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Atheists/Unwaivering Agnostics and other Practical Folk

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by sweetles, Nov 25, 2014.

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  1. sweetles

    sweetles Well-Known Member

    Are there any other "nonbelievers" (hate that term) on this site? Those who refuse to turn to the easy, illogical comfort of fairy tales and fluff? With the holiday season underway in the western world and beyond, it can feel pretty isolating when you don't believe in all the religious crap that comes associated with much of these celebrations. and, unlike more hypocritical atheists, i am quite strict about not participating in any holiday ritual whatsoever. i do not go visit my family (not that anyone's inviting me, but still), i do not attend any office xmas parties, i do not decorate my workplace with anything thanksgiving or religious-themed and actually formally protested such decorations to my regional manager, citing the importance of maintaining a welcoming and objective workplace so that now ALL such decorations are banned at all locations. thank you, thank you very much. :)

    yes, i am that girl who in 2nd grade refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance, i am the person who will protest anyone tells me "bless you," when i sneeze or offers a "have a blessed day." it may seem trivial at times but i think the religious majority in this country especially has had their way quite long enough, and the rest of us shouldn't quietly tolerate things anymore.

    still, it can get lonely out there. especially when you add severe depression and anxiety to the mix.

    so this in hopes of finding others who may be of like mind....how long have you been among the enlightened, and what do you do to help get through this annoying and isolating time of year?

    btw, i am 34, became agnostic at 7/8 yrs old and thoughtful atheist at 14.
  2. Freya

    Freya Loves SF Staff Member ADMIN SF Author

    I have moved your thread to the soap box, as this is the only place on SF we allow any form of religious debate.

    Your beliefs are your own and you are entitled to them. I am also not religious but I do not presume to prevent other people from celebrating their own religions and expression of the freedom of religion does not offend me. I am perfectly happy for people to have Christmas lights, Eid lights, Diwali lights or any other lights/decorations/festivities they please. I am not miserly enough to begrudge people happiness in their celebrations.

    I am very glad I live in a country where people are allowed to celebrate religion freely and I am happy that my office would tell anyone who didn't like the Christmas tree to get the hell over it - much as they would if they didn't like the colour of the walls. To force your opinion on others to the extent of removing their happiness and pleasure in their religion - a religion that you are under no obligation to practise or participate in - is the epitome of small minded pettiness in my opinion and isn't a very large step from persecuting people.

    So while I am atheist - no I am not a "like minded person" you can connect with I am afraid. I hope there are not many like minded people here. I prefer to believe that the "enlightened" as you put it are the people who recognise that people should be able to celebrate whatever religion they please - in the name of freedom - without other people making them feel bad about it.

    Forcing your misery onto others - the "why should they be happy if I am not" attitude - is rude, mean and generally abhorrent in my opinion.
  3. SillyOldBear

    SillyOldBear Teddy Bear Fanatic Staff Alumni

    Yes, you are the one who forces your beliefs, or lack of them on others. Doesn't seem much different then the believers who want to celebrate the holidays according to their beliefs.
  4. True-Lee

    True-Lee Well-Known Member

    Yes, You are the Ones that don't want Goodness and Light, You wish Darkness and Gloom.

    You want to deprive people of what gives so many of them hope and cheer. That wishes others Good health and Long Life. When you take anything away from people that lifts them up and helps them get through hard times, you are depriving them of goodness and what are you giving them in return? Nothing, Negative, Zip, Zilch, Zero. Are You lifting them up? Not that I can see. In no way that I have heard of are you giving, You are Just taking.

    I think you should go visit your Ilk in North Korea, or perhaps The Peoples Republic of China, there you will find like minded people. To bad, I can tell by your age you weren't around you would have liked Pol Pot in Cambodia, he liked taking things away from people too, You could have gone and compared your triumphs with them and shared good times and slap each other on the backs and brag how much misery you caused. Misery does Like Company. But be careful because even there you will find people spreading Peace and Goodness, hidden as they are in the dark corners, trying to spread a little light in the world. You notice I didn't say to stay there, I wouldn't wish those places on any one. Not Even You!

