Bible Question (For Christians)

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Entoloma43, Jun 12, 2008.

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  1. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

    According to Christianity, the bible was inspired by God through the original authors, or some Christians believe it is the direct word of God.

    How do you know the bible is accurately representing what the original authors wrote?


    A bit of history:

    The old testament was originally written in Hebrew. It was then translated into Greek. The Greek version became the basis of its canon. (list or set of Biblical books considered to be authoritative as scripture by a particular religious community, generally in Judaism or Christianity.)

    The new testament was originally written in Greek, and nearly all translations are based upon this.

    We then have translations of English. As most know, modern day English is far different than other versions of English.

    Here is a timeline:

    Old English (pre-1066)
    Middle English (1066-1500)
    Early Modern English (1500-1800)
    Modern Christian (1800-)

    Beyond modern Christian English, we still have bibles with multiple new translations, in attempt to make it easier to read.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    * No original manuscript of any biblical book has survived! All of the texts written by the biblical authors themselves have been lost or destroyed over the centuries. All we have are copies of copies of copies, most of them copied hundreds of years after the original texts were written.

    * The extant manuscripts contain numerous textual variations! There are literally thousands of differences in the surviving biblical manuscripts, many of them minor (spelling variations, synonyms, different word orders), but some of them major (whole sections missing or added).

    * Important old manuscripts were found in the last 200 years! Recent discoveries of older manuscripts (esp. the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Codex Sinaiticus) have helped scholars get closer to the original text of the Bible, so that modern translations can be more accurate than medieval ones.

    * The meanings of some biblical texts are unknown or uncertain! Some Hebrew or Greek words occur only once in the Bible, but nowhere else in ancient literature, so their exact meanings are unknown; and some biblical phrases are ambiguous, with more than one possible meaning.

    * Ancient languages are very different from modern languages! Not only do Ancient Hebrew and Greek use completely different alphabets and vocabularies, but their grammatical rules and structures (word order, prepositions, conjugations of verbs, etc.) are very different from modern English.

    * Every "translation" is already inevitably an "interpretation"! Anyone who knows more than one modern language realizes that "translations" often have meanings that are slightly different from the original, and that different people inevitably translate the same texts in slightly different ways.

    * All living languages continually change and develop over time! Not only is "Modern English" very different from 16th century English, but the language used in Great Britain, America, Australia, and other countries are slightly different from each other (in spelling, grammar, idioms, word meanings, etc.).

    * Cultural developments require new sensitivities in language! Recent awareness of the evils of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, and other forms of discrimination have shown have certain language is slanted or biased, with corresponding efforts to develop more "inclusive" language alternatives.

    Taken from:
    http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/English_Translations.htm

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    Few other facts to keep in mind:

    There are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world.
    There are hundreds of books in the bible that are missing.


    P.S: Pm me if you need sources for all of this information, I can provide.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2008
  2. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    As an agnostic I don't feel I have any particular dogs in this fight, but please explain what you're referencing here. To put it mildly, this claim seems extremely implausible. Even if you were to toss in every Gnostic text that anyone has ever heard of the total would probably only amount to a few dozen. And most of those texts themselves come from a much later period, meaning it seems reasonable to me that they were in fact excludable. That, and they're downright weird, as with the Apocalypse of Peter or the Gospel of Thomas.

    I suspect that because the author of this site is a Jesuit, he's doubtless attempting to cast doubt on a sola scriptura version of Christianity. That works for me, but I can't see how anyone can say an adherence to Catholicism is any less odd.
     
  3. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    Here's an example of something from the Gospel of Thomas that strikes me as as weird...

    Errm, okay.... :blink:

    Seems to me whichever Council it was that set the Biblical canon in place probably did a good thing by excluding garbage like this, one would think.
     
  4. Terry

    Terry Antiquities Friend Staff Alumni

    For me there is one part of the old testament that I take as sacrosanct:

    "The ten commandments."

    From the new testament the only commandment Christ gave:

    "that you love one another"

    People can argue about the rest to their hearts content (done it myself) but if you live your life by those 11 commandments you can't go far wrong. :smile:
     
  5. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

    http://www.thelostbooks.com/list.htm
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    I drop a pen and it falls on the floor. Why? It could be due to gravity, it could be due to the nature of space/time, it could be because pens happen to like floors, it could be because there's a carpet monster who wants to eat my pens, I don't know. But regardless of that, I still know my pen drops to the floor.

    I agree with Terry here, I think some parts of the Bible express a truth that people can relate to, and you can argue about the details, but that doesn't take away from the truth being expressed. Other bits I think are added by men for their own purposes. So personally I like it when people highlight contradictions, flaws, and predjudices as I think it's a bad thing when people take it too literally or use it to justify their own narrow thinking, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2008
  7. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

  8. zzz

    zzz Well-Known Member

    Food for thought for Christians!

    “And next afterward was given this commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill,' for life is given to all by God, and that which God has given, let not man take away. For-I tell you truly, from one Mother proceeds all that lives upon the earth. Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother. And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away, and will pluck from him her quickening breasts. And he will be shunned by her angels, and Satan will have his dwelling in his body. And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death. For in his blood every drop of their blood turns to poison; in his breath their breath to stink; in his flesh their flesh to boils; in his bones their bones to chalk; in his bowels their bowels t o decay; in his eyes their eyes to scales; in his ears their ears to waxy issue. And their death will become his death. For only in the service of your Heavenly Father are your debts of seven years forgiven in seven clays. But Satan forgives you nothing and you must pay him for all. 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot; burning for burning, wound for wound; life for life, death for death.' For the wages of sin is death. Kill not, neither eat the flesh of your innocent prey, lest you become the slaves of Satan. For that is the path of sufferings, and it leads unto death.”

