A short message, another aid?

Discussion in 'Mental Health Disorders' started by Krem, Dec 26, 2009.

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  1. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    (Written in Notepad, the format might be weird.)
    Before we begin, this is written by and for a Westerner-
    Those of us in (Many parts of) Europe, or the States. I will
    assume that you are actually depressed, that is, without a
    specific reason, and that can be faced, you should do that if
    so. Yes, life often sucks, but we're here to deal with that, yes?
    I will also assume that this is not your first try. Maybe you've
    gone to a therapist, maybe you can't see a therapist, maybe
    you're on meds and they're not working(But keep taking
    them, eventually you and your doctor will find one/a
    combination of them that work. Patience is a virtue for a
    reason), maybe you're not on meds and can't see yourself
    going on them. Also, I am not religious. I do not have faith in
    any higher power, souls or spirits, astrology or karma. But,
    my reccomendation, is that you see the local priest. Maybe
    you're not comfortable with him, you can go to the next
    town etc., or maybe you're in a large city. But, a priest is a
    priest. As long as he is genuine, he'll most likely help you. I
    just find smaller-town priests more homely, more a part of
    the town. Anyway, most modern-day priests I've found are
    priests because of their honest want, their need, to help
    people. They have sympathy, patience, and are there for you.
    Go to one of them, and ask for his time. Don't go during peak
    hours, go during the day when you believe he'll be least busy
    with.. whatever it is they do (Cue peadophilic jokes). Ask for
    some time, talk with them, ask for guidance. Even if you do
    not believe in whatever religion he's teaching, many find
    comfort in the services. They do, after all, preach goodness
    and such. I'm not asking you to pray, to sing psalms or chant
    holy rites, I'm just asking you to go and talk to a priest,
    maybe stay there for a few hours. It is often soothing,
    calming, to be in a holy-house, to see supportive people who
    do their best without expecting anything in return (Except
    maybe join their god one day, but whatever). Maybe you're
    uncomfortable doing this, but atleast you have tried.
    On a final note, if you are a teenager, like yours truly, the
    depression is most likely caused by hormones, just like the
    sluttiness and stupidity of your peers. The fact that you are
    not whining on the internet, and are actually silently seeking
    aid shows that you have enough common sense to grow up to
    a decent person. I'm not promising that life will be good, or
    that all your problems will go away, but I'm saying that you
    should keep going. You're probably sick of that sentance, and
    wishing for some cure, but that is as good as it gets. Your
    body will correct itself, once it has stopped growing for the
    most part, and you will be, most likely, glad you stuck
    around. No, I won't say that the world is beautiful, or that
    there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm saying that
    things will be better. If you're sick of it all, and are ready to
    kill yourself, a final message I will send you- Most religions
    not only frown upon suicides, but promise punishment for it.
    Even if all you have is a spoonfull of doubt somewhere in
    your mind, keep it in mind.
  2. nok1888

    nok1888 Well-Known Member

    For someone who doesnt believe in anything you dont half do a lot of preaching about it!

    Oh and about the eternal punishment, if you dont believe then you've nothing to fear do you.

    P.s Its here we are punished, we're already in hell
  3. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    I 'preach' that seeing someone who works at bringing joy, and peace, and so on, to people might be good for you. And if you'd've read the post, I said
    But, honestly, if this is the reply I get for trying to help people, I should not bother, Mr. "Senior Member" nok.
  4. TBear

    TBear Antiquities Friend

    Whether it is a priest, rabbi, minister, friend or therapist...

    It is unconditional acceptance, caring and patient listening that helps many get thru the difficulties...

    As for the eternal punishment stuff...if that helps someone, to think twice about ending their life - I am all for it; whatever can help someone stop and wait out the intensity of pain until some relief is found - for me it is realizing what impact my death would have on my children - when I am in the worst pain, I don't care what lies beyond life - it must be better than what I have at that point; I do care how it will hurt those I love...

    The key is hanging on until the pain lessens somehow, someway

    Suicide is the answer chosen when the emotional pain gets to be too much to handle and an escape is desparately grasped for, any help is better than none.
  5. boo

    boo Well-Known Member

    I smell i troll
  6. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    First of all, I know you apologized for the formatting, but PLEASE. At least throw in some paragraph breaks or something.