    I am not surprised at the response you have received so far, I wonder how many of the people that reach out to help others....... Naa I am not going there. Think About that.
  5. sweetles

    sweetles Well-Known Member

    wow. i must admit i am quite shocked that my little post evoked such a negative reaction amongst those i previously believed to be mostly kind, welcoming people. it was not my desire to begin any sort of religious debate whatsoever, i simply wished to reach out to those like myself who can feel especially alone and isolated this time of year because they do not share (or pretend to share) commonly held religious beliefs and therefore do not participate in any of the hullabaloo surrounding it all. it is also not my desire to "diminish" anyone else's joy...i am a firm believer in religious freedom, which includes my freedom to be able to enter a public space and purchase a cup of coffee or have my identification renewed without having someone's religion thrown in my face. i fully support everyone's right to adorn their private property however they choose, erect a life-sized statue of their religious prophet on their front lawn if they wish, but i do not feel these things should be a part of public (non-religious) spaces/businesses.

    as for the idea that i must somehow spread misery and do nothing for others, i find that pretty hurtful and incredibly ignorant. at least 20% of my meager, poverty-level income goes to various charities every payday, i volunteer at my local food bank weekly, and just days ago gave my newest pair of sneakers (cute and pink) to a homeless girl begging for change near my job. i also attempt to pass on this message of doing whatever we can to help others, even when we're not in such a great position ourselves, to my coworkers and just whoever i happen to come across, leaving information, brochures, asking if they'd like to tag along, etc, and it's usually tossed in the trash without a second glance. of course i wouldn't dare suggest there's any correlation, but most of these people would label themselves religious.

    but again, i do not wish to debate with anyone. the reality is this time of year is difficult for those of us suffering from depression and suicidal ideation anyway, but when you add the isolation of not being a participant in religious festivities and rituals it's even more challenging. so i was hoping to hear how others coped with these difficulties, that is all. hopefully there will be some positive responses.
  6. JmpMster

    JmpMster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    It is not a case of "not being able" to participate- and the vast majority of the holiday celebrations complete ignore christmas as a religious holiday- you actively decline to participate (not just decline to participate in the religious aspects) but also attempt to make what is just a "day" for fun and gifts and laugh with no religious meaning at all to the vast majority and take that away from people by your own admission. If you are lonely and feeling like you are separated from others then it is entirely by your own choice and when you attempt to do the same to the others it is not surprising that is what is reflected back to you. I am sure that your coworkers saying happy holidays or pretending that this month was special or or a reason to be kind caused you pain for some reason and your joy at canceling that for all the employees in your company (not just where you work) speaks volumes about you. It has nothing to do with religion- they were not trying to take you to church- they were trying to be nice and have fun- and that is how you repaid it - sorry - I do in fact lack sympathy for completely intentionally self inflicted harm by choice.

    So far as 20% of your income - yay for you- is a pity you do not understand that simple kindness is far more valuable than money to the vast majority of the world and that is free- simply stop telling others what to believe and learn that "happy holidays" has no religious meaning to most saying it at all. Unless you are in church on chrismas 80% of the kids have no clue what christmas is about- and Santa Claus has nothing to do with god in the least- which is the reason why most of the devout religious completely ignore the holiday in public (the same as you) because it has no religious meaning in the way it is celebrated. Your "donations" did nothing for the fact you took what can be a "fun" time of year away from those people around you and turned a simple courtesy like "bless you" when you sneeze into a religious incursion on your "rights". The list of places where you can enjoy that "right" to your hearts content was already given- all happy joyful places with lots of freedoms. Religious freedom means you can choose or choose not but you insist it MUST mean you get to choose for those around you even if it has no religious meaning at all- that is sad and small.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2014
  7. Bart

    Bart Banned Member

    I do not think for one minute that the thread was created in the expectation that there would be a flood of support. Quite the opposite. Sweeties, whilst I believe that SF is non-judgemental, and perhaps you have been treated harshly, you did rather bring it on.I offer you this from Matthew 7. 'Do not judge, or you too will be judged.For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you'. Fairly sound advice, in my opinion.
  8. True-Lee

    True-Lee Well-Known Member

    I was going to write again last night, A response to "Your Claim" that You Were Shocked. I was so upset and Bothered at this I just had to take some time out/off and it was just as well I did. In My Opinion Your attitude knows no bounds now, The People that you thought were mostly Kind Welcoming People? Still are Kind Welcoming People, I have never seen a shred of Judgement come forth from this Forum, I have only seen them react to comments that were negative or judgmental of others.

