Are we setting ourselves up?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Kemra, Oct 11, 2010.

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  1. Kemra

    Kemra Well-Known Member

    I had an appointment to go to this morning and as I was waiting to be called in I looked around the office at all the staff on their computers and it got me thinking. Everyone was on their computers, talking on phones, people waiting were on mobiles, no doubt a lot of them had driven their cars to get there, they were wearing clothes made in factories, plastics were everywhere..

    So much of our lives now depend on manufactured goods and technology. Had a conversation with my dad last night about how when we were kids we'd go hunting and fishing, not for fun but to provide meat (dad more so than me), had vegetable gardens, entertainment was playing with friends and as we got older talking to neighbours, visiting family and so on.

    Everday we move further away from those simpler times when we relied more on ourselves and social group, right to the point where todays kids would literally starve without a corner grocery store.. We're losing skills necessary to our survival and todays technology occupies our time so efficiently we don't have time to learn skills like making our own clothes, growing our own food or hunting. In fact in Australia its near impossible to get a gun licence and permission to hunt on someones property.

    What would happen if we lost all these modern day miracles? It could happen, war, natural disaster, Y2k38 (though Y2k wasn't much of a problem), simply running out of resources like oil, inflation making it impossible to buy even basic neccesities like food and water. The last one may seem silly but for a single person who dosen't eat much I was still spending $150 or more on groceries for 2 weeks and my dad just got a $1600 water bill. Should we take a step backwards and start teaching and re-learning survival skills or blindly run into a science fiction like future?
  2. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    If all 6.7 billion of us were expert survivalists, probably 6.5 billion of us would die if something happened to our technology. If we were expert high-intensity farmers, maybe only 6 billion would die. For the most part we're screwed in the event of a technology loss; if there's even enough capacity on the planet to provide all of us with food if farmed intensely by hand, most of it will be in the wrong places. It's not even worth considering, you're either in a technological world or dead *shrug*
  3. nolonger

    nolonger Well-Known Member

    Oil is one of the major problems as far as sustainabilty goes for me.

    When we aren't able to produce gasoline for our cars, we're gonna have a lot of these things lying around. And kids will be born thinking, 'What the hell is that metal thing on wheels?'. 'Well sonny...back in my day....', :laugh:.

    We have only gotten to our degree of population because of the way we are. If we all had to survive on our own half the population wouldn't exist. Australia would be a massive wasteland because most of it can't be farmed(exception of coastal areas etc.).

    Gun licenses in Australia are the way they are. We tend to average around 60-ish deaths a year or something from incidents where firearms are involved. Whereas in the US 11,000 odd people are killed by guns. Of course there is a population difference but not enough to justify 10,940 or so lives. In a way I'm thankful that gun control is so strict in this country, it stops people like me getting our hands on firearms(people with mental illness etc).

    In the end, we have nothing else to do except 'run into a science fiction like future'. Things change, and they don't generally go backwards. It's basically impossible to say 'Ok, let's not evolve technologically and just stay at this very point in time.' - It's like saying that we should have never evolved from being some random caveman trying to eat some dead marsupial he found under a rock. Human nature is to be curious, and to want change. Because if we ever stop changing, we'll go very much insane.

    PS - sorry if any of that seemed slightly harsh, shit day at school :mad:.
  4. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    This is why i was given skills from my grandfather and will pass my skills onto my kids, everything from poaching the fish from the river to making nets and using them for ferreting. I am a village lad and have always hunted for food, nothing like the commercial shooting industry and i always promote hunting wherever i go. So many skills are being lost im forever trying to learn them. people dont even know what lark twirlers are nowadays!
    I have met several city kids who thought beef was "made" in a factory and didnt have a clue where eggs came from. the most disturbing part i find from all this is not necessarily the lack of skills it is the lack of people acknowledging another animal had to die for them to live. I am very mindful of my food and i absolutely loath people wasting food!
    Some of the skills should be taught in schools, if anything it gives the kids something new to try instead of sitting in front of textbooks
  5. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    we can grow in arid areas just look into projects like the greening of eritrea:

    As for gun licenses, this is a sore topic for me, i have read many many reports that show gun licensing holds no correlation to gun crime, in england we have strict control yet still have shootings frequently. and to be perfectly honest i could go out and get a gun any day of the week, theyre not hard to find for sale on the black market. as always i think people forget guns are merely tools. if i was to kill someone, not having a gun wouldnt stop me.
    As it is i know several people with guns that have no licenses.
    Guns are a tool and should be regulated, i think its not a clever thing to do restricting them so much. if a had free access to firearms (which i do tbh) all i would do is go hunting....I have been suicidal for years and years but due to a proper outlook on guns being taught to me the last thing i would ever use is a gun. i dont even point my gun at anything unless i would be willing to shoot it and also many many people have been shot in the head and survived, there are much more efficient ways to go!
    anyhoo rant over :biggrin:
  6. nolonger

    nolonger Well-Known Member

    To be honest, how the fuck do the kids think that? :laugh: Do they not get taught that beef is actually a cow? Or an egg is from a chicken? It's like them asking their parents where babies come from..."Mum...where do babies come from?...", "Well darling....<insert explanation>...", "WHATTTT? BABIES COME FROM HUMANS?? EWWW". Lol :tongue:.

