... -_-

Discussion in 'Mental Health Disorders' started by Hae-Gi, Jun 30, 2007.

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  1. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I felt quite good, before, but now I feel SO depressed... among other things due to reading about how rape is considered good by the Bible. How can anyone see rape as good? It is the worst thing that exists, yet people base a religion on a text that views it positively. It appears it doesn't matter what they believe in, as long as they believe. How can people be so pathetic?

    I should get drunk and go to bed... I can take from my father's alcohol... might have to take just a little from every flask, however, so he doesn't notice.
  2. Reki

    Reki Well-Known Member

    The Bible was written by people quite some time ago and whatever the intention for its creation was it's pretty safe to say that it might deviate from its creators' visions a little, people do make mistakes after all. And since it was written by a ton of different people their ideas won't all necessarily tie in with eachother so some...contradictions could always make their way in there, naturally.

    Still, maybe you might've missed something or misunderstood what it was you read, plain rape is pretty bad no matter how you look at it. I haven't read the entire Bible though so maybe you are right, that would be a bit disturbing though.

    Oh, and alcohol is bad for you, pepsi tastes way better. =p
  3. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I read it at www.evilbible.com.

    I didn't drink alcohol... only one flask was opened, so he would've noticed. I really need to buy my own vodka... he didn't even have vodka, too.

    I did in fact drink Pepsi, instead... Pepsi Max, to be precise. It does indeed taste better, but it doesn't work for sleep. It contains aspartame, though, and you can end up getting stroke, with too much of that, instead. Not that alcohol is better, by far. I barely ever drink alcohol, though... the last and only time I got drunk was almost two years ago. Although I've drank enough to be very unsober, once, in order to be able to sleep.

    I need to get out of this house, by the way... my mother is really pissed at something that one of my sister's done... and my father is, of course, unsober, as usual.

    I am so depressed, now... yesterday was a terrific day, in comparison.
  4. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I don't understand why I always have to be guilty, as well, regardless what it's about... I haven't done anything wrong, yet it is as if I have. It's always this way and always has; especially from my father. When I move to my apartment, I'll avoid my parents, the best I can... they don't like me, anyway. Not even my mother does.

    I'm so lonely in this world. No girlfriend, no friends, not even my mother likes me. I have nothing. If only I just understood Japanese... I know I'd be happier in Japan.
  5. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Obviously rape is wrong, but I've heard many complaints from non-Christians
    that the bible teaches that rape is ok in some circumstances. What do you
    think about this complaint?

    Genesis 19:6-8
    Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my
    friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

    Numbers 31:17-18
    Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29
    If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.


    There are many mentions of types of rape in the Bible, but part of the problem in distinguishing them is that the Bible generally uses the normal word for "have sex with" to describe "rape." Typically, it is the circumstances surrounding the sex that distinguish it as rape. In short, rape is never okay. I'll address each of the passages you mentioned individually, as well as one you didn't that pertains to the subject.

    Genesis 19:6-8
    This is clearly an instance in which Lot offered his daughters to be raped by the mob, but this does not justify the rape. Rather, it is an example of the weakness and sin for Lot. Although the New Testament describes him as "righteous Lot" (2 Pet. 2:7), it does not do so on the basis of this action but on the basis of his torment at living in their society. In other words, his conscience more than his actions bore witness to his righteousness. His offering of his daughters itself was an act of desperation, and a wrong act at that - and I would challenge any father to deny that fact. Can you imagine offering your own daughter to be raped? Doesn't every fiber of your being rise up and fight that idea? Well, that was supposed to be how the original audience reacted to this information too. They weren't supposed to think, "Oh, then I guess it's okay." They were supposed to react the way every father in the world should react, whether regenerate or not. They were supposed to be horrified and to think, "What!? You mean even the 'righteous' people in the city behaved that way? No wonder God wiped them out!"