    Here is A Maxim that you apparently forgot or never learned. This is called the Golden Rule, it is not a Religious statement, however it is followed by an overwhelming majority of religions. I wonder, Would You Like this to to be banned at any specific time of year or Holiday or Celebration.

    The Golden Rule or The Ethic Or Reciprocity

    One Should Treat Others As One Would like Others To Treat Ones Self

    The Silver Rule

    One Should Not Treat Others In A Ways That One Would Not Like To Be Treated.

    I can not help but feel that if "All" People Practiced these Two Maxims, The world would Be a better and more Friendly Place.
  9. Aquarius123

    Aquarius123 Well-Known Member

    I wonder what you'll say to me when I respond to it with: 'Gesundheit!'

    With love (hope you don't mind me using that word) - Aquarius

  10. AsphyxiateOnWords

    AsphyxiateOnWords Eρεβος/Νύξ

    Well, I may be the only one here who thinks this, but oh well. It seems to me that you aren't trying to force your beliefs upon anyone, but rather trying to prevent others from forcing theirs upon you. And I say that because, A.) Forcing children to say the word 'God' during the pledge of allegiance is manipulative and wrong. It's like they're trying to instill certain beliefs in children while they're still teachable and naive. B.) Same with religious workplace decorations, for the most part...if they are in places where everyone has to look at them, anyway. If it's like in someone's private office or cubicle, then fine, that's theirs and they can decorate it however they want. But if it's like right smackdab in the middle of the entire room for everyone to look at, then that's different. Now, me, personally, it doesn't really offend to see things like that. I just ignore them. But I do understand how/why it may offend other people. Just like if an atheist put up some anti-religious decorations in the workplace for everyone to look at, it would also be offensive. Not to mention, people are vastly mistaken to believe that Christmas has anything to do with Jesus, anyway. It was originally a pagan holiday that Christians, technically, stole (just like the plethora of other things they stole from the pagans...no offense to anyone here, but it's true). And Jesus himself, was Jewish.

    Yeah...well, I'm probably going to catch a lot of heat now. But those are my thoughts on the matter.
  11. justMe7

    justMe7 Well-Known Member

    I could write a long winded response, but in all fairness I'm just me. And from my experience, regardless of what you believe, you are all trapped in this thing we called life. How you want to paint the limitations and exceptions are up to you.

    I can neither confirm nor deny the possibility in a more "capable" being. It's a matter of belief. And I really do understand people beliving in a god or something greater that connects to the better understandings of life.

    I however am stuck with just me. I can tolerate and even participate other peoples practices because I respect their views(as best as I generally can). And in the end, I don't really know better. However if you use your belief to harm something or someone else? That's a different story. I hate being lumped into a category. I'm simply me :)
  12. Aquarius123

    Aquarius123 Well-Known Member

    Yes, in my view your advice is sound, because St. Matthew's words contain a reminder of the Universal law - some, including me, call it God's law - of Karma, i.e. of cause and effect as it manifests itself at any time in every life.
    With love - Aquarius
  13. Freya

    Freya Loves SF Staff Member ADMIN SF Author

    Atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of god or gods. Anti-religious decorations are not atheist decorations - anti-religion is a whole different thing than atheism. Atheists insisting that people not publically celebrate their religion is as bad as a religious person saying 'you must believe in my god'. My dad is an staunch atheist and I have been brought up with extremely strong issues with being preached to/at - everyone should be free to believe what they believe without being pressured to change their beliefs or have their beliefs demeaned, oppressed or diminished. Christmas decorations do not demean, belittle or oppress other religions or atheists - they express joy and celebrate - that is all. An anti-religious decoration, by definition, is in opposition to a religion - that is a different thing. Christmas decorations do not say "you should believe this or celebrate this" - they say "I/we believe this and celebrate this".

