Are Islam and Terrorism Compatible?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by flowergirl, Jun 4, 2010.

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  1. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    Dear Brothers and Sisters:

    May God make us all of the Guided and of those who walk the Straight Path and may He give us the Insight and Wisdom to Understand.

    I appreciate you, and I appreciate your interest in Islam.

    I emphasize and sincerely advise any of you who truly wishes to learn of Islam to consider studying on your own. But today, many people are not interested in learning of Islam but making assumptions about Islam. But even those assumptions might be excusable were they not born of gross ignorance of Islamic teachings. Today, people’s Bibles, Torah, Bhagwat Gita and Quran are not the actual books of religion but the news media and specific uninformed sites—which unfortunately for people willing to learn—do not themselves understand one word about Islam and only spread further misinformation.

    I genuinely propose to you a question: If you are getting a D+ in chemistry and wish to improve your grade in the class, would you go to the student who he himself was getting an F to learn chemistry? No. But today, that is exactly what people do. They don’t wish to learn Islam from their Islamic Center, or local Muslim professors and scholars. They want to learn Islam from news media which isn’t even proposing to teach about Islam but instead providing an exciting and sensationalistic proposition or from sites which don’t even understand Islam and its purpose is only to make assertions on Islam based on its fear of terrorists.

    Barring even this idea of learning about Islam from appropriate sources, what most people also fail to realize is that Christian, Jewish, atheists, agnostics, and other scholars and professors well-versed in the study of Quran’s Arabic and Islam do not make the criticisms that the news media and such sites do. Instead, their criticisms center on theological issues revealed in the Quran in terms of comparative religion, or certain aspects of language or grammar in the Quran. I ask you sincerely: Why are these scholars not making the same or even similar criticisms? Because Brothers and Sisters, these learned scholars know that the criticisms that the news media and such sites make are inapplicable. They too don’t believe in the Quran or Islam, but they do not occupy themselves with what untruths propagandized on news and social media. Difference in criticism born of knowledge and a criticism born of conjecture and supposition is like the sky and the earth, the gold and the pyrite, the flower and its duplicated origami.

    Furthermore, a response can be made to criticism based in knowledge, but knowledge steeped in ignorance has no cure for the ignorant believes foolishly that any rationale to counter its ignorance is provided with illicit intention and nefarious schemes. Thus, I pray to God that you are of the middle group, those who don’t understand but are sincere in willingness to understand. But if you should discover you are of the tenacious belonging the latter category, I sincerely counsel you not to waste your time reading this as in your case I will absolutely be of zero benefit to you and only incur on your part the futile exercise of your energies.

    Now, I get to the purpose of this thread: Are Islam and Terrorism compatible? The answer is an emphatic no. But if I tell you so, that doesn’t tell you anything except that so-and-so said this. So, thereby I occupy myself with wishes of the Sister who wishes to know and not fear Islam in this thread. First, I must clarify I cannot help any understand. I can only equip you with knowledge by which you may help yourself and deduce whether terrorism and Islam are compatible. If after this still you do not understand, I must conclude that I have lacked in some way and ask you to again study Islam on your own.

    Before I begin in earnest, I want to note that I do not know what specific expectations any of you might carry in having opened this thread but whatever your purpose, I hope you find that which I have said to be some worth or benefit to you in understanding the deen. Please know Islam was revealed over a period of 23 years, and I cannot tell you all that is to know and understand about Islam in whatever time it takes for you to read this thread. This is why I emphasize again: “Study Islam.” Please also realize that I’ve written nothing in here that you cannot verify by researching and studying Islam and history.

    In order for us to gauge properly whether Islam and terrorism are compatible, we have to start with the 1) Islam’s basics, 2) its underlying principles, 3) a Muslim’s defining characteristic, 4) its emphasis, and discuss 5) jihad and 6) how Islam considers non-believers and 7) out-of-context quotes and studying Islam and 8) flawed logical reasoning and then only can we proceed from all of this study to 9) analysis of terrorism and then 10) the final discourse on this topic. By the way, if you skip around in this thread anything I say, you might miss some key inferences or understanding needed for determining whether Islam and terrorism are compatible. Therefore, I strongly ask and urge and recommend that you read everything (even if you read in incremental time slots). Some of you might be at points in time find yourself somewhat familiar with a little of this, and for that I ask forgiveness, but I wish to ensure that those unfamiliar with any or all aspects of Islam have an equal chance of understanding this as well as any of you. In either case, I ask you to please read everything as even if you know a little of this, I’m almost sure much of this will be new and the little you may know can still serve as a refresher. Also, I want to thank the Sister on whose request I wrote all this for inviting me to share my knowledge and analysis. And I also want to thank all of you for being curious enough to want to learn. May God guide you to the Straight Path.

    ISLAM’S BASICS

    What does Islam teach?
    Islam teaches to believe in the Revelations of the Prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Jesus and others (peace upon them all). We believe that these prophets were sent so that humanity could receive the glad tidings of how wonderful their return to God would be if they should live as submitting slaves to God.

    Islam teaches that due to the unfortunate man-made changes institutionalized within the previously revealed religions and/or the alterations made in their respective texts or revelations lost to them by other means, little of the original message remains which hasn’t either been corrupted by human authors or misplaced. Thus, Quran, divine revelation, was sent down upon the last messenger to correct those who’d either earned the displeasure of God or went far away astray from its original message as a result of such man-made corruptions or on account of having lost pieces of original revelations.

    “…He it is Who has sent unto you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.” (Quran 6:114).

    “For We had certainly sent unto them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail – a guide and a mercy to all who believe.” (Quran 7:52).

    What does Islam mean?
    Islam means “submission” and this submission is directed towards the Almighty with the belief that this same submission was ordained upon previous nations but they became lost to its message after a time of this submission having become ordained upon them. Muslims, by virtue of submitting, are those who submit.

    “…This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” (Quran 5:3.)

    Islam also means “peace” and this is interesting because Quran notes that this submission to God produces peace within the heart.

    “… Only in the remembrance of God can the heart find peace.” (Quran 13:28.)

    What is the Quran?
    The Quran is the holy revelation of Islam.

    Quran affirms what was revealed in previous Revelations and rejects falsehood that was added and truth which was subtracted or lost by humans. Quran was sent as an easily memorized text so that even should all of humanity join together to destroy all existing Quran, the Quran preserved in the breasts of mankind would allow them to reproduce the original Quran in the exact same form again, and again, and again. This also means that this is a Protected Book because this mercy had not been granted to previous nations.

    “. . . We have sent down to you the Book explaining all things, a guide a Mercy, and glad tidings to Muslims.” (Quran 16:89.)

    Quran is also a complete Code of Religion which requires Muslims to read, recite, study, comprehend, and apply to their lives. This revelation was meant for all mankind.

    Also, Quran asks many questions of idol-worshippers and those Nations (Abrahamic faiths) who were previously given the Revelations before Prophet Muhammad (SAW) so that they may analyze, inspect, and study, reflect, and then reply to God as to why they have as yet not submitted to Him in Islam.

    Quran ordains upon its followers certain duties and directs submitters to model their lives after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who was sent as a messenger of glad tidings to those who accept the Truth and as a warner of God’s displeasure to those who turn away from the Truth.

    What and who is a Muslim?
    Muslim means “one who submits.” This submission can only be directed to One God.

    The term “Muslim” is both an easy and a complex term in that it denotes not only Muslims of all ages since Prophet Muhammad’s (SAW) time (which is easy to understand) but this term also encompasses previous earliest Nations (Abrahamic faiths) who’d submitted to God after the Truth was brought to them (meaning that the earliest Christians and Jews were and are considered Muslims by virtue of them having submitted to God at the time of their own revelations and up to that time till they changed their text or started believing that which was untrue and changed their own status to non-Muslims). That is why all other prophets and the earliest believing nations are also considered Muslim.

    What is the purpose of Islam?

    The message and purpose of Islam is to teach mankind to humble their selves before God, Disposer of All Affairs. Islam calls for submission and teaches that this submission is not possible for human beings without self-purification. (Please keep this thought in mind as you read further because this is central concept to all that Islam teaches Muslims.)

    UNDERLYING PRINCIPLES

    Maybe many of you know about the 5 pillars of Islam. Still, I only list them here and only briefly for those unfamiliar with them:

    1) Declaration of Faith
    2) Prayer (Salat)
    3) Charity (Zakat)
    4) Fasting (Sawm)
    5) Pilgrimage (Hajj)

    Now, the declaration of faith is simply a matter of belief in God and His messenger. However, the last four are duties ordained upon all able-bodied sane adult human beings. Duties, however, do not necessarily and completely define Muslims.

