Another perspective... *Trigger Warning*

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by meaningless-vessel, May 17, 2013.

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  1. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Yes, I am one for having a viewpoint on a few things, that may seem different to others.

    I have already started piecing something together - and it has been cleared from senior authority on site, that I can place the link to it in here.

    This link is only the beginning - there is more to be added, and it will get a full review upon completion. I also have been forewarned to expect a number of differing responses, including those against what has been put together.

    Overall upshot is, I want to help make a difference.

    Please note - this has a warning in the thread title, it has the google 'adult content' rating to bypass, and a further warning before you start to read.

    If easily triggered, it might be advisable to not click...
  2. NYJmpMaster

    NYJmpMaster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    Thank you for sharing your opinions.
    While not disagreeing or agreeing with them I do want to remind everybody that as you have stated, they are lay opinions and not scientific or medical/psychological facts (fact is an abstract in this area anyway).

    On a side note, if you wanted to copy/paste your ideas here it would be easier to "discuss" ......
  3. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    I think it's possibly best left off-site - there are chances that a fairly high proportion of those who go on to read this will be affected in some way. I appreciate the thought though.
  4. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    I think it's unfair to simply characterize people suffering from stresses and traumas that prompt them, through a variety of ways, to harm themselves or cause damage to themselves as a way of coping, as being dismissive to receiving help or making better choices. Many people are aware and have full knowledge that what they do to themselves - whether it be a drinking addiction or an eating disorder or self-harm that leaves scarring and organ damage - will further complicate their problems. It's easy to simply say "those people know what they're doing and need to wake up and take some responsibility in their lives and change." Everything is easier said than done.

    The matter is that many have probably tried to change or tried to take different routes to have a better life, being fully aware of the consequences of their poor decisions, and perhaps those efforts were just futile. It's hard to become motivated and ambitious and determined in the face of constant disappointment and rejection that remind one of why they're in a lesser position than is ideal. Those are traits that require strength and endurance. And to certain people, those have been broken down in them, and they've simply given up. Yes, even as irrational as that may sound to you, it is a reality that people don't just fall flat on their face and stay there.

    I've seen individuals who tried and put 100% into making a change that you call "simple." But shit happens and not everyone is equipped to cope with certain obstacles. What's seemingly a "simple" change to you may be like climbing Mount Everest to another. "Why does that fat ass keep eating junk food and not exercising? Don't they know the consequence is just being even fatter?" Well, for one, everyone has a story. It's easy to be an outsider looking at someone in a poor position and judge them for how they look and behave without actually inquiring and wondering why they do destructive things in the first place. Perhaps that person has knowingly given up on improving their health; perhaps that person has nothing to look forward to as an impetus to care for himself anymore; perhaps that person... just really enjoys eating ice cream or isn't aware of the fundamentals of nutrition.

    Each person is responsible for themselves, but to minimize the effects of others around them, in their own family, circle of friends, living in or being part of negative environments, is to severely dismiss what are probably the strongest influences for their destructive behavior. Someone who is "self-deprecating" constantly, lives with low self-esteem, who is - as you say - "looking for [their] own flaws instead of making the most of what [they] do have," can recover depending on their surroundings and what peer support exists for them. Many people with low self-esteem who carry their heads down every day may not have any circle of friends to encourage them or compliment them or help them feel more positive about "what they do have."

    Positive reinforcement from others is a proven, effective contributor to higher personal self-esteem and confidence. For example, we know that working out with a buddy makes a lifestyle change to being physically healthier more likely to succeed than doing it alone. What if an individual literally has nothing? Sure, anyone can change their attitude, but it's not always about attitude, especially when one's appearance and personality are judged so harshly in public by strangers, leaving whatever attitude left in them diminished. I think for many it's a matter of available resources that can begin that change to suddenly being positive.

    If someone has, for example, deformities that cause their low self-esteem as a result of the way others perceive them, and ends up being rejected (another strong influence of depression that you note) from opportunities for employment, and normal healthy friendships and relationships, then can they simply wake up one morning and make a choice to have a better outlook with the knowledge that the world just rejects them at every turn? Again, merely dismissing environmental factors and telling someone "it's your fault for not changing" is not always an accurate assessment of someone's mental condition, particularly in a scenario such as this where changing is not a viable option without lucrative financial resources. And the cycle causing depression, causing destructive behaviors, causing a lack of regard for oneself continues; none of it having anything to do with lack of trying or lack of responsibility. For some, what would be a "better" life that would satisfy them is just not in the cards for them and they'd rather not deal with the gloomy prospect of not having access to that ideal. Enter suicidal ideation.

    I think that life, and how one copes with the dangers and the burdens that come with the package of living, is more complicated than you've said in your opinion. Not all people will cope with the same situation in the same way(s). Not all people are going to successfully make it out of precarious situations, whether they be caused by finances, relationships, unchangeable personality disorders, eating disorders, self-harm, or any of the other dozens of internal and external problems that contribute to depression and eventually suicide for some.