    Notice also that Lot was not so righteous that God would have spared the city for his sake. In Genesis 18:17ff. God tells Abraham that he will spare the city for the sake of the righteous in it, but the angels warn Lot that if he does not flee he will be destroyed along with the city (Gen. 19:15-16). This is an indication that Lot himself was not all that righteous; he did not "earn" his salvation from destruction, but God was compassionate to him anyway. That he and his family were less than noble is also indicated by the fact that his wife disobeys the angels and is turned into a pillar of salt (Gen. 19:26), and by the fact that his daughters get him drunk and sleep with him (Gen. 19:30-38). Lot was "righteous", but not because he was pure.

    Further, the Bible itself offers a bit of commentary on this episode in the literary parallel between Genesis 19 and Judges 19 (the rape of the Levites concubine). In that story, the events are quite similar and the literary parallels are many and explicit. The clear intent of the author was to recall the story of Genesis 19. But the events of Judges 19 are all the more terrible because they take place in Israel (v. 30) rather than in Gentile territory. There the rape is clearly perceived as grossly wicked - so wicked that the refusal of the town to submit to discipline provokes a war (chs. 20-21). The point for our discussion is simply that the obvious literary parallel portraying the rape of the Levite's concubine as sinful depends upon Lot's act in Genesis 19 being sinful.

    Numbers 31:17-18
    These virgins were not to be raped; they were to be married. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 gives a fuller description of this law.

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29
    First, it is important to recognize that these very verses prescribe a punishment of sorts for the crime of rape, namely the payment of a fine and indissoluble marriage to the raped woman (marriages were normally dissoluble under the proper circumstances). Second, the verses immediately preceding these indicate the death penalty for rapists and adulterers. Vv. 23-24 describe consensual sex with an engaged woman, in which case there is no rape and both parties are put to death. Vv. 25-27 describe the rape of an engaged woman, in which case the lack of the woman's consent is indicated by the fact that the man "forces" her, and the assumption that she cried out for help. Here the rapist is put to death.

    It is in this context of having already established that rape is a capital offense that vv. 28-29 then speak of a man who has probably non-consensual sex with an unengaged virgin. The crime here is a slightly lesser crime because there is no offended husband. Moreover, the lesser penalty also reflects an attempt to mitigate the damages of the crime. That is, in this case the offender and the woman are both eligible for marriage, and it is unlikely that anyone will want to marry the woman because she is no longer a virgin. She will thus have no one to provide for her later in life, and will have not chance of posterity. This would increase her victimization. Practically speaking, the offending man is more use to her alive than dead. He is allowed to live in order that he might make lifelong restitution to the woman.

    Isaiah 13:16
    This text indicates that the armies of the Lord rape the wives of those God judges. But even this does not validate rape. Rather, the point is that those who act wickedly toward the Lord's people will themselves be treated wickedly by foreign invaders. Just as in the case of the men God ordained to kill Jesus, however, the rapists in this case will not go unpunished. God will judge them as well, despite the fact that he uses their wickedness for his own ends.

    answer by Ra McLaughlin
  6. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    :clap: :yes: :hug:
  7. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    What a load of bullshit. Can't believe I managed to read it all.

    Since it's all a load of crap, I'll just comment briefly.

    That rape doesn't mean rape is total bullshit; they take virgins, that obviously are unwilling, and have their way with them. How can this not be seen as rape - yes, as in rape - unless you're simply just stupid or in complete denial of the truth?

    How is it right to act out revenge, in the form of rape, or any other way, against a whole people, when only some of them were guilty? Also, do you mean that in a scenario where a man rapes a woman, the man of the raped woman has the right to rape the rapists woman, even though she's completely innocent? It certainly sounds like it! You said it right there at the end. It requires a great deal of evil to think in those terms, certainly.
  8. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Um, it never said rape was not rape. It said that the virgins were MARRIED, not raped.

    And it never said rape out of revenge was O.K. They will also be judged by God.

    Read it again if you dodn't quite get it the first time round.
  9. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    Okay, I did indeed read that wrong. However, them being handed out, or captured, to be "married," is still rape. I'm sure it might not be in select few circumstances, but overall, it is rape.