    For example:
    If your job at Pizza Hut is to make pizza from scratch, that job description does not define you. Why do I say this? Because if that job did indeed define you, you, Brother/Sister, you would always be making pizza 24 hours a day without rest and repeatedly for all your life. Impossible, right? So, making pizza is then something you do but it isn’t who are you. Verbs and adjectives are different in that the former is an act of doing whereas the other is a quality and state of being. In that same way, if these duties truly completely defined Muslims, they would always for every minute of 24 hours and 365 days a day have to be praying, fasting, giving charity, and doing pilgrimage. However, these are duties prescribed upon certain times or in general, not character descriptions of Muslims.

    I already said that Muslims are who submit to God. But this submission is not easy. Certain aspects of human beings inhibit them from submitting to God completely. Reduced to its basic, this is “nafs” or ego.

    Therein are only two types of people essentially in this world: one whose nafs have overcome them and led them to ruin because they took these impulses as their god and lord. Then, there are those who have overcome their nafs and made them obey their commands, and these are the people who have truly surrendered and submit to their Lord Most Great.

    The Quran speaks generally of three nafs: the nafs that “commands to evil” (12: 53), the “nafs that blames” itself which to a limited extent is our conscience and its other level of blame is recognition of human deficiency (75: 2), and the “nafs at peace with itself” (89:27).

    Fundamentally, variations within these levels or three phases means that this is what the nafs passes through in the process of its own purification.

    Self-purification is a very difficult process, especially in our contemporary world where anything and everything is competing for our attention and distracting us from paying attention to our needs for self-purification. In here, I have only told you of three nafs, but actually Islamic scholars have derived from this classification further seven nafs. For the purposes of this thread, however, the above discussion should serve.

    A MUSLIM’S DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC


    Self-purification is what defines a Muslim. Without self-purification, a Muslim’s acts and duties might be/is largely ineffective and deficient.

    “As for whoever exceeded the limits and preferred the life of this world, surely his abode will be the Fire; and as for whoever feared to stand before his Lord and restrained the desires of his self, surely his abode will be the Garden.” (Quran 79:39-40.)


    Today, you’ll see people running after their vain desires and after the world to such a large extent that when anything of good is said to them they turn away in arrogance and ask, “Where’s your proof, if you’re telling the truth? Surely, you’re a liar or misguided or a fraud.” In doing this, they raise their nafs up to the status of divinity and incur loss according to the message of Quran.

    So, without self-purification, illusion seems real and the real seems illusion.

    In the third level of nafs—“nafs at peace with itself”—this nafs is said to be the kind that has certitude in God.

    “Soon will We show them our Signs on the horizons, and within their own nafs, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth (41:53).”

    Persons who purify their nafs to the appropriate degree will witness signs within of how the outward universe is an expression of God.

    Since the purified nafs is a locus of God’s self-disclosure to man, the Prophet (SAW) said in a hadith: “He who knows his nafs, knows his Lord.”

    Moreover, if we make the similitude of a house with the declaration of the faith as the roof and the remaining 4 pillars of Islam as support, then you tell me: Would not this house be rendered useless if it is filled with garbage? In that same manner, Islam considers lack of self-purification the type of garbage or filth that afflicts the heart and nafs. Thus, self-purification is a requirement in Islam.

    “But only he (will prosper) that brings to God a sound heart—” (Quran 26:89)


    (Continued...)
     
  2. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    ITS EMPHASIS

    What does this self-purification require?

    This self-purification requires freedom from these specific vices and sins that earn the displeasure/wrath of God:

    1) Envy
    The Messenger (SAW) forbade us in the hadith that is reported by Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim, “Do not envy one another and do not hate one another, and do not turn your back on one another (in discontent) and be the servants of God like brothers.”

    2) Malice & Hatred
    “Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant (don’t punish them). If a suggestion from Satan assails your mind, seek refuge with God; surely He is Hearing, Knowing (all things).” (Quran 7:199-200.)

    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for God and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear God. Verily, God is Well¬-Acquainted with what you do. (Quran 5:8.)

    3) Anger
    The Messenger (SAW) said in a hadith reported by Abu Huraira, “The strong is not the one who over comes the people by his strength. But the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger.”

    4) Slander, Suspicion & Backbiting
    “O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, in deeds some suspicions are sins. And spy not neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting). And fear God, verily, God is the one who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.” (Quran 49:12.)

    5) Indolence
    “And those who strive in Our (Cause)―We will certainly guide them to Our Paths: for verily Allah is with those who do right. (Quran 29:69.)

    6) Pride & Arrogance
    “I shall turn away from My revelations those who show pride in the world wrongfully.” (Quran 7:146.)

    “And in this way God does put a seal on every arrogant disdainful heart.” (Quran 40:35.)


    The Messenger (SAW) warns in a hadith reported by ‘Abdullah, “He who as in his heart the weight of a mustard seed of pride shall not enter Paradise.”

    7) Mischief-Making
    “And O my people! Give full measure and weight in justice and reduce not the things that are due to the people, and do not commit mischief in the land, causing corruption.” (Quran 11:85.)

    “And incline not toward those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you, and you have no protectors other than God, nor you would then be helped.” (Quran 11:113.)


    8) Love of this World & Vanity

    "Whatever you have (of worldly possessions) will (one day) come to an end, (But) whatever is with God will remain forever." (Quran 16:96.)

    “Wealth and sons are allurements of the life of this world: but the things that endure, Good Deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best as (the foundation for) hopes.” (Quran 18:46)


    “Know (and understand well), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children, (it is) as the likeness of vegetation after rain, thereof the growth is pleasing to the tiller; afterwards it dries up and you see it turning yellow; then it becomes straw; and in the hereafter is a severe chastisement and (also) forgiveness from Allah and (His) pleasure; and this world’s life is naught but means of deception.” (Quran 57:20.)

    The Messenger (SAW) said as narrated by Ka’b Bin Malik: “Two hungry wolves let loose in a flock of sheep do not cause so much damage to the flock as does the love of wealth and vanity cause to one’s deen.”

    9) Deception & Lying
    “And do not say that of which you have no knowledge.” (Quran 17:36)

    “Say: ‘Verily, those who invent a lie against God will never be successful.’” (Quran 10:69)

    “O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds).”(Quran 9:119.)


    “So, as a result, He puts hypocrisy into their hearts, until the day they meet Him, for that they failed God in that they promised Him and they were liars.” (Quran 9:77.)

    “And take not your oaths to practice deception between yourselves, with the result that someone’s foot may slip after it was firmly planted; and you may have to taste the evil (consequences) of having hindered (men) from the path of God and a mighty Wrath descend on you.” (Quran 16: 94.)

    The Prophet (SAW) said as narrated by Abu Hurayrah: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.”

    The Messenger (SAW) said as narrated by Hakim ibn Hizaam: “The two parties involved in a transaction have the option (of canceling it) until they part. If they are honest and truthful, their transaction will be blessed for them and if they conceal something and tell lies, the blessing of their transaction will be wiped out.”

    The Prophet was asked as narrated by Hazrat Safwaan bin Sulaim, “‘Can a believer be a coward?’ He said, ‘Yes, he can be coward.’ Then it was asked whether a believer could be a miser? He replied, ‘Yes, he can be a miser.’ It was then asked whether a believer could be a liar. He replied, ‘No, a believer cannot be a liar.’”

    10) Greed
    Hakim bin Hizam narrated this hadith: “I asked the Prophet (for some money) and he gave me, and then again I asked him and he gave me, and then again I asked him and he gave me and he then said, ‘This wealth is (like) green and sweet (fruit), and whoever takes it without greed, God will bless it for him, but whoever takes it with greed, God will not bless it for him, and he will be like the one who eats but is never satisfied. And the upper (giving) hand is better than the lower (taking) hand.’”
    The Prophet (SAW) said as narrated by Sahl bin Sa’d, “I and the person who looks after an orphan and provides for him, will be in Paradise like this,” putting his index and middle fingers together.

    “Those who are tight-fisted with the bounty God has given them should not suppose that that is better for them. No indeed, it is worse for them! What they were tight-fisted with will be hung around their necks on the Day of Rising. God is the inheritor of the heavens and Earth, and God is aware of what you do.” (Quran 3:180.)

    Such is the importance placed on self-purification. Of course, working towards freedom of these vices is an exercise in patience, which incidentally is also something that believers are told in the Quran to practice because patience has many virtues.

    Thus, self-purification is incumbent upon all Muslims and is one of the keys in Islam to ensure that the five pillars of Islam are supported by a strong moral character because engenders love of striving in God’s way by working righteousness and goodness.