    And yes, gun control can be affected by the views of the country. I've never seen England as a gun crazy country. Last I heard Norway has more guns per capita then the US and all they use it for is hunting etc etc. Many many jobs in the US are based on the survival of firearms. They have massive gun companies that could wreak havok if they were to go broke(working class yanks could loss their jobs). But their history is entwined with guns and violence. So I guess it's fairly obvious :laugh:
  7. Edgar Roni Figaro

    Edgar Roni Figaro Well-Known Member

    Aoeu with proper learning and understanding nearly all human beings with property could provide enough food to feed themselves and their families. I know this because my business is growing and selling organic vegetables and vegetable plants and I grow on 1/8th of an acre.

    I only use heirloom seeds which for those of you who don't know what that means, these are the seeds you can harvest each generation in order to make a superior crop where as hybrid seeds (which are the ones you buy in packets at stores) always revert back to 1 of their 2 parents genetics making them poor 2nd generation plants.

    Understanding ecology such as what flowers attract what insects completely eliminates the need for pesticides. When I plant 10 Yarrow plants in between 100 tomato plants I know that the tiny flowers on the Yarrow plants attract parasitic wasps which will seek out and paralyze tomato horn worms in order to lay their eggs on them. Likewise aphids will attempt to kill my tomato plants but by putting out a few plants of the herb Dill I will attract ladybugs which eat aphids in both their larval and adult form.

    There is an amazing world underneath the world we live in and just a little basic knowledge can allow anyone to grow their own pesticide free food in abundance.

    If I was to grow corn and I took some of the corn and ground it into cornmeal and sprinkled it into the soil I would feed a fungus called trichoderma. This type of fungus not only thrives and multiplies by breaking down cornmeal but once the cornmeal runs out it targets other fungus types such as the dreaded early and late blight which can devastate all crops in the tomato family including peppers, melons, and eggplants.

    It is not difficult to learn these things and to grow a garden. It would take an average family 5 hours per week per member to grow a garden that could feed them for an entire year if canning of excess vegetables was done.

    Having a worm compost bin or a regular compost bin allows all vegetable matter which is not eaten to be thrown into these bins and composted to create fertilizer to feed next years plants. After obtaining the initial seeds and a few simple tools, the only thing stopping people from being able to grow their own food is their lack of understanding which in its most basic form could be learned within 100 hours of reading.
  8. Kemra

    Kemra Well-Known Member

    Was talking to my dad an little sister about this topic again last night, my lil sis was shocked at our talk of hunting 'poor bunny rabbits' and in denial at our talk of meat from supermarkets coming from living animals. At her age I was out hunting kangaroo with my grandfather and used to go fishing every weekend :( Some of the things she said scared me a little and made me wish I had more of a role in her upbringing so we could plant a vegetable garden, maybe teach her to hunt or take her fishing, but my step mom dosen't think they're things a little girl needs to learn. Hopefully though i can help fill in the gaps in what she knows about food and life without modern tech, I was amazed at how much her school dosen't teach, I remember clearly lessons when I was at school about agriculture that was in depth and covered such topics as the use of domesticated animals, crop rotations, commercial fishing, etc. Seems to me this important topic has been replaced by computer studies and similar subjects. Makes me wonder on another point to.. which kids will want to grow up to be farmers or fisherman when theres so many more financially rewarding careers that involve less and less hard work as the tech improves?

    Noticed a lot of people commenting on guns as well, I want to reply to them with 2 of my favorite quotes on the subject:
    When its criminal to own a gun only the criminals will have guns.
    Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

    Gun laws don't stop criminals owning them, they only stop honest people owning them. And its been pointed out that number of gun owners in a country dosen't always = more deaths by firearms, in fact smoking and vehicles kill more people than guns do yet you don't see govt's pushing to make tobacco illegal or car licences instantly revoked if you get caught doing a possibly dangerous violation. Guns are no different to bows, knives, spears, all those were used by humans in the past to not just hunt with but to kill other people, yet our modern society is the first one to outlaw the main modern weapon of its time... how the Romans would have laughed if the senate had tried introducing spear control 2,000 years ago..
  9. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Indeed, weapons have been controlled in all societies ever. For example, in Sparta, only Spartiates were permitted to own weapons - even robust musculature among helots was grounds for execution.

    Another specific example is the attempt to ban the crossbow in the middle ages. This is actually a better example because the crossbow was the start of a set of weapons that could, without any sort of real effort, be used by anyone regardless of skillset to kill anyone else.

    There is also no comparison in lethality between a modern firearm and any weapon which existed before the late 19th century. And there's also basically no need for weapons anymore: we get our food from farms and, except from civilian firearm users, aren't placed in much danger.

    Honestly, though, hunting rifle control strikes me as a heap of shit. Handguns are the weapon of choice for hurting people and aren't used for hunting; in Canada 2/3 of shooting deaths are with handguns, and I'll have to look but I'm pretty sure they make up a tiny proportion of guns owned.