    Not everyone is built the same way to "simply" make dramatic changes in their choices and everyone knows that there's never anything simple about change. And one's cycle of destructive behaviors won't always be due to lack of responsibility, trying, or - as you say - being in denial and "most likely lying to themselves." That's a very, at the most, marginal understanding of the broad impacts of emotional distress and what is essentially a perpetual state of mental trauma.

    Mental health problems are as complex as each human being dealing with them. It's easy to make summary judgments - and "what to do to fix yourself" lists - about whole groups of people instead of looking from a micro perspective at why individuals with similar problems demonstrate completely different and opposite reactions to them. Solutions, just like those problems and choices, don't appear to be very incomplex at all then.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2013
  5. Theodora

    Theodora Well-Known Member

    unimportant obviously is a superior being who knows what is best for everyone.
  6. Butterfly

    Butterfly Resident SF Sims Enthusiast Staff Alumni SF Author SF Supporter

    It's easy to say, this is what you should be doing, but it is not all the easy. For a lot of people, mental illness cannot be cured and for these people it is about damage limitation and managing their conditions rather than finding some sort of miracle cure. There is not an answer to everyone's situation. I was reading what you were saying about people with eating disorders, did you know that wanting to be skinny and not liking the way they look is usually not the cause of someone developing an eating disorder? For a lot of people it comes from having OCD, and for whatever reason they can barely stand to put food in their mouth, and has physical repercussions such as being sick, fainting when they have to eat. It's not as simple as simply just putting food into ones mouth, knowing one should eat. People aren't stupid, they know what they are supposed to do, but fighting that physical and mental barrier is not all that easy.

    Overcoming abuse is not all that simple or easy. It's not just as simple as getting counselling after the event and talking candidly to everyone about it, especially if someone has experienced abuse over a number of years. The abuse will have shaped that persons personality which is why many people who have suffered abuse will then go on to form personality disorders and dissociative disorders. You can have all the counselling in the world but it doesn't change what happened to you, it doesn't change your personality, it doesn't stop you from having flashbacks and it doesn't stop you from dissociating. For some, it can cure PTSD, and people can go on to have normal lives but for others, it doesn't. Would you want to keep airing all your dirty laundry in public? No, it's NOT easy and it IS complicated. For others, they may have experienced abuse, thought they have dealt with it, but years later it comes back to haunt them, with no trigger, and it's not easy to confront.

    There are also other mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder and bipolar disorder. These disorders aren't simply cured by changing your perspective on life. These are chemical disorders and are not simple to treat. If you have to constantly face extreme abnormal highs and severe lows, add in a bit of psychosis and delusional beliefs, do you think that by "trying to have a positive outlook" is going to change the fact they are experiencing hell, with no triggers, with no reasons for their illness. It can drive people into trying to get the necessary help for themselves, damage limitation, but when you have experienced the same illness, with little relief despite exhausting all treatment options, it does take its toll on you and it does make it difficult to want to carry on and live the same hell every single day.

    For someone who has suffered depression themselves, suicidal and self harm thoughts themselves you are beginning to show little empathy for others. There are people here who are in genuine mental distress, going through treatment with little relief. No it is not as simple as just changing perspectives. It's not as simple as just distracting. do you know how much energy I have to put in to distracting myself when I have 100000000 uncontrollable thoughts, clashing, colliding, creating so much noise in my head that all my mental and physical efforts go onto just playing some measly game, barely concentrating just so I don't go and kill myself when I am feeling incredibly bad? It's not easy, it's not simple, it is complicated.

    Yes there are some people who do absolutely nothing to change their situation for themselves, but for whatever reason their mental anguish is preventing them. It doesn't make their pain any less than someone who has done everything to change their life for the better. Pain is pain. Pain is what the person says it is, whether it's emotional, mental or physical. You have become so obsessed with finding reasons for peoples mental anguish, that in the process you have become unempathetic, and have forgotten the reason why people are here in the first place.

    Love ya to pieces Gary, but this attitude has got to change. It's not very helpful to others, and it's not helpful for yourself :hug:
  7. snarrylover

    snarrylover Well-Known Member

    I think the viewpoints of the blog are idealistic, yet simple. If only things could be that easy, if only we could think that way. You want us all to be strong independent people, to have the courage to say "no", the strength to force ourselves to look the other way, and the power to control our thoughts. It would be great to be that person. But it's unrealistic. Just like we all have different physical features, we all have different thought processes. Just because Person A can pick themselves up after a bad relationship doesn't mean Person B can do the same. Just because Person A can go out and join a group and make friends doesn't mean Person B can, too.

    I can't answer the rest because victim blaming makes me so angry.