    Many of you have already seen that Quran requires self-purification as a defining characteristic of a Muslim. And you’ve also seen the enumerated vices that Islam asks Muslims to purify from themselves from. At this point, I ask you: Can a terrorist ever have the defining characteristic of a Muslim? The answer is no, Brothers and Sisters. Why? The terrorist preaches hate, works mischief, is envious, slanders, arrogant to the nth degree, practices deception and lying, and is engaged in vanity. But I know many of you are still not sure what this proves except that the terrorist is by definition and in its simplest form is considered a bad person under Islam. So, let’s continue examining this issue.

    But at least we now know that the terrorist is not a true Muslim because of his nature according to the standards of submission by Islam, submission to the One Creator.

    JIHAD

    Brothers and Sisters, if you’ve made this far into reading and have read all the text, I want to congratulate you. But I’m afraid I’ve some bad news: The bad news is that according to the definition of jihadi in Islam—and particularly as used in the news media of our contemporary times—every single human being—and yes that means you and me too—on this Earth from has been born, is born and will be born a terrorist. If your reaction is “what!” to what I’ve revealed, then let me tell you that was exactly my reaction too when I first started to hear in the mainstream news media equating jihad with terrorism.

    To understand jihad, you have to first know its definition. Jihad means literally to “struggle” to the utmost of one’s capacity. Any person who exerts himself mentally, physically, or spends his wealth as charity is engaged in jihad, and is by virtue of that a jihadi. I am, however, sure that you’re not interested in the jihad as it pertains to the mental struggle or the lower self struggle in terms of physical control as emphasized in Islam. However, you must realize that this type of jihad’s superiority has been underscored very much in Islam, especially by Prophet Muhammad (SAW), because Muslims believe that the man who has conquered his baser self and desires will be ennobled in this life and the Hereafter.

    Let’s now speak about the relevance of the jihad that constitutes actual fighting. Jihad also constitutes a bodily struggle in that a Muslim is required to fight in face of aggression and oppression and usurping of Muslim property and massacre of Muslims. This was ordained by God, as Muslims believe, so that the Muslims do not engage in cowardice should the time come that Muslims are unjustly attacked. By the way, several verses refer to this type of cowardice in the Quran because in essence this cowardice is an act of aggression against God and overvaluing of one’s own life at the expense of suffering fellow brethren.

    That being said, Muslims are expressly prohibited at all costs from initiating aggression.

    Thus, jihad calls only for armed self-defense when aggressors have passed all bounds and limits.

    “And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women, and children whose cry is: ‘Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!’” (Quran 4:75.)


    In the Quran, the Muslims are informed that it is not easy to believe in God and practice the religion for there are peoples which will and do oppose Islam and will not let Muslims live in peace, and then, the Muslims might be put through greater trial and hardship and suffer loss of lives and wealth in protecting their faith if they should refrain from fighting when at the time it becomes clear to them that the aggressors will not leave them alone to reside in peace. This is because Muslims believe (as Islam teaches) that if acts of aggressions of the aggressor are not contained, the aggressor becomes bolder and does not hesitate to further its aggression until the land and its people are completely destroyed.

    “O you who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful penalty? That you should believe in God and His messenger, and that you should strive (your utmost) for the cause of God, with your wealth and your lives that is the best of you, if you but knew.” (Quran 61:11.)


    However, if you will note, jihad and terrorism are not at all the same. Jihad, the fighting kind, becomes incumbent on Muslims only and only if they are under attack and/or in real and immediately known danger from oppressors and aggressors.

    In the cases whereupon jihad becomes incumbent, Muslims are still commanded by Islam to observe ethics of war and be just and give due rights and consideration to the people they are fighting, and especially so to the women, children, and the enfeebled of the enemy camps.

    Also, jihad can only be waged on combatants, not on civilian populations.

    Terrorism, however, as we all know is aggression in its worst form and is blind to the value of any and all human lives under law and in the sight of God.

    Of course, I also know of infamous verses quoted out of context from the Quran in the news and social media that “supposedly” means Quran is advocating aggression towards non-believers, leading the unknowledgeable people to falsely conclude that non-believers’ people lives are not important. How untrue! But I know none will believe this until I do discuss those verses. So, I will much further below. (Please have patience with me.)

    Before I begin with that though later in the thread, I believe it is supremely important that I first familiarize you how Islam regards non-believers within this topic, and I’ll use a little bit of formal logic so that you may grasp all of that I’ll say.

    HOW ISLAM REGARDS NON-BELIEVERS

    Is there such a thing as heat? Like a hot stove? Yes. But is there such a thing as cold? If you answered yes, the answer—believe it or not—is actually no in logic. Why? Because cold is simply the word we use for absence of heat.

    So, the logical opposite of “hot” is “not hot.” The opposite that we are/were taught in elementary schools of hot being the opposite of cold is untrue according to the rules of formal logic. That is because heat conductivity can be measured and “not heat” is measured by the standards of heat too, not by standards of “cold.”

    Is there light? Yes. Is there such a thing as darkness? No. Darkness is simply a word to denote the absence of light. The opposite of “light” in actuality is “not light.”

    In that same way, the opposite of the term “believer” is “not believer” but the English language supplies the term instead of “unbeliever.”

    Now, let’s take this discussion back to Islam. Islam is not trying to be antagonistic towards non-Muslims by using the term “unbeliever.” It is simply using this term to describe what is opposite to belief and Muslim.

    Furthermore, in the declaration of faith, one of the five pillars of Islam, the Muslim states, “I witness there is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.” In a funny way, I remember once reading a response on Yahoo! Answers by an atheist that said the sentence contained some words too many words and should have been left at “[I witness there is] no god.” That was an interesting response because the responder had accidentally stumbled upon a truth that a few Muslim scholars propose which is that therein lies a specific reason for not simply declaring in its place, “There is God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.”

    First off, to understand the context of this, you need to see how Islam perceives non-Muslims:

    The Prophet (SAW) said as narrated by Abu-Huraira: “No child is born except on al-fitra (Islam) and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?”

    These words of the Prophet (SAW) in terms of “al-fitra” means literally in Arabic disposition, nature, constitution—which in its purity is a “perfect” state in Islam—to which each human being aspires to and which is present in every human being upon birth—and that is the state of submission. Since Islam means “submission,” this means that each human being is born with this nature of submitting to God. However, as he is growing in the world, his society and his nafs start to oppose this truth.

    As a result, Muslim scholars have proposed that saying this declaration means necessarily passing this stage of “no god”—unbelief—into arriving at the truth of God. The next words regarding Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in the Islamic tradition of declaration of faith, contrary to superficial reading, is not about Prophet Muhammad’s status as a Messenger of God but about his function.

    The Islamic concept of prophet in this declaration carries an underlying notion that God has something to say to mankind, and has from time to time chosen certain persons in various communities through whom to say it; then, of course, this means the Muslim believes that declaration’s fundamental assertion is that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was one of those blessed persons.

    The reason I’ve so far been discussing the declaration of faith is so that people realize that when Prophet Muhammad said the words “unbeliever” i.e. “kafir” or when Quran utilizes the word, the word is not intended to be antagonistic or derisive towards non-Muslims but stating an act of being that is different from and opposite to belief and believing.

    Of course, this is in stark contrast to the term of “infidel”—if you look through the etymology of the word—this word was invented by the Church just a little before the time of the later Crusades to specifically describe Muslims who were apparently considered “heathens” and “faithless.” This was, as you can see, not a term that the Christians of that time used in any way other than antagonistic and with derisive connotations regarding the Muslim population. Thus, today people believe that Muslims in turn return this favor, which is not true. And unfortunately, the news media has capitalized on this ignorance of the general population and proposed that Muslims consider Christians and Jews “infidels.” No. That is the blatant untruth. If Muslims did consider followers of the Abrahamic faiths “infidels,” by Islam accepting that those Abrahamic faiths did carry originally revelations from God, the Muslim would then necessarily be also saying that all Muslims too are “infidels.” And if that were to happen, as you can see, the foundations of Islam would fail the test of both carrying any divine message and of submission to God, both aspects which are quite central to Islam.

    Furthermore, if unbelievers were truly considered unworthy under Islam, then Islam would not have given the glad tidings of having anyone who accepts Islam of having their previous sins erased and forgiven. Also, to understand this further, you need to understand that Muslims do not believe in the concept of original sin of Eve, which is why Muslims also believe that everybody who had been, is, and will be born on Earth is born sinless and on “al-fitra” but grows to commit sins on the behest of its nafs.

    (Continued...)
     
  3. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    So, now that we know how Islam considers non-believers, let’s put this into perspective by a question I’ll ask you to further derive at a further truth:

    If a man kills a person, what has he done?

    If a man kills someone, he is a criminal. And he is responsible. But I am not asking you about that. I am asking you about what he has done. Please think outside of the box for this question.

    Suppose I give you a scenario? A man breaks into the home of a home where he accidentally stumbles upon a child and shoots the child out of fear that the child will call the police, what has he done?