    No argument here. All I can say is that "dealing with it" comes in many guises, not all of them what others may expect.

    And what exactly is a priest's area of expertise, such that they are automatically and uniquely qualified to help with depression? Might not a sympathetic butcher, baker, or candlestick-maker do just as well? A priest's profession is scripture and theology- he knows it front-to-back and upside-down, no doubt. But surely such "knowledge" is not of much use to the irreligious and atheistic, is it?

    An interesting variation on Pascal's Wager, and it suffers from all the same weaknesses. It may just as well turn out that God rewards suicides with their own private paradise, and punishes those who die of natural causes. The ancient Celts believed something similar to this. So how is one to know? It's hard to hedge your bets if all possibilities are equally likely.

    You'd rather we just unquestioningly agree with every word you say? It's not like we haven't all gotten the whole "don't give up, I promise it gets better" spiel before.
  7. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Because priests, as I have come to know, deal with people. That is their job. They teach and guide people through life. Although one may not believe what they teach, it often has a simple message. "Be good to others" or somesuch. No, they are not strictly educated, I believe, but it is a large part of the job. For an example, when my aunt killed herself, a priest spoke and guided the family, mostly my mum who was her sister, and her three orphan daughters. The priest visited them, visited us, to help us through the grief they had. Catholic(?) priests, I believe deal with confessions, yes? You speak to them about something, and they speak back, give you non-judging words of advice. And then tell you to pray, ofcourse, but that's just for the guilt, to make you believe that you're "cleansed". But that's good for the spirit, yes?

    And about the "Pascal's Wager" thing, that was about proofing a god. I am saying, if you are like me, that even if you see no reason for it, there might be some doubt lurking in your mind (The same place that holds all the monsters, demons and other things one might fear are stalking you in the dark). Seeing as most people today are of the monotheist(?) religion, which all, I believe, frown upon suicides, I figured it was worth a shot (Suicide bombers, I will not touch on. I have not read the Quar'an, or however one spells it).

    And I simply felt the first reply was... hostile, I guess. Something like that.
    And I apologise for the lack of 'paragraph breaks'. I simply think, and type down what I think, it is almost without structure. Plus, I couldn't really find a good place to do it. :-/
  8. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    But my question is why a priest would know how to "deal with people" and comfort them more than, say, a plumber would. Yes, their job involves speaking to people and giving life advice, but nothing about their training or background necessarily gives them an edge in this arena. The clergy originally took on that role because it was traditionally assumed that Scripture held the answers to all of life's problems, and therefore someone who was an expert on Scripture would be in a position to relay those answers to the laity. But if you don't happen to believe that Scripture holds any particular wisdom or truth, that line of reasoning falls flat.

    Actually, it's about hedging your bets and believing in God based on the idea that you have "nothing to lose and everything to gain" if you do, and may face dire consequences if you don't. I was pointing out that your argument about suicide follows the same logic: there just might be a god who punishes suicides, so your best bet is to not do it. But if you're aware of the fallacies in Pascal's wager, you should see that most of them also apply to the suicide argument.
  9. 1izombie

    1izombie Well-Known Member

    I guess u never been to confession... its very ritualized and there is no back and forth ...no advice is given unless u count contrition as advice...bless me father for i have sinned i kill 1000 people... thats ok my child all u have to do is say 5 hail marys and an our father and ur all good with god...thats what confession is all about... religion does more harm then good, the world would be a better place without it...
  10. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Actually, I believe you're wrong there. When we were more primitive, we would kill for, for an example, being rude. Seing as life was shorter then, we did not see a big issue for that. But now, with life being long, some might say even too long, a loss of life is a big thing. Although it is hardly needed now, religions through the years have been used to control people, which, you should know, is important to a society. Without religion, I doubt we would have established what we have established, in terms of government. If the people believe you have a connection with the gods, they will do what you say, if only out of fear. Same idea to why you'd try not to anger an older sibling, or the physically stronger, or the group which outnumbers yours.

    And most of the 'bad things' you know of that were done in the name of religion just used that as a cover. Some, ofcourse, are motivated by religion, a greater part comes from things other than religion.