    An atheist decoration would have no religious overtone, pro or anti. It would just be a decorative thing that people can take pleasure in (or not as they choose) and there are far far far more of those, all through the year, in almost every public space everywhere. Should we then ban ALL decoration of any kind? Why should atheists get to have their non-religious decoration all over the world all throughout the year if Christians cannot put up a tree and some lights for a few weeks?

    Atheists do not believe in a god or gods - and that is their right. It is NOT their right to stop people from publically celebrating the things they do believe in. Here (as in the town in which I live) people celebrate the summer equinox, there is a gala for labour day, there is a parade for the start of the international youth music festival, there are multiple Halloween celebrations, there is a festival and gala to celebrate harvest, there are Eid lights and Diwali lights and Christmas lights, there is a garden party for the start of summer with a huge fete. The list goes on. Schools hold religious assemblies for EVERY religious holiday and people can attend or not - and most kids go to all of them because OTHER PEOPLE'S JOY is not some offensive contaminant.

    If you do not want to participate in whatever is being celebrated - that is your right. To prevent other people from finding joy in their celebration - be it of Christmas, international friendship, summer, labour day, harvest time, the thinning of the veil between our world and the next - whatever their celebration - to demand that they STOP and that they do not demonstrate their joy and happiness in a place where you can see it, is mean and miserly beyond my ability to comprehend. To be offended by someone else's joy is incredibly sad. To intentionally hinder and put limitations on their joy, when their ONLY intent is to include anyone and everyone who wishes to participate, is absolutely wrong.
  14. Raven

    Raven Guest

    The only time I have a problem with religion is when people want the government to become involved, a great example of this is the Texas school board that has put into text books that Moses was a major influence is the founding of America. The fight should not be on holidays or on people that want to celebrate and put up lights (heck I have a ton of Christmas lights up). What people should be alarmed about is the fundamentalists that want to put creationism in school and deny basic science. The people who are doing the best to fight this are the Satanists, just look them up.

    Atheists do not believe in a god or gods - and that is their right. It is NOT their right to stop people from publically celebrating the things they do believe in

    Freya perfectly said and this should be pointed out again and again and again, I am an agnostic atheist and a major anti-theist, I think religion is one of the great poisons in the world. If we ever passed a law banning religion, churches or even those annoying preachers with mega-phones I would be the first to say that doing so is wrong, unethical.

    I will also say that straight calling people out for being weak for believing in God does not endear oneself or your point, some very educated people are believers so I do not think it is bound in fear, or just something that someone falls onto as a security blanket. Do not attack the believer but attack the religion that is far more fun. And if you want to convert people the thing I always say is this, go and read the bible and see exactly what is in it, study Mark, Matthew, Luke and John and if you really want a fun time read the old testament, it has some crazy stuff in it.

    Me I do not celebrate Christmas, I celebrate the Yule, the coming of spring and the return of the dang sun not going down at 4:30 at night. The lights are not christen but pagan, the tree, pagan, the giving of gifts again pagan. I don’t give presents to friends or family I give them to the people who at this time of year have nothing, go find a tree and find a kid that does not want a toy but socks because their feet are cold, help your local church feed the homeless, or cloth those who have nothing.

    Fight the good fight, not the people who say bless you but the people who want to say we are a christen nation, not the people putting up trees or lights but the people who want evolution to no longer be taught. Not the moderate christen but the people trying to bring about the apocalypse.
  15. sweetles

