Baptism - lets debate this....

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by White Dove, Sep 11, 2007.

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  1. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member

    okay

    Water baptism - immerision in water as a burial for our sins to walk in newness of life..

    I am Church of Christ and we believe in full water batism..

    Anyone care to debate this?

    Such as using sprinkling , or just that it is not even needed and a person can just say a sinners prayer and be saved? or ????

    Please back up your words with verses if at all possiable , oh yeah and PLEASE be nice....
     
  2. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Well, if I am not mistaken, C.O.S. and some other Christian sects only baptize once the person reaches the age of consent (for baptism...13, 14 or so). I don't believe it matters whether it is a sprinkling or full immersion. It is the INTENTION that matters. God knows your heart. If you are sprinkled and believe in the baptism in your heart, then that is sufficient. If it is immersion, but you do NOT believe in it, then it is not meaningful.

    As Catholics, we are baptized at infancy and then "Confirmed" around the age of 14 or whenever you choose to be after that age. Originally, Catholics believed that you needed to be baptized to be "saved" which is why they did it at infancy, just in case the baby died...the baby would still go to Heaven and not "Limbo", which was traditionally thought to be the place reserved for unbaptized infants.

    Nowadays, the Catholics believe that an unbaptized child can go to Heaven regardless of "original sin" (the sin of Adam and Eve which made us all imperfect and therefore unworthy of God's presence). Thus, a Catholic baptism is now a ceremony during which the parents promise to raise the child with a Christian/Catholic upbringing, and the child is blessed/sanctified by a priest. Once the child reaches the "age of consent" (i.e. they are capable of understanding their faith and able to make an informed decision about whether or not to participate in it for life), they take classes which elucidate the Catholic faith and then go through a ceremony "confirming" their participation and belief in the faith, which is essentially what many Protestants call "Baptism". We call it "Confirmation" because it is a confirmation of the faith into which your parents originally baptized you.

    In Catholicism, if you convert to this religion in your later years, Baptism (as initiated by John the Baptist) and Confirmation can take place at the same time in a single ceremony which is much like the Protestant baptism ceremony.

    Either way, I do not believe it makes a difference. God wants us all to be with Him, so it doesn't matter whether you are fully immersed or whether it is a sprinkling of water. It is the will of the individual to be united with God that is the important issue. God would not exclude anyone from Heaven based on a technicality.
     
  3. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy Active Member

    lol. I'm always up for a debate. Baptism is a sham. So are all other religious rituals and religions in general.

    I would like to know why it is that the all mighty, mr. omnipotent, can't balance a checkbook? He's so f'ing great but he can't pay his damn bills. Why is it that all churches need money all the time? IMO baptist's are amongst the worst perpetrators. My aunt and uncle are forced by their church to give up 10% of their earnings to the church. Why does worshipping cost so much freakin' money?
     
  4. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    First of all, that was unproductive to say the least. Second of all, not ALL religions require money. Mine (Catholic) does not. They pass around a basket for donations, but it is in NO way required or even looked down upon if you do not give money. In fact, my church gives money to people who do not even believe, not to convert, but to HELP. And this post was about Baptism, not about money.
     
  5. Panther

    Panther Well-Known Member

    the bit about money is very true, but like the previous poster said this debate is about baptism, if you wanna rant then do another thread, this thread is not for people to say that baptism is a sham either.
     
  6. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    It's just a ritual. Water probably signifies something. It was a custom in old Palestine apparently. A symbol of purification perhaps? When you wash yourself, it does feel like you're "born again" in a sense, doesn't it? Same with cutting your hair or even your fingernails... Maybe we feel like we come out of the womb again when we come out of water.
    Swimming is a lot of fun too. We regress into earlier stages of evolution, which are still represented by some parts of the brain.
    Jesus does say "who drinketh from my water will never be thirsty again". The language of the prophets, promising salvation.
    I can't believe in these things anymore...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2007
  7. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    a person changes by way of faith in leading a new life, ceremony and prayer creates the necesary atmosphere for reflection, baptism to me is a visual enactment of a concept, maybe its needed maybe its not, its not my place to say.

    Peace and quiet should be cherished as an escapist activity, in my eyes its a very slow and gradual thing accepting death. Its also quite a scary thought as our lives are founded on sensations, it just seems to me in all honesty lately that people are born on earth to live a slow and painful death till they accept christ. Which blows in my eyes, I only just got here, pssssh
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2007
  8. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member


    What does that mean "accepting christ"? I really want to know what you mean by that because I am curious at the effects of it you describe.
     