    Well, we can probably surmise that the kid’s parents will be aggrieved and the criminal cannot make up for the loss of this life. But that is your intuition and guess. All right, what if I make this situation more interesting?

    Suppose I further tell you that the child that the man killed was someone who in the future would have made valuable contributions to the quantum theory and made strides in the field of physics rivaling that of Einstein? Does that make you angry, maybe sad? But what if similarly the child in this scenario was meant to be the scientist who would have found for our world the cure to cancer?

    What has the man done when he has taken when he has taken this child’s life?

    Before you get ahead of yourselves, I want to make this situation now more difficult for you.

    What if I cancel the first two scenarios and present you another scenario: What if the child killed would have grown up to be another Hitler, actually worse than Hitler, and massacred more than 20 million people? Do you feel the same way about the murder of the child in the three different scenarios? No, right?

    This, Brothers and Sisters, is the knowledge of the Unseen that all Muslims believe rests only with God. In fact, this is knowledge that neither you nor I possess and nor can anyone ever claim to possess such a knowledge. So, the fact is that you don’t know what a man actually does when a person takes another life. The Seen realm, the one in which you and I live, allows us to determine that a life was robbed—an injustice was done. But what the actual repercussions of taking that life is something we are incapable of determining because that particular knowledge is only part of the Unseen World. That is why Islam places such a premium on all life.

    Islam does not care whose life—believer or nonbeliever—has been taken because nobody knows what the man has actually done by taking that life. To put this matter into further perspective, I ask you this question: Do you think the child in the scenario, whether a Muslim or non-Muslim, would not have benefited all humanity by mastering a specialized field of physics or even helped millions with a cure of cancer (if the child was so capable in the initial two similar scenarios)?

    “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel if any one slew a person — unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land — it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” (Quran 5:32).

    Such is the sanctity of life explained in the Quran that killing a person is equated with killing all of humanity. Now, the context for this verse we know refers to Children of Israel but Muslims all over the world understand this verse to also apply equally to them. Can you think of why? Simple. Because Muslims believe that God’s ultimate divine laws such as this are the same for all mankind. To further understand this, you must remember that Muslims believe in the Original Revelations sent upon previous Nations except that Muslims consider them unreliable sources due to the alterations in the text made by human authors or other problematic aspects. However, any laws of the Torah or Bible or other such revelations that survive in the Quran are considered ultimate divine laws, unassailable and unchangeable and thus for all Muslims.

    Hopefully, the blinders are coming off at this point and you’re able to see that Islam doesn’t teach, advocate, or propagate terrorism. Moreover, this is further what the Quran says:

    “Say (O Muhammad SAW): Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: ‘Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty - We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to shameful deeds whether committed openly or secretly, and kill not anyone whom God has forbidden, except by way of justice and law.’ This He has commanded you that you may understand.” (Quran 6: 151.)

    Now, to even think that Islam allows for indiscriminate killing by way of terrorism is to equate such heinous acts with justice and law (according to the above verse), which we all know cannot be true because terrorism by its very nature is insidious and hideous and supreme injustice. And as such, terrorism in Islam is seen as a violation of God’s ordainment of sanctity of life. Thus, Islam and terrorism are incompatible.

    But wait, I’m not done yet. Remember the verses that I said from the Quran that people mistakenly believe promotes aggression against unbelievers? Well, let’s examine some of them so that you can understand them and why Muslims feel that their religion is being hijacked by anti-Islam propaganda.

    OUT-OF-CONTEXT QUOTES & STUDYING ISLAM


    If a person says, “ahhhh,” what is the person saying?

    Can you guess what any person is saying when they say “ahhhh”? Take some guesses.

    This is an evocative sound—that is to say—it evokes emotions.

    However, I want to you to examine three scenarios and see what it actually means within their proper and respective contexts.
    Scenario #1: “Ahhhh! I’ll kill you! Susie screamed, “You dweeb! Give me back my note! Give it back or I’ll tell Mom.” Eric knew Susie meant business.
    Scenario #2: “Ahhhh,” Susie was heard moaning.
    “Hey, didn’t I tell you to stop yesterday. Binge drinking ain’t for you—you get me?”
    “Shut up, Jamal! My head is pounding.”
    Scenario #3: “Ahhhh. Oooh. Oh. Oooh. Ahhhh. Oh God. Now. Now,” panted Susie.
    35 minutes later—“Look at this Jason. Five toes. Five fingers. Isn’t that the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen?”

    This is what I mean by “context.” Without the context of the sound placement, you can’t even figure out what a simple sound is signaling: a scream, a moan, a pant, or even something else. If this is true of such a small utterance such as “ahhhh”—imagine how greater the need for such context is when you quote from any text.

    However, in the media today, gross negligence of this very context is practiced and so much so that I once felt (and still do) that the news and social media of our time feels no social responsibility to examine context at all, especially if the matter concerns Quran or hadiths so that further fuel can be thrown on the fire of hatred being engendered of Islam and Muslims in reporting today as a result of politicization of the “Islam” issue.

    Anyway, I quote below to you verses made infamous by news media and sites.

    But before I do this, I ask you to remember some of the prophets that you’ve read about whose nations suffered divine punishment for being the rejecters of faith? Remember any?

    Okay, let’s go back in time: Some prophets that I can think of at the top of my head right in this moment are Noah, Lot, and Moses (peace upon them all) which fit the criteria of having people to whom they were preaching reject faith.

    Now, the prophets above preached the message of monotheism on ordainment of God. However, do you recall what the people did to whom they were preaching their message to? If we note from above, we know they rejected the message. But can you guess what types of things specifically the rejecters might have said?

    The rejecters always said something to the effect of, “Bring the divine punishment if you are not a liar.” The respective prophets kept warning them and warning them and warning them that this is not a joke and that they should not be of the arrogant or proud for God is most swift in punishing and humiliating the proud. But what was the people’s response? The people laughed. They arrogantly proclaimed that if the prophet was really truthful and a messenger of God, the prophet would already show the punishment instead of just talking about it like a parrot or like a simpleton.

    The people would even do things like look up in the sky and say, “Bring the punishment, oh God of Noah!” Then the people would laugh further and say, “See, I did this and nothing happened. You are a liar.” And others of the people would join in doing the same so much so that they would abuse the prophet and the prophet would at last realize that all of the warning being given was of no effect.

    Each time, the same occurred:
    Noah’s nation: rejection and asking of divine punishment.
    Lot’s nation: rejection and asking of divine punishment.
    Moses’ nation: rejection and asking of divine punishment.

    When the disease of pride infects a people, they call their own doom without realizing how near that doom is to them (in truth). Since these people refused to believe and instead asked for divine punishment, each of the prophets of their time realized that the appointed time of justice that they were asking from God would come to them.

    After all, these people themselves wanted proof of divine punishment and so kept stubbornly asking for the divine punishment. So, God threw their mockery back at them:
    Noah’s people were destroyed in flood.
    Catastrophe rained upon the people of Lot.
    The Pharaoh and his people who were after destruction of Moses and the Israelites were instead themselves destroyed in the tsunami of the Red Sea.

    The same also happened with Prophet Muhammad (SAW), only in a different way. Anyway, to understand what happened, you need to realize the Prophet (SAW) had made a treaty of peace with the neighboring tribes to consolidate the position of Muslims. The treaty’s objectives were threefold:
    1) As a charter of liberty for all faiths, the treaty guaranteed people irrespective of color and creed the freedom to practice their religion and declared all forms of crime illegal.
    2) The treaty was a friendly attempt to establish friendly and cordial relations between the Muslim and the Jews of Medina to live together as peaceful citizens and defend the town from all invaders.
    3) This treaty also established the Prophet (SAW) as the leader and for all purposes, the facto head of the state of Al Medinah. He was recognized as the controller of affairs; all disputes and other matters were referred to the God and His Messenger (SAW). He acted as arbitrator between rival groups in cases of people’s quarrels and fights in order to establish and maintain peace and order in the state of Al Medinah.

    By the way, I’m speaking of the time period following the Prophet’s (SAW) immigration to Medinah, emigration which was motivated by Angel Gabriel informing of the assassination plan of the Prophet to him, an incident that the Quran notes:

    “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you, to keep you in bonds, or slay you, or get you out of your home. They plot and plan, and God, too, plans; but the best of planners is God.” (Quran 8:30.)

    Anyway, even after this immigration of the Prophet (SAW), the Makkan tribes were still not satisfied. Over time, their discomfort increased. They felt truly threatened by the growing numbers of Prophet Muhammad’s (SAW) followers. So, finally when the Makkan tribes could tolerate no more (encouraged by the hypocritical Medinah tribes) this new and strange religion “Islam,” they went with an army of 1,000 to attack Medinah.