    Oh, and gun control laws aren't designed to stop criminals. It's accepted that they'll have guns, but what can be helped is whether an angry father who finds out his daughter is pregnant won't have a convenient way of killing the boyfriend. It's noteworthy that you're more likely to be killed if you approach a home invader with a gun in your hand.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2010
  10. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    The thing is tech wouldn't fail if people knew how to use it correctly. People in school should have to learn the basic biology of crop rotation and other agricultural ideas and at least basic programming to understand in at least a simple way rather than the more academic subjects of any math past basic algebra and trigonometry.

    There is an amusing article on people unaware of the bare basics of survival coupled with GPS and communication technology making park rangers angry.
  11. Kemra

    Kemra Well-Known Member

    Hmm, something for me to research in my spare time, I didn't know there was an attempted ban on crossbows in the middle ages. But the Spartan example.. Helots were slaves though right? Would be understandable not to allow them to even have a 'robust musculutare' if we think like a slavemaster would, I definetly wouldn't want Sylvester Stallone or Arnie giving me disatisfied looks if they were my slaves.. and Chuck Norris I'd keep in one of those cruel setups where their hands were handcuffed to their feet.. Anyways back to the topic those were just 2 examples of only 2 societies in all of human history, one of which were slaves, as far as I know no slaves have ever been allowed weapons except in rare cases of hunting and slaughtering livestock. And the middle ages one.. shaky ground, one could argue that the peasants of the middle ages were slaves to the middle and upper classes.

    As for lethality I'd have to argue there, I've known people who are just as accurate with a bow and arrow as a gun, for close quarters some would even argue a knife is vastly superior as a weapon compared to a rifle or any other long barrelled weapon used for hunting. I do agree with your point of view on handguns.. theres no practical reason anyone would need one of those unless they were planning on shooting someone. In Aus they gave us the excuse gun control was meant to stop killers like Martin Bryant, I think they realised the argument over crimes of passion would fail as someone angry enough to get a gun and kill someone is also angry enough to use a knife or even their bare hands. I know if someone hurt my little sister bare hands would most likely be my own weapon of choice even if I could own a gun again (can't atm because I'm under psychiatric care, dosen't matter that I'm not violent *cough* prejudice *cough*).
  12. PiecesMended

    PiecesMended Well-Known Member

    I don't trust technology (I still use it as it's hard not to) I wouldn't be suprised if it went wrong and the human race mostly died out as a result. I'm certain that we give machines too much control. I don't know, I'm a bit of a technophobe and I'm only sixteen by the way:)
  13. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    In both the Spartan and crossbow examples the upper classes were defined by military obligation; only those who needed weapons were allowed them.

    So basically the deal was the military was allowed weapons and otherwise they were mostly banned.

    And you might be angry enough to try to kill someone with your bare hands, but be honest: you've a much worse chance than if you use a gun.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2010
  14. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    a knife though is lethal even in the most idiotic hands, a knife like most things is merely a tool....i could make beautiful carvings with the same knife that could kill someone. the problem with the weapons argument is that where do you draw the line?
    Anything can be used as a weapon, are we going to ban people from picking up sticks in the local woods?
    In the UK we have stupid laws surrounding weapons, bow hunting is illegal, yet all apart from deer can be hunted with an arrow (yes we found a way, basically a bows riser, fitted with theraband elastic and serving string we can make a "catty/bow" with a 45-50lb draw weight and just as effective)
    The fact we arent even allowed to use a stick with a string attached to catch our dinner seems somewhat hilarious to me!
    As it is another of my favourite tools is the old pocket poacher (yus again a good old catapult) and my catapult can kill rabbits at a good distance and i have no doubts that a lead shot put between a persons eyes could easily kill them too. the laws are confusing, there seems no logic behind them.
    a decent archer can be more lethal than a rifleman, a decent martial artist can be more lethal than a knife weilding man.....
    I heard about texas, allowing concealed weapons (although you had to be registered to do so) but the point that was to be made in texas was that despite concealed weapons being allowed gun crime did not shoot up (pardon the pun.)
    My main thought on the subject of weapons is that we do not need restricting or licensing, we need regulation. regulate our activities and watch what we do by all means but do not tell us we cannot do something.
  15. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    This has proven pretty much untrue through hundreds of battles in history. Maybe a really bad rifleman would be worse off than an exceptional archer in lethality... but probably not.

    Or two men could be more lethal than one with a knife. The same can't be said about a gun: a knife is far less lethal than a firearm. Further, there has indeed been some thought towards knife control. For one, certain types of knives like switchblades and butterfly knives are banned, and for another I heard about a law in some country against pointed kitchen knives - the blade is a tool, the tip is either a weapon or useless.

    And finally, a handgun is a tool only for killing humans. You don't carve beautiful things or hunt food with them. You shoot people.
  16. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    many many people have been shot in the head and survived, a broadhead to the skull and surviving is something ive never heard of!
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