    sweetles Well-Known Member

    well i had a long thoughtful response but the internet ate it, and my energy is gone for the day. so i will keep it brief: the comments here HAVE been very hurtful and shocking to me, again i was NOT looking to create a debate of any kind, i was reaching out for help, suggestions, and yes fellowship with those who may be in the same boat. the fact is i AM a very kind, generous, caring person, and that is the way i go about life...treating others the way i desperately wish they would treat me, no matter what. this has not led to anything but my being stomped upon by everyone my whole lifelong, but still this is just the way i am. so at my workplace for instance, it is my wish that everyone feel welcomed, not just those who happen to practice one particular religious faith. however commercialized most holidays may be in the western world, that does not change the fact that they are in indeed symbols of religious HOLY days. you are in fact hurting someone else when you force them to walk into a retail environment loudly excluding them for their beliefs, culture, etc. just because it is not your own. a lack of holiday décor has not led to some grim joyless workplace, rather it has led to employees being far more imaginative and joyous in their décor ideas (again being a retail environment it is important that there be décor of some kind). there is a company newsletter where every week particular stores are noted for their exceptional gorgeous fall, breast cancer month, winter, football, etc. concepts. the customers seem to enjoy it as well as in our location we receive comments daily on how pleasant an environment it is. the thanksgiving, xmas, etc. stuff does not seem to be missed.

    AOM, thank you for understanding my intent and it's nice to know that someone else can relate to the difficulties or just plain annoyances nonbelievers can face this time of year.
  16. Donnanobispacem

    Donnanobispacem Well-Known Member

    It's our history, I grew up in England and much of art, literature, architecture etc is filled with religious symbolism ( which I am sure the majority of people don't notice either! ) Despite the bloodiness of it all there is a lot of beauty in the cathedrals and castles and paintings etc.

    I find the holidays quite a challenge, my atheist son comes home and makes everything sulky and miserable, and the media constantly push images of happy families and couples- mostly spending money they don't have, so I suppose their faux-joy would be in reality short-lived...

    I don't care about religion any more, superstition brings a lot of misery to people's lives, and I've gone past the stages of life where I want to challenge it or change it or reform it or whatever. I simply don't care, I don't believe it makes any difference the majority of it, except some people find it comforting I suppose. I don't so I just don't think about it much now. I've learned to try not to undermine people who seem to need their beliefs, however inconsistent or irrational, I just ignore them too!

    If I like something- like a Christmas tree or ornament, just like with a painting or poem, I don't stop to analyze whether I 'believe in' it or not, it's just an object I will enjoy for a time...there's no need to have a joy-less existence just because the world is overall a disappointment! I'm not going to subscribe to the myth of 'Black Friday' shopping deals, but sometimes it's nice to go out and buy something I need or have wanted. Doesn't mean I will now embrace consumerism or get into any debt...I can do what I want, believe what I want, think what I want in these things.

    I've stopped wishing the world was a better place. I've stopped wishing there was some visible evidence of a deity or of human compassion. If the universe is indifferent it is what it is, but today the trees were beautiful, music was beautiful, my Thanksgiving pork roast was pretty good.

    There's no point striving to be anything for any kind of higher belief if it doesn't reduce anxiety or make me content in the small things I am able to control and enjoy. I think that's what I mean to say, I have ranted against the stupidity and injustice of the world enough for one lifetime! The holidays are a sham and as usual today's a miserable day if I let it...nothing to be done about it except endure and enjoy what I can.

    Happy Holidays!
  17. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Except that your atheism is not the source of your holiday misery, your intolerant attitude towards theists is. It repels people from socializing with you, and makes you seem rude and unapproachable. Battling it out with someone for innocuously saying "bless you" after you sneeze is going to leave you fighting and losing for the rest of your life. It's a gesture of kindness, not a sermon. Be wise enough to recognize that and politely say thank you anyway. Interpret being blessed however you like.

    As a "nonbeliever," no, I am not offended by theists peaceably practicing their religion and giving me blessings, wishing me well, saying "merry Christmas"; I don't take offense to any of it. You have to choose your battles in life, and the battle to remove someone else's primary source of comfort and hope - no matter how silly, foolish or ignorant you may think it is - isn't bringing you happiness.

    So why bother? Focus on figuring out your own ideas and philosophy more than grumbling about being offended at people praying for you. You say that among your traits is kindness. Why do you think it is kind to berate someone for their religion? It is no different from a theist demonizing us for being nonbelievers. Be better.