    As for the revenge thing, it was, after all, god who sent out "his" hordes of divine rapist people. How can god then suddenly not take responsibility, and claim they will be judged, when "he" was the one that sent them out on this rape mission, to begin with? I guess this Bible god is not just evil, but completely lacking in credibility, as well.
  10. gentlelady

    gentlelady Staff Alumni

    Words can be twisted around to mean whatever you want them to mean. In the case of the website you went to, they are trying to portray the bible as evil. Of course they are going to lead you to believe that it condones all things bad. You have to remember it was actually written by men and much has changed in the various translations of things from the Hebrew language. Some may have been written in Aramaic. I caution you not to believe everything you read from sites such as those.
  11. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I find it hard to believe that killing a whole village, except for the virgin girls that shall be taken captive and handed out, and when there aren't enough of them, more are kidnapped, could be a mistranslation.

    Same goes for many other things written in the Bible, but I only have a very limited patience with reading all this evil, religious gibberish. It depresses me immensely, thinking about how people base their beliefs on texts that clearly are evil.

    Mistranslations is no excuse; make a new religion, then, that upholds your beliefs.
  12. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Gentlelady is right on this I think. Also try to keep in mind that the seeming harshness of God and His laws in the Old Testament are intended to contrast sharply with the mercy, civility and forgiveness we find in the New Testament. This was the only way God could ensure that we fully understood His mercy and love. The Old Testament God was the same God, but He had to prepare His children for Jesus, lest we take His mercy for granted (which we still do today anyway).

    It's like when you are a child, and your father disciplines you sometimes very harshly, or there were seeming contradictions in what he said and did. For example, if you got caught drinking and your dad totally freaked on you, grounding you for 3 months, but HE would have a few drinks no problem. Now this seems harsh, even in retrospect. But as you get older, and talk to your dad as an adult, you realize that he was trying to scare you off alcohol entirely, so that as you got older and more mature, you would be able to drink in moderation, like an adult. If he had been more cavalier about it in the first place, you may have mistaken his attitude as permission to do whatever the heck you wanted, and you would have been more likely to repeat the offense. As we get older, our parents become our friends and we are able to see how right they were about certain things, not because of how they acted at the TIME, but because of what those actions ended up teaching you once you grew older and gained perspective.

    The Old Testament God is like that. He was a God to fear. He was a God that people went through hours upon hours of ritual and sacrifice and cleansing in order to please, to be perfect, and they STILL couldn't do it! God knew that! When Jesus came, the people were just shocked and relieved when He said, okay, now that you understand that NONE of you is perfect, that NONE of you is capable of following these minute laws and details without screwing up (how frustrating for them back then!), I am going to tell you that I have come here so that you do not have to be perfect, because I will be perfect for you. In fact, I will be SO perfect, that it will make up for ALL of your imperfections. He also came to tell us we no longer needed to be afraid of God, that God is a God of love.

    What you need to understand is that back then, there were tons of pagans and polytheists running around. People were NOT willing to accept a God who did not have sometimes seemingly barbaric, harsh demands. In fact, it was one Hell of a stretch just to get them to believe in only ONE God, and they even failed at that! They NEEDED rituals, strict rules and punishments in place in order to preserve their faith, or they would have gone to another religion/God(s) that provided just that (remember the story of the golden calf?). God had to prime the people before they were willing to accept a God of love and mercy.

    They had to become so SICK of following seemingly arbitrary rules and punishments before they were psychologically and spiritually ready to accept the true nature of God, who only requires belief and love from his people.

    If you take random verses from the Bible and misapply them, then you don't get the whole story. The Bible must be taken in its entirety, as the history of the process by which God drew His people near to Him. The New Testament could not and WOULD not have happened without the Old to contrast it with.
  13. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    You can NOT compare drinking problems with rape!

    Also, regardless if this Biblical god has become good instead of evil (or satan, which god was in the old testament), there would still NEVER be ANY excuse for what "he" had done! God couldn't be excused for "HIS" ordered rapings, just like Hitler was responsible of what the nazis did, as well, even though he might never have done any of it himself, and just like rapists should never be forgiven for their actions.
  14. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    Fuck, there are some grammatical errors in my last two replies, that I cannot correct, due to limitations of the software on my mobile. Just need to point out I am aware of them.
  15. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    If you think for one moment that I was comparing alcohol to rape, then I really don't know what to say. If you cannot take this argument to a higher level, then nothing I can do or say can make you understand that the point I was making was merely that our parents do and say things we cannot comprehend, which we are later able to put into perspective. Everyone knows rape is wrong, most especially God.