    In this situation, the Makkan army was well-armed and well-equipped, numbering over 1,000 and had among its leaders some of the most experienced warriors of Arabia, including Abu Jahl, the inveterate foe and persecutor of Islam. At least 600 of them had armor and 100 were on horses. The Makkan tribes left fully prepared and with great pomp and show.

    Their arrogance was evinced from the amount of wealth they spent to prepare the army for the attack on a virtually unarmed and small group of people because Islam at that time was still a new religion and didn’t have the necessary numbers of men to engage in this “jihad” that could compete with this great number of enemy armed forces.

    Muslims of this time and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) were greatly distressed and even afeared by this turn of events because they knew that defeat would mean massacre and the permanent effacement of Islam on this earth, which is why the Prophet (SAW) supplicated to God for assistance in this battle that he knew Muslims could not avoid fighting. This battle became known as Badr.

    “Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from himself, and He caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith. (Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, ‘Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.’” (Quran 8:11-12.)

    This is exactly what happened. Despite the Makkan army being in higher number and better equipped, they were defeated. They were defeated because their attitude was like this, “O Muhammad! If your God be real, beseech him to help you against us but never will you be able to defeat us. We will kill you and your people this day and show you who we are and who you are!” God threw back their arrogance and mockery back at them.

    Contrary to what the news media and sites tell you, the above verse was not meant to approve fighting in the name of God against rejecters of faith but was meant to remind Muslims of God’s favor in which God brought his divine punishment against the arrogant and proud Makkan army at Badr, which is why we have the following verse:

    “And God did certainly assist you at Badr when you were weak; be careful of (your duty to) Allah then, that you may give thanks.” (Quran 3:123.)

    The Makkah tribes of course felt humiliated and angry with their defeat at the hands of Muslims whom they considered contemptible. Therefore, they made an attempt the following year with 3,000 armed men this time to avenge their previous year’s defeat.

    Thus again did jihad became incumbent upon Muslims. So, as you can see, jihad is not something that Muslims are supposed to undertake to persecute and forcefully and unfairly propagate Islam. But should Muslims be attacked, all able-bodied Muslims are commanded to not submit to cowardice when his fellow brethren’s lives are at stake. This is the type of jihad that earns a martyr’s status in Islam because this type of jihad is a defeat of the nafs and exertion on behalf of the Muslim lives with faith in God. Lest you think how strange this God in Islam is that it only chastises unbelievers, then you are wrong because God does not like transgressors whether they are unbelievers or of the believers.

    Anyway, let’s focus on the Battle of Uhud: The Prophet (SAW) had warned the believers in the Battle of Uhud to not leave their posts under circumstances in a planned offensive strategy of battle designed to ensure that they were protected from all sides. However, when the enemy started retreating, many of the archers left their posts to collect booty from the retreating armies. Thus, the enemy then attacked from behind. Thus, presumed victory was turned into defeat and left the Muslims in the battle demoralized:

    “God verily made good His promise unto you when you routed the enemy by His leave, until (the moment) you flinched, and you disagreed about the order and you disobeyed, after He had shown you that for which you long (booty). Among you are these that hanker—after this world some that desire the Hereafter.” (Quran 3:152.)


    The above verse was a chastisement and a reminder for the Muslims of the time and remains so for all Muslims even today that the world is a temporary illusion and coveting it is cause for misery and therefore Muslims should work towards instead the goal of attaining the Hereafter instead.

    A historical fact: It was only on 10th of Ramadan in the 8th year of Hijrah that Muslims were able to go back to Mecca as then Makkans did not offer resistance and thus the conquest of Mecca which followed was without any bloodshed.

    Now, remember the treaty I talked about earlier? The Treaty of Huadaibiya which gave Muslims peace and security was broken by the tribe of Bannu Quraish when Muslims were beset with enemies during the battle of Al Ahzab whence the Muslims were besieged in Medinah from all directions by the unbelievers. Islam, so it seemed to the Muslims, was to have no peace.

    However, after winning that battle, the Prophet (SAW) turned to deal with the tribe that betrayed the contract. The Quraish were unwilling to enter into any kind of peace agreement with the Muslims and were prepared to fight to the last. After a siege of one month though, they surrendered. Under surrender, they requested that their fate should be decided by their own book’s commandment which is that all their men were to be sentenced to death and the women and children to be made captives of war.

    Now, with regards to this treaty, I have seen on certain sites the attempt of rewriting and challenging history. All I have to say is that no amount of historical revisionism will change the truth. In regards specifically to this, I have only this response: “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” This is why I ask many of you study Islam on your own because many sites today are distorting known facts of history to paint a dark image of Islam.

    And yes, Brothers and Sister, this also means that I wish for you to verify all of what I’ve written here. Why? What I believe is that you or I as human beings with our prejudices and biases cannot ever be taught. Instead, human beings require learning on our own, which is why the truths we learn we perceive as truth must come only from our own consciousness and realization, not someone else’s say-so. Otherwise, we have the maiden situation of Allegory of Cave authored by Plato in which we start to believe falsehood is truth and truth is falsehood. And that is a miserable situation indeed.

    (Continued...)
     
  4. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    Also, I should warn you that you when studying Islam on your own, you should realize that therein are many inauthentic hadiths that Muslim scholars from the time of its first emergence and sometimes even later from further study have declared to be fabricated. Verifying the authenticity of the hadith is a science practiced by Muslim scholars in which they verify whether the chain of transmission is indeed strong enough to warrant that the reader necessarily conclude that what he has in his hands is indeed a saying that can be attributed to the Prophet (SAW). In this science, the opposite of “innocent until proven guilty” is considered—which is to say that all hadiths are considered suspect until and unless they can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they are indeed sayings attributable to the Prophet (SAW). Lack of this knowledge has led many non-Muslims to see and wrongly conclude that the inauthentic hadiths can safely be attributed as sayings of Prophet (SAW). Also, you have to realize that the Quran in its translated version can never compare with the original Arabic revelation, which is why I also believe that non-Muslims sometimes read into the Quran more and sometimes less than what should be read into the words. Why do I say this? Let me give you a small example of analysis of only one line in (Quran 1:2) Surah Fatiha:

    The bolded part is translation of the first line (Quran 1:2) and below I will give my commentary:

    Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds (Quran 1:2.)
    Now, a normal person reading this might think this means that the person reading this is praising God, but that is simply not true. If you read “ praise…,” you’re making an assumption that such praise is conditional upon your existence. So, then does this praise, that which belongs to God, in light of your death becomes invalidated? No, because praise that belongs to God is not conditional upon your existence. God is Creator and He does not need His creation. Moreover, the Arabic term of praise actually does not sufficiently cover what this term means. The Arabic term denotes “praise, thanks, and credit” belongs to God and God alone.

    “Allah” actually is a supreme name of the One God that Quran uses and cannot be made plural, nor given gender like masculine or female. Also, because therein exists in the English language no equivalent of the word “Allah” that we can use and “it” as a neutral gender doesn’t encompass the force and power of the word Allah, we can see the translator already running into problems translating certain understood and implicit inferences into English. This is primarily also why Arabic translations of the Quran into English run into linguistic difficulties because context-rich clues in Arabic are missing in its English translations.

    Furthermore, non-Muslims erroneously assume that Allah is some exotic type of God that the Muslims worship. No, Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus. (Please note that it is this God that we accept is Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful as the Quran says so in many places, which is why we believe He treats everyone very mercifully even when we wrong ourselves by committing sins.)

    Further, the “Lord of the Worlds” is referring to the world of the Unseen and the world of the Seen. So, for example, even if we don’t understand something that God does like war or famine, we praise, give thanks, and give credit to God—because we as human beings after becoming aware that “praise, thanks, and credit” belong to God—we then accept that God with his Unseen Knowledge knows that which we do not and our limited faculties do not comprehend His wisdom (but this wisdom does exist).

    “Lord” also means that The One God is in complete charge and responsible for the complete taking care of His Universe and everything and everybody in the Universe.

    Moreover, the phrase “Lord of the Worlds” in encompassing us is denoting a secret to mankind—that God is our Master and we are His slaves: God is not our employer. God is our Owner. The difference between an employer and owner is simple: When you have the relationship of employee to employer, the employee is an employee 9-5 typically, right? And the employee gets wages from the employer for providing certain services. But when the employee goes home, he becomes his own person. But the relationship of owner to slave is different. It is a relationship that denotes permanence. For example, you are the owner of your laptop. Could you smash your laptop? Yes. It’s your laptop. You could do anything to it that you want and no one can say anything because it is yours. In that same manner, God is telling His creation that he is their Lord, Master, and Owner. When a believer reads the phrase, the believer’s breast should start thumping from fear because this is such an awesome verse for the Muslim to internalize.

