An atheist professor & his student

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by muslim, Nov 16, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. muslim

    muslim Well-Known Member

    An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty.

    He asks one of his new Muslim students to stand and…..

    Professor: You are a Muslim, aren’t you, son?

    Student : Yes, sir.

    Prof: So you believe in God?

    Student : Absolutely, sir.

    Prof: Is God good?

    Student : Sure.

    Prof: Is God all-powerful?

    Student : Yes.

    Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn’t.
    How is this God good then? Hmm?

    (Student is silent.)

    Prof: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fella (Fellah - A peasant in an Arabic-speaking country, esp. in Egypt ). Is God good?

    Student :Yes.

    Prof: Is Satan good?

    Student : No.

    Prof: Where does Satan come from?

    Student : From…God…

    Prof: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

    Student : Yes.

    Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything. Correct?

    Student :Yes.

    Prof: So who created evil?

    (Student does not answer.)

    Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?
    All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

    Student :Yes, sir.

    Prof: So, who created them?

    (Student has no answer.)

    Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son…Have you ever seen God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

    Student : No , sir.

    Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God?
    Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

    Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

    Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

    Student : Yes.

    Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science say your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

    Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

    Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

    Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student : No sir. There isn’t.

    (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

    Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit (-) 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

    (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

    Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

    Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

    Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light….But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

    Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

    Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

    Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

    Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality.
    You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite,
    something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully under stood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

    Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

    Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

    Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

    (The class is in uproar.)

    Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

    (The class breaks out into laughter.)

    Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?…..No one appears to have done so.

    So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

    (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
    unfathomable.)

    Prof: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

    Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.
    That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
     
  2. Abacus21

    Abacus21 Staff Alumni

    Prof: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fella (Fellah - A peasant in an Arabic-speaking country, esp. in Egypt ). Is God good?

    * *

    It may mean what you've said it to mean - an Egyptian Arabic-speaking peasant - but, it's also slang for a male person.

    Also, I appreciate that you're trying to show us that 'the way' to live, is through Islam, but, while that is your belief, it isn't everyone else's on here.

    I am beginning to get a bit tired of your posts, trying to convert people, it seems.

    I appreciate you're trying to show us that what you believe in, is the right way to go, but it isn't appreciated by everyone here.

    How about taking these comments on board please??
     
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    I'm not sure your argument is valid. Evolution is a theory. A theory requires that you can predict future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and is capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through observation. For example evolution can be falsified if the fossil evidence is uncovered in a different order as predicted by the theory.

    Ok, you can’t directly observe God. However we can’t directly observe atoms but we can still predict how they will behave and then test our predictions. I’m not questioning your religious beliefs just pointing out that matters of faith are completely different from scientific theories and that comparisons between the two are more likely to confuse than produce any real insights.
     
  4. Syd

    Syd Guest

  5. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    Yes, atheist hear this idiotic garbage all the time. What your prety much saying is "you cant disprove god" . We also cant disprove leprechauns of invisible unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters. Does that mean they exist? No. Their is no evidence for any of those beings. Every one should know that they are ridiculus and arent compatable modern human knowledge and science. Religion especially middle eastern religions are dangerous, false, and stupid and people need to evolve out of these primitive beliefs.
     
  6. Allo..

    Allo.. Well-Known Member

    I liked what you said =) - muslim i mean.

    I am a Christian, I am not Islam, and i do not agree with all the things the Islam religions says, but i do agree with what you posted. The part about the brain tho, that bit was just rude and funny, not actuly true, because people have seen brains etc, unless your talking about seeing the brain working..

    But anyway, I liked it =)
     
  7. xan

    xan Chat Buddy

    Just wanted to say that you can do CCT (think thats the accroynom.. i've learnt too many) to see someone's brain. And about the cold and dark thing... the professor is an idiot in your story, the words cold and dark are as real as anything else. They are only lables, everything we measure is only relative, it just so happens that the two choices of light and heat are relative to their absense, for example something such as electronegativity or electrode potentials can have posative and negative as can the number line... something we are all used to, but there is no measurable end or begining to the number line thus we centre it around zero. Cold is merely a word we use to describe something as being a temperature that causes the nerves in our body to react in a way that tells us it is an environmet we can not comfortably live. Darkness is only when we see there is not enough light to be absorbed and reflected for our eyes to identify objects. Therefore your argument is one that is totally circumstancial to believing that the student is entirely correct, which he is not. Tell me...