    Firstly, God never "ordered" any rapings. He was predicting what armies of His people would do, i.e. plundering, killing and raping-all things that people do of their OWN volition during war. These were the general laws of war back then. God was not advocating or condoning this in any way, He was simply saying what would most likely happen to the enemies of the Hebrews.

    Bear with me here. The Hebrews had God on their side because they were the chosen people, to whom he appeared and freed from slavery in Egypt. This in NO WAY means that he condoned all of their actions. On the contrary, the Old Testament is FULL of times when God punished them for their wickedness, and the rapists and plunderers were no doubt punished for their actions.

    Back to the parent analogy: As a parent, would you not be on your child's side no matter what they did? If your son was getting into trouble with a boy at school (let's say because this boy was persecuting him endlessly, like in the Bible), whose side would you be on? Your son's of course! What if you knew that if this boy kept tormenting your son, your son would retaliate and probably eventually beat this other boy up? Well, as a good father, you have probably already told your son that beating people up is wrong, yes? Much like God already told the Hebrews that rape was a capital offense, punishable by DEATH. But, as a father, you know deep down that if push comes to shove, your son will probably ignore your warnings about violence and hurt/fight this boy. Now the question is, do you WARN the other boy? Maybe, maybe not, but God sure as Hell did...that's what this Bible quote (Isaiah 13, 13-16) is all about! God is saying, "Look, if you provoke my people to war, the things that happen in war WILL happen to your people, because my people are not perfect, and that is what they will probably do...so you better cut it out". This is just like telling the other boy, "If you keep it up with my son, he will probably try and kick the shit out of you". You are still supporting your child and your child's right to make his own choices.

    Now, when your son comes home after the fight, what do you do? You say, "I understand why you did what you did, and I understand that you were just trying to defend yourself, but I told you fighting is wrong and now you are going to be punished." SAME THING WITH GOD.

    He never condoned rape in any way.

    And for the record, the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are no different...the only difference is that He could not fully reveal His plan to us and who He truly was until we were ready to accept it. God is and always has been the same loving creator. WE are the ones who have changed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2007
  16. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Also, you may think that taking your enemies wives and marrying them after a war is tantamount to rape, but try to see it from an historical perspective. First of all, people pretty much never married for love, only for alliances and political reasons. In a war, ALL men of suitable age would fight to the death, meaning that after the war was over, there were no more men in a certain town, just women with families who now had nothing to do and nowhere to go. Strange as it may seem, taking them into your home, giving them an inheritance, a place of honor in a new community, providing for their now fatherless children...all of these things were considered to be the most merciful way to handle it.

    The Bible even stipulates that the woman is to be given a month to grieve (which was a lot longer back then, considering people died at 40), and that if, by then, she is not willing to accept him as her husband, he was to let her go her own way, with no ill-will whatsoever.

    Of course this sounds strange, but if you put yourself into the time period, the marriage offer was actually a blessing for these women.
  17. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    Blessing? In need of support for their children? Weren't they virgins? They were in the part I was talking about, at least. What was the "blessing" for those virgins kidnapped on the street, so the "men of god" would have enough women for every man to rape?

    I don't buy your parent analogy. To begin with, I don't think you always should side with your children (if you have children). Sometimes, however, you should, like in your example, since the child would do what was right; thus no punishment should happen. Furthermore, "god's people" (why the hell now god would choose such an overall imperfect people) are a collection of different individuals, not a single one that may well be a completely good or completely evil individual (or something ini between). Your analogy fails right there.

    I'm not going to discuss this, anymore. It is obvious you will not change your mind, much like all other Christians I've met. There will always be ways to "interpret" the Bible. Anything, obviously, can be seen as holy. Go ahead and get the last word, where you'll find new ways to twist things. If I reply in this topic again, it will be due to depression.
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