    And remember, there are people without morals, in the general view. They can inflict a great deal of harm without breaking any laws. If there was no religion, we would accept it completely, for the only rules would be the laws, no moral doctrine would tell us that it is bad, for, truly, there is no 'bad' or 'good', only perception. I have rambled on too far.
  11. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    Absolutely false. There IS such a thing as secular morality. Religion is not necessary to know right from wrong, and in fact, it's not even a very good moral compass to begin with.
  12. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    There are cultures where a thing is acceptable, where somewhere else it is not, and is even considered a crime. And that is without religion. Morals, ettiques(?), and general social behaviour changes with time. If I were to ask anyone how they can say one thing is more right than others, they would be unable to answer without saying "it just is" eventually. Logic would tell us that saying that is false, but it would be an oxymoron, but still not moot. Logic can not create morals, ettiques(?) change with time, place and group.

    But this is all offtopic-- A priest can help, formally educated or not, by simply listening, showing support. Similar to this forum, except it's better.

    I sometimes make semi-jokes. I find them amusing.
  13. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    Of course moral standards change with time, place, and culture. It does not follow, however, that morals cannot be analyzed, derived, and evaluated based on logic and first principles. We all do this, every single day, whether we know it or not. Furthermore (and more to the point), supposing we were to seek a single, unalterable moral standard which would apply to all times and situations, the existence of religion is not a solution to this problem. Religious moral teachings are only "correct" if you arbitrarily declare them so by fiat, and then we're right back where we started.

    Sure, a priest may be more helpful than SF simply because he's an actual, real-life person rather than an electronic message board, but you still haven't explained why the fact that he's a priest is of any value whatsoever. Again, why would you go talk to a priest instead of a trained counselor, or any other person for that matter? What does the clergy have to offer that no one else does?
  14. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    A) They're free.
    B) They're warm, not proffessional. You're not thinking about them calculating your replies, measuring your mind.
    C) They're simply being friendly, they're not getting paid to listen to you.

    And I said that religion (And I don't mean christianity or such "modern" religion, I'm talking back when we worshipped fire and such) helped us build morals, form bigger leadership, and so on.

    And, yes, morals can be analysed and such, but if you get to the core, they are irrelevant, and downright "wrong".

    I'm going to quote an example, although not directly, painfuly obviously related, it's not a leap of faith to see the connection to the current conversation.

    See where he went wrong?
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2009
  15. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    None of which have anything to do with being a priest- you can get that treatment from anyone willing to listen. And for the second two, I'll just say that I've been to maybe half a dozen different counselors and psychologists, and all of them have been exceedingly warm and friendly, without exception. Plus, I think it's a huge leap of faith (if you'll pardon the phrase) to assume that a priest will automatically possess these qualities anyway.

    As far as morals, you're essentially restating the Is-ought problem, and I agree 100%. Our morals are based on subjective values and principles which are widely, but not universally held, and I don't think I ever said otherwise. So I'm not sure what you're arguing here, exactly.

    Indeed- it was when he said "It just is", which is not the case at all. Something like "Because most people hold these ideas to be self-evident, and I assumed that you did as well, and so I made a simple moral claim based on that reasonable assumption." would have been closer. He didn't state this assumption because he presumed it to be obvious- we do this all the time when we say things like "killing babies is wrong".
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2009
  16. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Neither am I- Let's just focus on the priests.

    It's because they are there. You may not have someone willing to listen. That's why I'm reccomending it. Say you have no friends. Say you/they are uncomfortable about the subject. Maybe you feel silly speaking about your feelings (I are man I have no feelings, ugg ugg etc.).

    And I have never heard of a cold small-town priest. And, if they were cold and uncaring, they'd not get a large following, would they? ;o .. what do they call it again? Group? Followers? Disciples? Flock? Murder? Herd? No matter.
  17. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    If it's just a question of convenience and availability, then I agree. As long as there's no implication of special expertise.

    And I've never heard of one either- I grew up Episcopalian in a VERY small town, and our local priest was/is an exceedingly kind individual. I'm just saying it's not out of the question. And if you happen to live in the big city, well, best of luck. ;)
  18. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Offtopic, but it's annoying me-- Your signature, the first line. Is "strait" a typo for straight?
  19. Mortal Moon

    Mortal Moon Well-Known Member

    Nah- "strait" is an old word meaning narrow or constricted (it's where "straitjacket" comes from). It's the last four lines of a poem called Invictus, which I've always been fond of.
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