    EDIT: Though I would like to add that I like what Prinnctopher's Belt said about people with deformities. They can suffer with great low self-esteem and simply suggesting that they gain confidence isn't going to work. How can someone say it's up to that person to give themselves a life? Surely the issue here is the social environment? Because some people do stare, some people do laugh and make fun and judge someone because of their looks. Those people are the problem. It's their attitude that should be tackled and "made" to change. You can blame the situation and you can blame the people around you because, sometimes, it really is their fault.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2013
  8. justMe7

    justMe7 Well-Known Member

    Well... interesting. Is this like a blog of your personal opinions on the matter? No offense as I can see what you are saying, but it's really.. simple. Idk, what are you looking for when you're posting this? I'd be careful about skimming topics like this then jumping to the next. It's a depth lure, without the depth and a bit of a "snap out of it".
  9. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    There's more to be added, and it does have potential for a re-write, developing content levels and perceptive depth.

    The crux of it is more what individuals do themselves. It is merely offering a different perspective as to how things could be seen, without defining for definite that it is right or wrong.
  10. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry to say, the blog is not well thought out, i could poke holes in it with nothing but logic...there is logical reasons for both sides of the subject, however this is a pro life site and as such i wont go into it further for risk of triggering or affecting other people.

    P.s suicide is legally classed as self murder, while decriminalized in 1962 it does have an interesting legal history, first made illegal by a king (i forget his name) in the 11th century to stop people needed for war from doing away with themselves, the way they made it illegal was as follows, all the possessions and assets of the person were taken by the crown, so families would be left homeless and destitute. The body was not allowed a religious burial and until the 19th century were buried at a crossroads with a stake through them and a stone on their face. Even now, no church is obligated to bury someone who committed suicide, i was in fact surprised when two of my friends who took their own lifes were buried in the local graveyard and i personally thanked the vicar.
    Just a bit of random knowledge for you there...
  11. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    Well this is by far the worst thing written I have ever seen in my entire life. I can't believe it is so bad. But you are obviously choosing to write so badly. Any other explanation regardless of how reasonable makes no sense at all, I will just blindly dismiss it out of hand, you are just not trying hard enough. You probably just want the attention any way. Oh poor me look how badly I string sentences together to make no real point at all. Well I am not falling for your victim routine. You just need some tough love. Now you can improve your writing but its not that you need further studying of English or brushing up on how to make a coherent point. No all you need to do is smile, the more you smile the better your blog will get. It is all about a healthy positive attitude which you clearly lack or you would not have written something so dire. When you don't show me enough of that positivity I will be sure to heap on scathing criticism. Remember smile and the whole world smiles with you.
  12. WildCherry

    WildCherry Staff Member ADMIN

    There's a difference between disagreeing with someone's views, and attacking them on a personal level. Seems that line has been crossed here.

    Taken from a sticky toward the top of the forum;

    "3. Refrain from criticizing or belittling one who holds a different position. Comments to be avoided, “How moronic can you be?” or “You don’t know anything.” Attacking people instead of ideas merely indicates a weakness in your position and aggravates everybody. In a forum aimed at supporting others through difficult times, we should strive to be empathetic to others.
  13. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    I think you missed the sarcasm to make my point. In fact your response has further proven my point. This is not a personal attack and Unimportant is smart enough to realise that.
  14. justMe7

    justMe7 Well-Known Member

    ah fuck it edit
    delete delete
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  15. JohnADreams

    JohnADreams Well-Known Member

    It sounds like you have an internal locus of control and either have trouble understanding why others are controlled externally.

    In my own life I am attempting to move from an external to an internal locus (which may be also called personal empowerment?) but I am coming out of an extended period of time when I almost only ever experienced hopeless and powerless. Every day I have to battle the ideas imprinted on me by a lifetime of isolation, shame and self loathing. It's hard to come to terms with the idea that I have control over anything, that I deserve anything or even that I am capable of achieving something worthwhile but I'm still trying to get there.

    It's all about being ready to break out of the old behaviours, which is something I wish was easy to teach people but I haven't found a way to. Unfortunately, it only starts after either hitting rock bottom or when an extreme level of frustration kicks in.
  16. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Interesting perspective there JohnADreams. One that does make a lot of sense, even in the overview that you have read thus far.

    The last two lines stood out, because it is something that I could consider in trying to open up another avenue.

    And I applaud you for continuing to try to achieve something with your life.
  17. poison

    poison Well-Known Member

    For people that are looking for an alternative perspective on mental health, I highly recommend the following blog: Behaviorism and Mental Health. It's owned by a guy with a pHD who was a former psychologist. It's great stuff, and it's probably complementary to what OP is peddling.
  18. emily83

    emily83 Well-Known Member

    i'm interested in what it was you were going to say?
  19. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Regarding the former psychologist who is mentioned through this link, here is the email transcript I received from him regarding his opinion.

    All opinions are being taken into consideration regarding the content while I develop it to a much more informative depth. It will take a fair bit of time to collate, and develop, while not diversifying too much from the primary emphasis that I am going for.
  20. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    What a fascinating view point. Tasteful enough to not resort to victim blaming in getting his views across. The comments sections are more interesting than his actual articles. Got any other interesting blogs Poison?

    Gary I wish you well in your writing endeavour. Just be softer or more neutral in your approach. You should probably look up Learned Helplessness.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2013
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