    Thus, since we are God’s slaves, we are obliged to fulfill our duties to Him. But supposing the slave fails to fulfill his duties to God and lives his life thinking that God does not exist or he doesn’t have to obey God, does God have a right to do away with him? To punish the disobedient slave? Yes. Because He is our Owner, Lord, and Master. But you cannot get all of this without having a basic understanding of the Arabic or reading the tafsir which are “explanations” of the Quran. Therefore, I recommend that anyone who wants to understand Islam study Islam on the person’s own strength and not simply accept Quran’s verses as presented in the media.

    That’s why it is very important that non-Muslims learn about the Quran from appropriate sources. This is especially important in the light of the fact that scholars of Quran spend their whole life studying and analyzing Quran and what does the news and social media do? They take one verse out of context and simply quote it as if therein lays no problem in doing so. By the way, this also means that all the verses I quoted above in this thread that I did not provide immediate context for or only gave historical context is something that a person wishing to further their understanding of Islam should look up on their own.

    FLAWED LOGICAL REASONING

    MAN: Unlike in the good old days, I only read today in newspapers and hear about purple people on television killing green people. Thus, all purple people are out of control terrorists, and to be safe from their attack, we must stop the purple people from trying to take over the world.

    What specific examples can you point to that shows flawed logical reasoning in this scenario?

    If you have any background in formal logic, you can immediately spot the flaws. But for those of you that can’t, that’s all right. I’ll list them.

    So, here is why serious doubts can/should be cast on the argument the man makes:
    1) It fails to realize that the newspapers and television news programs have more comprehensive coverage today of violent crimes, including terrorist activities. (This means that news by the nature of their services and functions present a distorted image of the world because they only cover activities which are newsworthy—in this case violent crimes. So, a person can only safely conclude from what the man said that at least some purple persons (i.e. “some” meaning here at least “1”) are violent persons.)
    2) The man cannot extrapolate from the cases of “some” purple (even “many”) people anything about “all” purple people.
    3) The man uses overgeneralization to make his point on the basis of coverage in the news.
    4) The man makes an assumption that the purple people are trying to take over the world which he cannot do on the basis of such a small sample from the news. And furthermore, he has failed to prove they are trying to take over the world. (For example, the purple people could be trying to kill for any number of reasons such as maybe not getting ice-cream from green people, not getting enough sleep, or having too many babies. Some of the reasons I know I’m providing are silly but I thought I should make clear that any number of reasons could be the reason, and the “take-over-the-world” scenario does not follow from the man’s television watching and newspaper reading about the purple people’s crimes.
    5) The man treats his conclusion as a fact when he hasn’t proved his conclusion at all.

    As you might have realized, I used the example of “purple people” instead of Muslim extremists because I thought that would perhaps provide a stronger foundation for understanding why such an argument is flawed and so on many levels, especially because sometimes we need to get past evocative identities and to the core of the matter. Hopefully, this shows you that people who equate Muslim extremists with Islam and Muslims in general are at best misinformed and at worse completely mistaken and misguided.

    TERRORISM

    Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said in a hadith as narrated by Muslim: “You will not enter Paradise until you have faith, and you will not have faith until you love each other. Shall I direct you to something which if you fulfill you will love one another? Spread peace among yourselves.”

    “Whoever works righteousness, man or woman and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.” (Quran 16:97.)

    So, the question is why are there some so-called “Muslim” terrorists? Well, let me ask you this question: Is terrorism exclusive to Muslims? No. Then, you aren’t really asking me why there are terrorists; you’re asking me why is there terrorism at all. But anyway, for the purposes of this discussion, I’ll discuss the question of “Muslim” terrorists.

    I use the word “Muslim” loosely here only to denote the religion but not the actual term meant within Islam because obviously the terrorist has not and does not submit to God. To submit to God under Islamic teachings, you have to obey God’s commands. And if you refuse to obey God’s commands out of whatever agenda, you are perhaps “Muslim” only in as much a vegetarian is a “vegetarian” if he eats meats, chicken and refrains from eggs and milk sometimes but calls himself vegetarian. Illogical, right? So is the case of terrorists and whatever religion they purport to follow. Such terrorism’s goal is to use whatever available means that they have in their hands to fit their specific agenda by perverting its message, especially if the message doesn’t prescribe the destruction they wish to wreck upon human lives. Thus, neither I nor you can answer the question of what drives a terrorist, Muslim or otherwise, because its fanaticism has “imagined” roots rather than real roots.

    Of course, the terminology “terrorism” as understood and used by the news media and sites in the West has in recent times been restricted to that only as it pertains to its perpetration by small groups or individuals. And unfortunately, I see this term now mostly used in conjunction with Muslims as if Islam is synonymous with terrorism. What a great unfortunate circumstance this is for Muslims, especially those living in the West. I ask you: Is this not an injustice in the light of the fact that the Western justice system promotes the ideal of “innocent until proven guilty” but takes Muslims and Islam to be tainted by the existence of a handful of extremists acting on their own agenda? People forget or perhaps would rather not see that men commit crimes, not religion.

    Moreover, the term terrorism as it is used in the media fails to consider this a global phenomena which it is, and manifests itself in various forms through all society and is not restricted to certain times or places. Its perpetrators do not fit any stereotype: Individuals who hold humanity cheap and have in them the thirst to destroy human lives reside at all levels in our global society. Whether it is the Osaka School Massacre, the Unabomber, or the Omaha Mall bombing, as you can understand for yourself, the terrorist does not belong to any singular category or is easily categorized.

    Further, while the term terrorism emerged and was coined from the word “terror” during the French Revolution, I would argue that terrorism has always been around, only history testifies that terrorism was then justified under supremacist philosophy, examples of which are the Spanish Inquisition, the Yahi Massacres, and Nazism. Also, I see different examples of terrorism practiced in our world today, which isn’t actually perpetrated by individuals or groups but political leaders in different countries which is of course not covered under the term “terrorism” as it is used today.

    “O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you.” (Quran 49:13).

    Humanity is indeed a brotherhood, only humanity has forgotten that.

    (Continued...)
     
  5. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    Long but informative. Thanks.
     
  6. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    FINAL DISCOURSE

    “And that man can have nothing but what he strives for” (53:39).


    The Prophet (SAW) said as narrated in a hadith by Abu Huraira: “Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights.”

    What you see is not what is. Shakespeare said, “All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players.” However, politics is a different “kettle of fish” altogether in that the world is deliberately made for key players’ convenience into a stage in which superb showmanship is enacted so that the audience only perceives and sees only that which the players want them to see and perceive. The audience does not perceive because its ears and eyes become the instruments of its own deception as they are held hostage to a particular show at the building. When one particular show comes to an end, the audience having lapped up like eager puppies the show, believe one thing of the show when altogether another thing has/had happened.

    However, even showmanship of nation-states contains a common thread and denominator. Should you discover the denominator and thread, you’ll find that most of the time you’ll unravel true political agendas and not simply rhetoric.

    Anyway, that aside, one of the most troubling aspects that I see for the global audience is that it sees no problems with terms like “war on terror” or “islamofascism.” For example, the phrase “war on terror” expresses an underlying state of constant emergency, which means really bad news for any nation-states’ citizens because their political leaders can and do use this ideological standpoint to rationalize wars for which the citizens pay with their lives and also decorates actions imperialistic in nature as justifiable and defensible due to want of “freedom” from “terror.” Also, the term “Islamofascism” is very misleading: Muslims are a dynamic, individualistic, unstructured, factional, diverse group, not any cohesive, monolithic homogenous body. The followers of Islam are not exclusive to any race, ethnicity, country, or creed and do not lend themselves as a population to making a case for consolidation of power and hegemony over the West.

    Moreover, exponents warning as pundits against “Islamofascism” draw a false parallel between 20th century fascist Germany and communism; and many people reading such people’s material are forced to conclude that the false parallel is true. But let’s see what makes this a false parallel: For one, Islamic leadership is disorganized and different sects and methodical disciplines do not even recognize religious imamate of one person over another sect or methodological discipline, forget any political imamate. Moreover, many Muslim leaders of nations in this day and age are unfortunately so corrupt and such lovers of the world that their one and only concern is for maintaining their office, not their nations’ welfare or even the contiguous security of Muslims in a world moving rapidly towards presuming and acting on the theory of clash of civilizations.

    Unlike Germany wherein Hitler played upon the sympathies of the German people as a result of the exorbitant and harsh terms of Treaty of Versailles, the few Muslim extremists in the globalized world are devoid of sympathy in Muslim countries and from Muslims in the West. Moreover, any Muslim extremists like Al-Qaeda are hated for their hypocritical and unjust policies under which some Muslims having lived felt oppressed and want in general to gain freedom from any such Muslim extremism. Further, communism arose in Russia due to former excesses of the Russian Czarist rule and undermining of Alexander Kerensky’s administration and was based on the extremists already carrying the idealisms of the Karl Marx’s and Friedrich Engels’ Communist Manifesto. However, any treatise discoursing on the egomaniacal aims of Muslims extremists of wanting hegemony over the West was articulated not even by Muslim extremists themselves but by Western hands presupposing such and such as objectives of Islam. This type of negative Orientalism, depicting of other cultures and religions calumniously by Western authors, is by far a grievous misrepresentation of Muslims and Islam and unfortunately successful disinformation endeavors.