    If God is love
    Love is blind
    Stevie Wonder is blind
    Therefore Stevie Wonder is God... surely?

    However a scientist would argue that these statements are therefore not always true, SW is blind, but is love always blind and is god really love? Personally I think that what all you people in organised religion like to call god is a force that you and your leader can not possibly comprehend, it is not a he, a she, a single being, it is a power that run through everything, like atoms make up all of us from neutrons, electrons and protons... i wouldn't like to speculate any further into it other than to say that there is no need to follow every word of religious books and jump on one leg whilst eating an oragne just because one commandment read backwards says to do so. Those books, if written directly from the word of god were still written by man who is flawed is evil and manipulative, who is not good and pure and has been trusted to them for millenia, thus i will not believe there is no alterations to them.... if you bothered to read this thank you... sorry i just felt like ranting...
     
  8. helena

    helena Staff Alumni

    Well, I bothered to :) till the very last word. Mutch interesting,
    if I could find my way through words like that I wouldn't have said it any different. thank you xan :)
    :hug:
    helena
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2006
  9. poison

    poison Well-Known Member

    evolution is bogus in my opinion. and muslim, this is not the place to express your religios beliefs; since that is all you've done.
     
  10. Syd

    Syd Guest

    When you say evolution is bogus, are you referring to the theory that early humans are linked to earlier types of primates? That's just one evolutionary theory, but evolution itself as a scientific process has already been proven. Amino acids developing into proteins, mutations, natural selection, genetic drift, etc.. Denying evolution itself is like denying gravity. I also find it unusual that many religious fundamentalists are so fervent in their opposition to evolution when many theistic scientists have no problems remaining true to faith while still acknowledging scientific laws. Hey, whatever makes people happy. :wink:
     
  11. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    Yeah evolution has tons of evidence. Just observing nature and seeing how animals adapt and evolve defenses and weapons and invent ways to survive you can see that evolution is true.
     
  12. consciousinsane

    consciousinsane Well-Known Member

    I know not all of them are, but from time to time, our prayers are answered. What about those times when we really (truly) needed something, and thru amazing circumstances we received that need? Need an example? Several times in the past two years my family has been in financial struggles. Each time it gets to the point where we are so broke we are not going to be able to pay the bills a check comes in the mail, or a stranger will hand us money, or a family member will buy us supper. Do instances like these provide proof that God is true?
     
  13. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    It simply isn't worth trying to prove the existence of God, Philosophers and Theologians have been trying to do so for thousands of years and gotten nowhere.

    However, I like it when people share their religious experiences, as it provides some of us hope, and others of us simply something to think about. I kind of wished muslim had shared his experiences of God with us instead of trying to use what I considered to be flawed arguments and bad analogies. I've had many rich and rewarding experiences of God, but at the time my mate was schizophrenic so I'm not sure whether these were genuine or just sympathetic to his problems. They've not reoccurred since he died but that may be because the experience badly affected my relationship with God.

    Anyway I now think religious discussion is best when it's quite general, problems occur when people start quoting from particular relgious books, I'd like to think that God answers the prayers of Christians, Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics, no matter what your faith is, because if there is a God, then I'd like to think he loves everyone. Then again others would just point out that it appears that God hates everyone. So this doesn't really prove anything, which I think was my original point.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2006
  14. muslim

    muslim Well-Known Member

    thanks for ur note dear Ziggy
    i will begin to explain the concept of god in islam

    WAMY Series: On Islam No.9.Introduction
    God’s Attributes
    The Oneness of God
    The Believer’s Attitude