    Of course that doesn't mean you need to pretend to also follow their religion. Just be respectful and tolerant, and they'll respect that you don't follow. I go to churches for meals sometimes, so I'm exposed to nothing but Christians. I don't pitch a fit when they pray or say "the lord will make a way" and so on. I just thank them for their well wishes and be on my merry way. Now once they start preaching at me and saying I'm inferior or the devil and the like, then my mouth is justifiably at work. You just have to let the harmless stuff go, let people do their thing as long as they aren't harming anyone else.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2014
  18. AsphyxiateOnWords

    AsphyxiateOnWords Eρεβος/Νύξ

    Atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of god or gods. Anti-religious decorations are not atheist decorations - anti-religion is a whole different thing than atheism.

    When I said anti-religious, I didn't mean, for instance, an upside down pentagram like I have on my avatar (which, by the way, for those who don't know, has nothing to do with satanism, it's a symbol of the black metal culture), I meant something about evolution or just anti-theistic imagery.

    Like this - http://stuffpoint.com/evolution/image/336677-evolution-richard-dawkins-quote-2.jpg
    Or this - http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/bloggers/god-is-a-myth2.jpg
    Or this - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Atheist_Bus_Campaign_Citaro.jpg'

    Atheists insisting that people not publically celebrate their religion is as bad as a religious person saying 'you must believe in my god'.

    Sorry, but, I disagree. An atheist saying 'You must not believe in god' would be the same as a religious person saying 'you must believe in my god'. But atheists insisting that religious imagery not be shoved in their faces is the same as religious people not wanting the imagery I used as an example above to not be shoved in theirs.

    My dad is an staunch atheist and I have been brought up with extremely strong issues with being preached to/at - everyone should be free to believe what they believe without being pressured to change their beliefs or have their beliefs demeaned, oppressed or diminished. Christmas decorations do not demean, belittle or oppress other religions or atheists - they express joy and celebrate - that is all.

    I agree about Christmas lights and the like. Hell, I put up Christmas lights, too. But that's where I think the OP's post was taken out of context. I think she was talking about religious Christmas decorations, in particular. As for your dad, well, just be glad Richard Dawkins isn't your dad, lol. You'd have it a lot worse, then XP. But, in all seriousness though, I do understand. A lot of us get preached at by our parents at a young age, whether about religion, or anti-religion.

    An anti-religious decoration, by definition, is in opposition to a religion - that is a different thing. Christmas decorations do not say "you should believe this or celebrate this" - they say "I/we believe this and celebrate this".

    Well, if that's the case, then the first two examples I put up don't say 'You should believe in this', either. They could, just as well, simply say 'I believe in this, and I'm proud of it.' Christmas decorations with God and the Virgin Mary and all that, undoubtedly, say 'This is my religion and this is real.' Agreed? So, let's take the 'God is a myth' picture for example...all it says is basically 'God is not real'. It doesn't say nobody else has the right to believe, does it? And yet, most theists would find it offensive. The second picture, where it mentions gravity, isn't saying not to believe in God either, it's defending the theory of evolution from theists who claim it's only a theory. Now, granted, the third picture is saying 'Stop worrying and enjoy your life', so I'll give it to you there, it is basically telling theists not to believe in God. So, that one in particular, I'll agree it would project a slightly different message than a Christmas decoration with the Virgin Mary on it. But...and tell me if I'm wrong when I say this, but theists often project the same exact message of 'convert to my religion' in even more offensive ways than that, if we take our debate beyond just Christmas decorations. Take churches, for example. I have one right near my house that constantly puts up offensive religious messages right by a busy road for everyone to look at. Last summer, when temperatures hit 100 degrees, it put up this one particular message that said 'You think it's hot here? Imagine hell.'

    to demand that they STOP and that they do not demonstrate their joy and happiness in a place where you can see it, is mean and miserly beyond my ability to comprehend. To be offended by someone else's joy is incredibly sad. To intentionally hinder and put limitations on their joy, when their ONLY intent is to include anyone and everyone who wishes to participate, is absolutely wrong.

    Well, again, if that's the case then it shouldn't be a problem for an atheist to put up things like 'God is a myth' in public places either. But we all know that's not the case. People would complain and complain and never stop. And even if it was on their own personal property, such as their front lawn, and it was a matter of free speech that police could do nothing about, someone (a theist) would eventually take it upon themselves to destroy it to send a message of their own.