  9. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    maybe my perception of what christ is, is wrong. I'm not a well educated man. In that sense i was talking about unravelling ones mind to the child which is born, in its fragile and pure state, beneath the layers of confusion that is compounded on it, take away the habitual responses of a person who has lived without christ and thats what your left with. its the sum of a confused mind slowly waking up to its fragile nature. I shouldn't probably speak of such things as i am guessing, for all i know I'm talking of satan. I know not of the religion i speak but what perceptions I gather from the manifestation of energy in my mind
     
  10. Blacksheep

    Blacksheep Well-Known Member

    i happen to find all religion and religious practices completely idiotic....but thats just me...
     
  11. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    you talk so much nonsense, please do yourself a favour and give up you complete schizo loser
     
  12. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    yes, a typical response from someone who has no faith, just go around destroying everything that we christians have done for you you ungrateful toerag
     
  13. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member


    bite me, your living in a dream world
     
  14. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    shut up
     
  15. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    WTF??? Stop replying to yourself.
     
  16. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Can we possibly get back to the issue at hand, which is whether or not baptism is 1.) necessary, and 2.) If it has to be done in a certain way (i.e. a sprinkling of water vs. full immersion)?

    If you think religion is bullshit, then don't bother responding because that is NOT the question.
     
  17. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member

    What about the time Jesus himself was baptized in water.. it was a full immersion.. and i saw him coming up from out of the water and a voice from heaven said behold this is my son in whom i am well pleased?

    What about GAL. 3:26 -27 " have you been baptized have put on christ "

    if in order to put on Christ you have to be baptized into Christ , then why take it away?

    You have to make contact with his blood somehow... right ??
     
  18. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    do you mean jesus? what is so special about that child? Isn't every childbirth that special? Is it not possible that you are praising this special happening of child birth in itself and have symbolized it in the birth of Jesus?
    Or am I missing the point?

    Jesus is man and god at the same time, right? We have turned God into a man. Why? I have pondered on the question wether Jesus is a way for mankind to worship itself. We feel sorry for ourselves, for our condition, and concentrate this "self pity as a species" in one man, namely the suffering christ on the cross. It would be impossible to feel sorry for every human being without making the mistake of objectifying them, and so we project this pity into ONE man: Jesus.
    The same way it is possible you feel the birth of baby Jesus is divine, because you feel childbirth in itself is divine, you have projected that feeling in one person, whom you see as a "god". "God" is then the need to speak of the totality of human lives metaphorically as one chosen person.

    These are just thoughts... I don't know if I'm making sense and I could well be wrong on this one. I have no talent for religious experience, but I want to understand it.
     
  19. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

    I have been baptised as an adult - "believer's baptism". My personal belief is that it is something that should be undertaken by an individual who is old enough to make up their own mind and take their own stand on what they believe, so not necesarily 'adult' but not babies either. Whilst I believe that it is not an absolute necessity to be baptised going with the bibke verse "believe and repent and you shall be saved" - thus believing and repenting being the only two necessaries) I do believe that it is something that Christians are called to do by God as an act of obedience and as an open demonstration of their faith. I agree with the person towards the start that it is the *intention* that is the most important part, not how it is done or how much water is used. Yes, Jesus was fully immersed, but (feel free to correct me here) I don't think there is anywhere that says that full immersion is the only acceptable form of baptism. There are other ways in which acts are caried out but not totally identical to Jesus' day - take communion, most churches probably do not use the exact same unleavened bread and wine that would have been used at the Last Supper, but at the same time it is the symbolic act that is recognised as being so important, not necessarily exactly how it is done. Just my thoughts on things, anyway, feel free to disagree or agree as you wish to.
     
  20. Zueri

    Zueri Well-Known Member

    Hmm, symbolically, baptism with water is nice idea and such. (Water is portrayed very nicely as a cleansing power, though keep in mind it didn't originate with Christianity.) I guess anything that's done with the proper intentions works, so full immersion vs. sprinkling seems like a triviality to me. ^_^ Just because Christ was fully immersed doesn't make a difference, at least not to me. Anyways, if the person's belief is sincere, is it fair to deny them entrance into the Church simply because their method of baptism wasn't "proper?"
    The ritual itself does, however, seem necessary. It's basically an initiation ritual in my eyes - where the "baptisee" takes the step from simply agreeing with the doctrines of Christianity to entering the Church family.

    On a side note, baptism at birth is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm positive that somebody is going to argue that it's important to "wash away the Original sin" as soon as possible, BUT...when an infant is baptized he/she has no idea what's going on. Later on in life, when the person can make their own decisions seems a more appropriate time for baptism. ie - They themselves choose to become Christian, and it's not merely there parents' decision.
    (Another side note: The term original sin isn't actually mentioned in the Bible... :unsure: )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2007
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