    With regards to the few Muslim extremists, the West often presumes on the part of other Muslims a tacit approval by silence. However, that is also a false assumption. The problem is not that Muslims are retreating to silence when they are confronted with perpetration of violence by the few Muslim extremists in the world but that they too are confounded by the situation. Muslims are in fact told by Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in a hadith that the Muslims should “enjoin good and forbid evil.” And of a certainty, Muslims do want to “forbid evil” on part of extremist Muslims but the problem lies in identifying who the extremists are. How do Muslims identify the few extremists and their mindset when their malady is successfully disguised under the cloak of a normally functioning human being that none could ever guess their destructive tendencies?

    So, what are the solutions? Many times, I see Western countries adopting a confrontational and “my-way-or-the-highway” attitude that they actually end up themselves providing fuel to the fire of the (illogical) terrorist mindset and further drive a wedge between good, peaceful Muslims trying to open doors of communication so that the terrorists then use this Western policy as a tactic to their advantage in brainwashing weak minds (perhaps even insane minds) into accepting assumptions about the West as factual. While communication is not a panacea for every problem, this is a fair start. Also, Muslims in the West are constantly being made to feel like the “outsiders” when they are participating citizens; this has to stop. This is placing undue stress on Muslims in the West and preventing them from accomplishing any positive change that can help Western countries express a middle-of-the-road foreign policy and relations for everybody’s securer future.

    Also, the news media and sites constantly vocalizing against Islam and demonizing Muslims are not accomplishing anything but fracturing processes of communication. Further, they are also increasing future chances of sociopolitical marginalization of Muslims and inviting hate-crimes against Muslims (many of whom are at least trying to engender a positive outlook on many issues plaguing our world). Also, I’ve seen an explosion of sites providing only information distortion without any de facto basis. This is sheer propaganda and lending to a viral “us versus them” mentality wherein I see many subconsciously echoing and regurgitating the same disinformation as facts.

    Additionally, relieving of strains between Muslim countries and West of necessity involving cooperation, not tension-creating mechanisms; and this I believe will in turn undercut any ground from any extremists. Also, I’ve seen Western conservative political leaders demanding conformity from Muslims at the expense of their religious identity; this type of religious intolerance is a disease that has already infected political life and is now made fair-seeming to the populace. Islam is not the problem, I repeat. If Islam was the problem, the Muslim population as a whole of more than one and a three-fourth billion would have been engaged even right now in the same violence today we associate with the few extremists of our time. However, we all know that is not the case. Then why, I ask you, this intolerance? I can only credit this as a counterproductive measure and debilitating to everybody.

    Furthermore, shunning absolutes and encouraging openness to new possibilities will also help. We often tend to see the world in black and white but we somehow in doing so always miss the grays despite realizing that the grays are there—well, now’s the chance. A climate of inflexibility will always produce distrust and hatred, and hatred is like a tsunami that drowns indiscriminately anyone in its vicinity. The information distortion sites are doing the same—drowning the people reading such material in hatred and also besieging Muslims with problems as the hatred directed towards them is already showing signs, especially in U.K. where we can read in a relatively recent Guardian article that Muslims are being driven out of participating in political life. Thus, I believe people would be better served extracting poison from people’s hearts by educating that extremists are responsible for distortion of the religion, not that the that the religion is breeding terrorism (which is dogmatism of our time at its worst).

    Moreover, I was so struck by Brother Zurkhardo’s words that I use them here for all to see: “There will always be people willing to kill for a number of reasons and beliefs, be they religious or secular in nature. No high-minded belief system can make up for those among our race who are corrupt, amoral, or misguided, and who will abuse and degenerate human ideas.”

    And yet…

    I am not idealistic to believe that any of you will see immediately the truth.

    Many of you still may carry a strong hatred of or at the least a bias against Islam and Muslims or both—and you don’t have to say whether you do—this is private and a matter between you and your conscience. So, especially for you who feel this way, I ask you to please go to an Islamic Center. The moment we begin to interact with one another, we establish a communication climate. And yes, you and I are different and have different lives. But we have commonalities too.

    Also, imagine that you were the Muslim and I was the non-Muslim, would you not want me to give you this consideration and benefit of the doubt?

    And He is God in the heavens and in the earth; He knows your secret (thoughts) and your open (words), and He knows what you earn.” (Quran 6:3.)

    I thank you for putting your time and energy into reading the long thread; and also for your patience. But most of all, I want to thank you for your consideration of an issue dear to my heart.
     
  7. wastedmylife

    wastedmylife Well-Known Member

    Islam is the last great threat to peace in the world

    I have a bad feeling there will be some major uprising with alot of bloodshed before Islam is defeated or perhaps they gain ground
     
  8. pit

    pit Well-Known Member

    And the men who hold high places / Must be the ones who start / To mold a new reality / Closer to the Heart - RUSH

    :cool:
     
  9. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    Very interesting. I'll be sure to spread the word.
     
  10. Adam_D

    Adam_D Well-Known Member

    *Suspects plagiarism*
     
  11. Kaos General

    Kaos General Well-Known Member

    Sorry did anyone actually read all of that?

    Just seems to me that someone is trying too hard to justify a minority of people who believe in islam.
     
  12. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    Brother:

    May God guide you to the Straight Path.

    You made me laugh, and I needed to laugh. Thank you for that, Brother.

    You are very right, indeed. Were I in your place, I too would have thought twice about such a long, no, looong piece. You made me remember a time when one of my Professors for one of the classes had us read 200-400 pages each day everyday for the rest of the semester--and everybody in the class thought the Professor was insane!

    Apparently, this insanity is contagious! Ha. See, I understand. Now, Brother, the thing is that I did not want to write such a piece or work on this for 3-4 days, and were it not for one of the Sisters on this Forum, I don't believe I ever would have. Oh, Brother! I wish it were that simple that Islam is a minority religion, but you see, it is the second largest religion instead.

    So, for you, Brother, I provide this approximately 16-18 minute video divided into Part 1 and Part 2. This has a similar message as above above except that it is based on an individual's anecdotal experience. Perhaps you may find that of more convenience, and relevance, and enjoy that better.

    Though I realize this was not your intent, I do appreciate you making me smile.
     
  13. Adam_D

    Adam_D Well-Known Member

    Who are you refering to by 'Brother'?
     
  14. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member

    Dear Brother:

    May God guide you to the Straight Path.

    I was referring to Brother Pineappletree in my post; I apologize for confusing you. Thank you for the question.
     
  15. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    They don’t wish to learn Islam from their Islamic Center,

    I think the point is, we don't wish to learn about Islam at all, any more than any other religion but we are being forced to by violence from Islamists - in order to try to understand WHY they are killing non-Muslims at will. Having just returned from Bangkok yesterday where southern Thai individuals are having to leave the South of Thailand because they are being murdered ... for the crime of not being Muslim SOLELY .... you can understand why we are being forced to look into the motivations for this indiscriminate violence.

    I ask you sincerely: Why are these scholars not making the same or even similar criticisms?
    As far as I know, they are. I will try to find the link but I came across a you tube video with someone who had been studying Islam for decades and even as an apologist for Islam, he absolutely did NOT deny the violence inherent in the teachings of Islam. Add to the fact that those who are espousing and promoting the violence are more often than not mullahs or imams themselves, who presumably have spent a LIFETIME studying Islam.

    I want to thank the Sister on whose request I wrote all this for inviting me to share my knowledge and analysis.


    If that refers to me, you are very welcome and thank you for responding too. I am always open to hearing anything and everything!!!

    This revelation was meant for all mankind.

    Does it say that? What exactly does that mean as well. Is that a carte blanche to enforce it on ALL mankind? By any means, as a duty?

    The terrorist preaches hate, works mischief, is envious, slanders, arrogant to the nth degree, practices deception and lying, and is engaged in vanity.

    And did not Mohammed also preach hate, work mischief etc. etc.? Will you say that the genocide of the Banu Qurayzah was not hateful, the murder of the young female poet who made verses that teased Mohammed, whom Mohammed then commanded to be killed not evil, I don't have the knowledge of all the verses of the Quran that you do but I can source some off the internet viz:

    "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (5:51)"

    About 19% of the Qur'an is devoted to the violent conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims:

    "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)"

    That is fairly clear, I would have thought. And as they say, actions speak louder than words. The actions of Mohammed were clear to say the least: Enslavement, the rape of the females from conquered races, pillage, concubinage, paedophilia as with this excerpt about Safiyah http://faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm:

    Safiyah was a beautiful 17 years old Jewish woman who was captured when Muhammad’s troops raided Kheibar. She was the daughter or Huyeiy Ibn Akhtab, the chief of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe of Medina , whom Muhammad had beheaded two years earlier along with the men of Banu Quriaza. The tribe of Banu Nadir had been already banished from Medina and their properties were confiscated.