    With that being said, Freya, I just want to say I very much respect you as a person, and it's not my intention to try to offend you or anyone else here. I just wanted to state a contrasting opinion in the thread.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2014
  19. justMe7

    justMe7 Well-Known Member

    Sorry if I added to offending you. Definitely wasn't my intention
    It just clicked that you made this post looking for like minded people. Maybe the soap box wasn't the best place to move this. We(or atleast I) tend to be a little unforgiving when posting opinions in this forum. What about re-making this in buddy chat or coffee shop forum? Or one of the more relaxed forums atleast. I think you're getting "critical" responses not because of who you are and your methods, but more because it's in the Soap Box. We kinda clash at times here especially when it comes to different perspectives in life. Maybe try to keep that inmind if you re-read the posts. It's not really something to take too personally, it's more another side to the coin so to say.

    If your position was not meant for debate, please don't feel you need to defend yourself. This entire site is meant to be a safe place for you to express who you are, and receive... positive support. If it bothers you, you can leave the thread and let it go wherever it goes. Or you can ask a mod to lock/delete it. But don't feel you need to defend yourself on a position you didn't intentionally mean to be put in a firing line.

    Which is where you are standing by the way. Bare that in mind :) Kind Regards
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2014
  20. Event_Horizon

    Event_Horizon SF Supporter

    No one is putting a gun to my head and demanding I put up a Christmas tree. I will be cooking lamb Dhansak and inviting friends over to watch horror films on the day. I begrudge no one how far involved in this holiday season they want to go. As an agnostic I don't care. It is not affecting me in any meaningful way. There is nothing to be gained by pissing on others festivities because one side or the other takes offence over trivial things.

    I agree it should be kept out of work though. As often in a work environment, you lose the aspect of choice. There can be subtle or not so subtle pressures at work. But the mood of the many will out weigh the mood of the few.

    I would love to test the double standard and see if I could set up a Satanist holiday in the work place hang decorations of the mother of monsters and invoke demons to bless us with knowledge. I am guessing no, I wonder if any one would be offended? Lol, which highlights nothing more than majority rule is at work as is a rather blatant double standard that AOM highlighted well.

    But also Christmas is a tradition that falls outside the scope of being solely religious, for many it is just about family and the latest Ipad and good grub and getting time off work and seeing children's faces light up.

    Businesses simply embody Christmas spirit as it is one of the largest sales seasons, I am sure they would endorse my Satanist holiday also if it sold more toasters in one month than the rest of the year.

    Does the sight of a virgin Mary damage your quality of life in any meaningful way?

    I dislike Consumermass personally, but when I was a functioning human being we would gather up some of the clients and take them for a xmas meal, arrange transport and pick them all up. It meant then many were not isolated. That is more meaningful to me than trivial issues of my dislike of having to shop at inflated prices.

    Being an Atheist does not make you enlightened, it is funny to me that many militant atheists refer to religion as fairy tales and fluff. But if I take multi verse hypothesis and run with it there is nothing stopping me tripping infinite universes and finding fairies, creatures made of fluff and even gods that abandoned former realities, that explain the constant expansion of the universe we are still puzzling over. Regardless once it becomes observable, science can be done Who knows and how does knowing or not knowing effect me in the now? Till it matters one way or the other I don't care.

    I do however care about religion messing with education and bleeding through into pro life policies as well as being responsible for a lot of unstable geopolitics.

    Saying that though my quality of life is not effected by the concept of Christ. I am not being bombed by phosphorous based weaponry because my religious ideologies are not the same. I am not a child being burned to death for witchcraft. Nor am I being exterminated for harbouring a particular faith. Nor am I being discriminated against to the point if I was a homosexual pouring urine on my head and beating me to death is entirely acceptable. In lieu of those realities, Christmas decorations and saying bless you seems so painfully trivial in comparison.

    I endorse compassion and focusing on our similarities over our differences. Sometimes to be compassionate is to concede just for the sake of not being a kill joy.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2014
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