    Words of jesus from The Essene Gosel Of Peace, book One
     
  9. Epical Taylz

    Epical Taylz Well-Known Member

    although i am not a strong christain
    my boyfriend is
    and i think that the biible is a bunch of bull
    (considering that im going to a catholic highschool
    that probably isnt the best thing to say.) but according
    to the bible, if a man got his penis chopped off
    or his testicles got squashed or something like that, you
    would not be allowed into heaven


    i think that is total bullshit.
    i wish i had the exact quote of that
    but alas, i do not :[
     
  10. zzz

    zzz Well-Known Member

    And Jesus answered:

    “Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead.”

    “In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life.”

    “God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in th e sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God.”

    “Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?”

    The Essene Gosel Of Peace, book One
     
  11. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    Impressive list, though padded by things like the writings of Tertullian and Augustine. Are you saying things like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas should have been considered canonical?
     
  12. ItThing

    ItThing Well-Known Member

    I have a question too and since so many christians are here, I thought I might as well ask on this thread.

    If there were more than one Jesus, would you reffer to them as Jesi?

    Also, religion today is a whole big mess and so many people who try to fix it go too far and mess things up. Debate about this stuff is impossible, personal opinion plays more of a factor here than anything else. There's no original text, no single version of the contemporary text, no consensus about many biblical interpretations, and no way of checking the authenticity or credibility of any of the text, interpretations or opinions provided for you by the religious institutions. Who else thinks this type of thing should be kept totally personal?
     
  13. forseer

    forseer Active Member

    I don't believe in god. But I wish I could because he is the only one who would love me.
     
  14. Anam_Cara

    Anam_Cara Well-Known Member

    Seeing as none of us were alive 2000 years ago none of us truly know what is the word of God and what is the word of man.. we know that yes the bible has been altered, changed, things deleted.. the song of Solomon was altered because the monks that translated it thought it was too "steamy".. the Council of Nicea (MEN) decided which books were to be included in the bible and which were to be left out.. so how do any of us know the TRUTH of what was originally meant to be in the bible.. isnt that a bit like taking a novel, plucking chapters out then trying to read it with the missing bits? MEN translated the bible, we already know that there were errors in translation.. the Red Sea wasnt the Red sea but the Reed Sea (there was a documentary that showed this can't remember the name though)..

    AND i do not trust the Vatican at ALL, there was a recent article on msnbc about the Knight's Templar finally being absolved of the charges against them.. a 600 year old document was released from the Vatican vaults that claimed the Knights Templar were INNOCENT of the charges against them.. The Templar Knights were murdered based on things they did not DO and the Vatican didn't have the courtesy to release the document that absolved them of this.. I myself am furious over this as my family lineage is descended from Templar bloodlines... My ancestors were persecuted and the Vatican KNEW and did nothing for 600 years..

    :mad: I grew up a catholic and am now an ecclectic wiccan and pursue Shamanism... i view religion differently and the bible... all one needs to do is read the Emerald Tablets of Hermes and The Egyptian Book Of The Dead, plus read up on some of the Egyptian religion.. you'd be amazed at how much of the bible was just ecclectic writings that were put into one book and branded as Christianity..

    Something else the vatican doesn't want us knowing was that Jesus studied the egyptian ways while there.

    John 14:2 "in my father's house are many mansions" which has puzzled generations of Christians, is explicitly Osiran and came directly from the Egyptian Book Of The Dead..when Isis went to find her dead husband Osiris she lamented "evil men have killed my beloved and where his body is i know not" compare to mary magdalene speaking of christ "they have taken my lord and i know not where they have lain him".

    On the temple of Isis "I am all that was, that is, and that is yet to come" which much later found its way into the Book of Revelation 1:8 as the words of Yaweh..

    Isis annointed Osiris feet with ointment..it was the ritual of the High Priest and Priestess of Egypt and originated with crocodile fat being applied to the Priest's feet marking him as the "Sacred King"

    The cult of Isis also were the first to baptise..one would confess their sins and be forgiven through immersion in water The influence of the Isis cult can be found openly even in the canonical gospels..for example one of the most famous sayings of Jesus is "come to me all you who are heavy laden and i will refresh you" word for word it was lifted from the sayings of Isis it can be seen inscribed over the door to a temple dedicated to her at Dendera..

    Read also the Emerald Tablet of Hermes and you will see correspondences between the book of Genesis and The Writings of Hermes or Thoth (as he was known in Egypt) In the Emerald Tablets are written such things as a Great Flood that came and a boat being built, Hermes taking his family by boat and landing on a mountain top.. there is the reference to the Children of Light coming down and intermingling with humans.. very much like the Sons of God who came down and had relations with the women.. There are the Keys in the Emerald Tablets and the Keys Of The Kingdom in the bible.. There is also even a principle spoken of " As above so below, as below so above" eerily like "On Earth as It Is In Heaven".. HMMMMMM so many similarities! Jesus speaking the words that Isis spoke, and Isis predated Jesus by 2000 years... As was the Emerald Tablets... i implore everyone to do their studying.. and also to watch a this very insightful video...

    http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


    :blink:hope im not starting a war here just simply stating what i have learned over the course of my studies on ancient texts and reading on these topics..
     
  15. bleach

    bleach Well-Known Member

    The only reason they were investigated in the first place was because the King of France didn't want to pay his war debt to them. :laugh:

    You've gotta love the Crusades. The most epic farce in history.
     
  16. Anam_Cara

    Anam_Cara Well-Known Member

    :blink: thats exactly why... yes... King of France didn't want to pay up so charges were made to destroy the order so he could weasel out of it.. and in the process many innocent knights were murdered.. :mad:
     
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