    Safiyah had married to her cousin Kinana, who was a young Jewish leader of Kheibar. When Muhammad raided that fortress, he killed its unarmed men and captured the rest. A Jewish traitor, (reminds me of Noam Chomsky) to gain Muhammad’s favor and be spared from death, told him that Kinana was the treasurer of the town and that he used to hide the money in some ruins. Muhammad ordered Kinana to be tortured to reveal the whereabouts of the treasures and killed him.

    Then he asked the prettiest woman from amongst that captives to be brought to him. Ibn Ishaq writes: "The apostle occupied the Jewish forts one after the other, taking prisoners as he went. Among these were Safiya, the wife of Kinana, the Khaibar chief, and two female cousins: [sisters of Kinana] the apostle chose Safiya for himself. The other prisoners were distributed among the Muslims. Bilal brought Safiya to the apostle, and they passed the bodies of several Jews on the way. Safiya's female companions lamented and strewed dust on their heads. When the apostle of Allâh observed this scene, he said, 'Remove these she devils from me.' But he ordered Safiya to remain, and threw his reda [cloak] over her. So the Muslims knew he had reserved her for his own. The apostle reprimanded Bilal, saying, 'Hast thou lost all feelings of mercy, to make women pass by the corpses of their husbands?'”

    Safiyah was taken to Muhammad’s tent. Muhammad wanted to have sex with her on that very night, only hours after torturing to death her husband. She resisted his advances. That night Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of Muhammad. When, in the early dawn, Muhammad saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, I was really afraid for you on her account". (Ibn Ishaq, p. 766)

    The next day Muhammad covered Safiyah with his mantle, an act signifying that she is now his. Safiyah was groomed and made-up for Muhammad by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik and was taken to Muhammad who married her in a mock marriage ceremony and raped her that night. Muslims call this marriage. I call that rape. I am certain not many young women would like to jump into bed with an old man who happens to be the murderer of their father and husband and many other relatives. That poor woman had no choice; therefore that marriage was nothing but a mockery of this sacred institution. At that time Muhammad was close to sixty years old.
    Rayhanah

    Another victim of Muhammad was Rayhana, a 15 year old girl from the tribe of Banu Quraiza. Muhammad massacred all the men of that tribe. Then women were brought to him to pick and he chose Rayhana. Rayhana never married Muhammad and unlike Juwairiyah and Safiyah never feigned being a Muslim to have an easier life. She preferred to remain a sex slave rather the wife of the murderer of her father, brothers and uncles. .

    So this is the behaviour we can expect of a true Muslim, Mohammed himself ... so why not terrorism and violence and so on from those who follow his word? Terrorism and Islam seem very compatible from these excerpts and division, war, hatred, vanity, lust, violence all acceptable too.
     
  16. pit

    pit Well-Known Member

    They say that Muhammad's dick was two feet long, which, I guess, is why the Muzzies worship him.


    :sigh:
     
  17. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    Now, let’s take this discussion back to Islam. Islam is not trying to be antagonistic towards non-Muslims by using the term “unbeliever.”

    Then why use that term? Why not use a term of respect like believer in the Hindu faith, for example?

    Muslim scholars have proposed that saying this declaration means necessarily passing this stage of “no god”—unbelief—into arriving at the truth of God.

    But it is NOT a stage of unbelief. It is a stage of belief and strong belief too, Hindu and Christian saints have total belief, one hundred percent belief. Muslims choose to denigrate that belief, that is all.

    Do you feel the same way about the murder of the child in the three different scenarios? No, right?

    The child is innocent in every scenario, you cannot say that that child will grow up to be anything because you cannot know.

    So, what are the solutions? Many times, I see Western countries adopting a confrontational and “my-way-or-the-highway” attitude

    I think this is not true in the UK at least, we are extremely tolerant. Muslims can practice their faith in peace, they have now been allowed to have sharia law (I disagree and fight against this), they can have their own faith schools, in fact even in state schools many provide halal food even though the majority there are not Muslim and even though the RSPCA have stated that the halal way of killing animals is more cruel than non-halal slaughter and so on and so forth. Police are asked to study Muslim culture and even have hand-books given out, uniforms are adapted to fit Muslim clothing restrictions in police and other state/public institutions --- it is hard to know how much further we could go beyond allowing this country to become an Islamic state!!!!! What more can we do? Where is the discrimination? Where is the highway or my way here? Are Muslims denied access to any job, any political position, anything at all? NO.

    It is not the UK who makes Muslims feel like outsiders rather it is the opposite, it is the fundamentalist Muslims who refuse to interact with the host population on any level beyond the most basic of necessity. They ask and are conceded to when they want alcoholic shops moved from being near mosques, they are allowed their own faith schools some of which may soon be publicly funded state schools possibly! THERE IS NO discrimination on our side, to say there is seems to be entirely untrue as far as I can see it. And as we can see, other faiths are also treated with respect and no discrimination - for example if you wish to stand as an MP it matters not at all whether you are Hindu, Bahai, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Agnostic, Atheist and so on and so forth. At my local surgery there is a Muslim (female) doctor and a Hindu (male) doctor, teachers are of all faiths. Where is this discrimination you allude to? If Muslims are being driven out of politics because the electorate are not voting for them, that would most likely be because the electorate feels that they will not represent their interests but I do not believe that to be the case as said in this Muslim article June 25th:

    Muslim councillors on the increase in London

    By Eren Tatari, PhD

    The number of Muslim elected officials in the UK has been increasing at a rather fascinating rate. Compared to their neighbours in France and Germany, British Muslims are much more politically integrated at the local as well as the national level.

    For the past five years, I have been conducting research for my doctoral studies on Muslim councillors across the 32 London boroughs and have compiled a comprehensive dataset dating back to the 1998 local elections. The findings of this research reveal intriguing facts and poses challenging questions for policy scholars.

    There were 83 Muslim councillors in London during the 1998-2002 term, compromising 4.4% of London’s councillors. This figure increased to 115 in the 2002-2006 term (6.1%) and to 146 after the 2006 elections (7.8%). Given that Muslim constituents make up approximately 8.5% of London’s population, their political representation at the local level is getting very close to parity. The trend shows that the percentage increase is levelling off in each successive election.

    As is the case with most minority groups in England, majority of Muslim councillors are from the Labour Party. However, this proportion is decreasing with each subsequent election. After the 1998 elections, 83.1% of Muslim councillors were from Labour. This figure decreased to 75.7% in the 2002 elections and to 70% in the 2006 elections. Tories, Liberal Democrats, and since 2004, the Respect Party, have been picking up the Labour defectors. As of January 2009, 6.8% of London’s Muslim councillors were from the Conservative Party; 13% were from the Liberal Democrats; and 11% were from Respect...

    The percentage of female Muslim councillors in London increased from 12% in the 1998-2002 term to 24.7% in the 2006-2010 term. Hence, one in every five Muslim councillors is a female. The overall percentage of female councillors in London is 31%. On the contrary, no female Muslims were elected to the House of Commons until the recent elections that turned three female Muslim MPs to the Parliament.
     
  18. An Angel in Black

    An Angel in Black Well-Known Member

    im glad we could straighten this out, for a minute there i was relating this info about beating ones wife in islam a sign of terrorism but clearly isnt.
    http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-wife-beating-koran-4-34.htm
    >Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and
    >guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to
    >guard. As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct,
    >admonish them, then refuse to share their beds, and finally
    >beat them

    This isnt something a terorrist would do at all. :)
    as a matter of fact lets take a look at some of those verses in the koran or however the hell you spell that stupid book.

    Qur’an:9:88 – “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

    Qur’an:9:5 - “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

    Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

    Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

    Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

    Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

    Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

    Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

    Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

    Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”

    could this be the book that islam lives by? i think it is :O
    lets see so anyone who doesnt accept the religion is an infidel. That doesnt sound terrorist to me.. :)
    kill the infidel ya know i think they have a word for that what was it again... oh yeh.. JIHAD
    as long as this stupid koran book is the fundementals of teaching islam i dont see it going away anytime soon. So compatible? i didnt even know they were seperate. but im glad we cleared this up, for a second there islam was starting to look pretty bad :) Thank God theyre not terrorists huh
     
  19. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Are they compatible how? In complete opposition of one another, perhaps. I don't think they are synonymous.

    However, on the other hand, Man and terrorism are.
     
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