    Introduction

    It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word “god,” which can be made plural, as in “gods,” or made feminine, as in “goddess.” It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing, and nothing is comparable to Him. The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur’an, which is considered to be the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully and is not loving and kind. Nothing could be farther from the truth than this allegation. It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Qur’an begins with the verse ” In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate”. In one of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), we are told that “ God is more loving and kind than a mother to her dear child”.On the other hand, God is also Just. Hence, evildoers and sinners must have their share of punishment, and the virtuous must have God’s bounties and favors. Actually, God’s attribute of Mercy has full manifestation in His attribute of Justice. People suffering throughout their lives for His sake should not receive similar treatment from their Lord as people who oppress and exploit others their whole lives. Expecting similar treatment for them would amount to negating the very belief in the accountability of man in the Hereafter and thereby negate all the incentives for a moral and virtuous life in this world. The following Qur’anic verses are very clear and straightforward in this respect.

    Verily, for the Righteous are gardens of Delight, in the Presence of their Lord. Shall We then treat the people of Faith like the people of Sin? What is the matter with you? How judge you?

    Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human-beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.

    The concepts that God rested on the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, and that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.

    The unique usage of Allah as a personal name of God is a reflection of Islam’s emphasis on the purity of the belief in God that is the essence of the message of all God’s messengers. Because of this, Islam considers associating any deity or personality with God as a deadly sin that God will never forgive, despite the fact that He may forgive all other sins.

    The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if He is of the same nature as they are, He will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing caused Him to come into existence, nothing outside Him causes Him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if He does not depend on anything for the continuance of His own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: “He is the First and the Last”.

    He is Self-sufficient or Self-subsistent, or, to use a Qur’anic term, Al-Qayyum The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He. also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.

    “ God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth” (39:62-63).

    “ No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and its repository” (11:16).

    God’s Attributes

    If the Creator is Eternal and Everlasting, then His attributes must also be eternal and everlasting. He should not lose any of His attributes nor acquire new ones. If this is so, then his attributes are absolute. Can there be more than one Creator with such absolute attributes? Can there be, for example, two absolutely powerful Creators? A moment’s thought shows that this is not feasible.

    The Qur’an summarizes this argument in the following verses:“ God has not taken to Himself any son, nor is there any god with Him: for then each god would have taken of that which he created and some of them would have risen up over others” (23:91).

    “ And why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they (heaven and earth) would surely go to ruin” (21:22).

    The Oneness of God

    The Qur’an reminds us of the falsity of all alleged gods. To the worshippers of man-made objects it asks:“ Do you worship what you have carved yourself” (37:95). “ Or have you taken unto yourself others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves” (13:16).

    To the worshippers of heavenly bodies it cites the story of Abraham:“ When night outspread over him, he saw a star and said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not the setters. When he saw the moon rising, he said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: If my Lord does not guide me, I shall surely be of the people gone astray. When he saw the sun rising, he said: This is my Lord; this is greater. But when it set, he said: O my people, surely I quit that which you associate, I have turned my face to Him who originated the heavens and the earth; a man of pure faith, I am not one of the idolators” (6:76-79).

    The Believer’s Attitude

    In order to be a Muslim, that is, to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief, later called Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah, is not enough. Many of the idolators knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this. But this was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah, one must add tawhid al-’uluhiyyah. That is, one acknowledges the fact that it is God alone who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

    Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.

    When faith enters a person’s heart, it causes certain mental states that result in certain actions. Taken together, these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said:“ Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds”.

    Foremost among those mental stated is the feeling of gratitude towards God, which could be said to be the essence of ibada (worship).

    The feeling of gratitude is so important that a non-believer is called ‘kafir’, which means ‘one who denies a truth’ and also ‘one who is ungrateful’.

    A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

    The Qur’an tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Qur’an:“ He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise” (59:22-24).

    “ There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious” (2:255).

    People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth.

    “ The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not “Three”. Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him — (He is) above having a son” (4:171).

    Back
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    Erm... I don't think you quite grasped the point about "experiences" there. Why don't you tell us something about yourself, your family, your hobbies? Do you think the wii will be better than the playstation 3? Do you care?

    Oh and please, please, please don't respond to this this message by quoting something or I will probably headbutt my keyboard thus proving that religion causes suffering in this world.
     
  16. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    Their is tons of different gods becuase primitive peoples and even modern peoples make up storys to explain how the world works. none of them are the same. the argument is pathetic. If god has the power to do miracles then why the hell doesnt he help every one? theirs millions of people in the world that believe in god and desperately need his help, but he doesnt do a damn thing. if he nhas the power then why doesnt he do any thing? hes either evil or he doesnt exist. no excuses.
     
  17. Syd

    Syd Guest

    I'm going to keep this thread going (and maybe risk annoying some people) but hey, as long as I don't get whipped with a bamboo stick, all is well.

    Anyway, I see your point here, although there is another common defense the faithful use to counter this. (not that I agree, just pointing out a common reply) They would say that God doesn't interfere because there is a reason for the suffering in the end, in order to achieve a greater good we may not be aware of initially. Basically, the point of this is to try to get people to think positively - if a woman's baby dies, she has to trust in God that this absence and pain will help her grow stronger and give her the ability to learn and help others after she deals with her own grief. It's kind of like a test. I don't know, or maybe there would be another reason.. you decide. Some people say we must bear the pains of life in order to feel the pleasures of heaven.

    It's kind of like saying: We can't truly know true happiness until we've suffered the ultimate lows. I understand that part of it, and believe me - the intentions are often good as far as morality is concerned. My main beef with these teachings is when people try to "put words or thoughts" into 'God' as if they would know what God's purpose is better than the rest of us. :p "Have faith in God... God says this-or-that is a sin.. God is always watching.. etc." It's basically a cop-out just to make the point that life isn't worth despairing about, because in the end everything will make sense.

    Perhaps everything will make sense in the end, but I would think of it more as a near-death epiphany and less as an afterlife, but hey - that's just my opinion. The morality aspect of most religions is admirable, but to be honest I don't *need* to explain these aspects of human morality with religion. I can defend any valuable law or principal of morality using simple logic, and I can also explain why fundamentalist religion is actually counter-productive in terms of being moral and helpful. I'm not going to do so here though, as it may be interpreted as offensive to some people. (though it is not, it's just thinking in practical terms) Optimism and human logic can help us out of rough periods in our lives, we don't need faith - I don't anyway.

    I guess the closest thing I have to a religion is Psychology, because learning about the human mind has helped me to face many difficult situations and I feel I've spiritually progressed (as have many others) due to this scientific field.
     
  18. No, I've never seen God but I have seen his followers who call themselves "Muslims" blow themselves up just to kill innocent people.

    No, I have never seen God but I have seen his Muslim servants take a camera and film the brutal decapitation of an innocent hostage.


    No, I have never God but I have seen his Muslim servants bury a woman
    in the ground up to her waist and then stone her to death

    No, I have never seen God but I have seen his Muslim servants....
     
  19. left behind

    left behind Guest

    i don't mean to sound condescending and ignorant but i believe that a belief in god is as ridiculous as a belief in Santa or the easter bunny.

    everyone is untitled to their opinion, if you need a belief in a god to justify your existence or to make your existence meaningful then you are untitled to it. I'm an atheist and in my opinion there is no god we do not have immortal souls. there is no proof either way and if I'm wrong it's a sad thing.

    But the way Muslim, your argument is completely null and void. you are saying that there must be a god by proving science is false. there is a lot more valid proof regarding evolution than any religion. an old book that is thousands of years old that uses promises immortality for it's followers and tells stories of physically impossible acts to push a set code of morals on impressionable people is not only, in my opinion not only ridiculous, but also redundant in modern society.

    Peace,
    LeFt

    P.S. if god dose ever show the world definate proof of his existance i will gladly eay my own hat, but its never going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  20. For some reason theists think that if they "prove" the existence of god that this god is somehow entitled to being worshipped.

    I worship nothing simply because it exists.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.