Bible stuff or how ever you want to read it :)

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Misconduct, Jun 3, 2009.

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  1. Misconduct

    Misconduct Active Member

    So i was thinking about this for a long time now and wanted to find out what other people's take would be on this.

    According to the bible suicide is a sin and so on, but as far as i know i was never given a choice to be here or not?
    What i mean is when a person is created he /she did not have a choice about it you got created and you should be happy about it, i don't want to go to hell because the choice was made for me. If it was all fair like the bible say then there is something wrong with that picture?

    well that is the 1st thing.

    2nd would be why does everything have to default to the negative?
    like if you don't belief in god you go to hell but if you don't belief in the devil you still go to hell?

    why could it not default to the positive? IE if in your life you just lived it and did not belief in anything and in the end there was something then rather go to heaven, why must we go to hell?

    And no to say you need to urn going to heaven is not right because you don't have to earn to go to hell you just don't have to do anything according to the bible.

    BTW this is if you belief in all this but i would like to know what you guys think and please correct my misconceptions :)

    I guess some times it seam most ppl belief in GOD because if you dont you go to hell it is like beeing a kids eat your vegies or else does not seem right?
     
  2. Brighid Moon

    Brighid Moon Member & Antiquities Friend

    It does seem like that. That's because in every culture you are raised and taught certain things by your family, and the culture around you. In America its Xianity. In India it's Hinduism. In the Middle East it's Islam and Judaism. Etc. Etc. (These are all generalizations.) People are raised in fear of their religions, and to not ask questions (of anything!) - thus the beliefs are perpetuated through centuries. Very few people are educated on the varying religions, and in the main most religions (like most governments) get the most out of keeping their followers (or citizens) ignorant.

    No one said the Bible is fair. Even the Bible doesn't say the Bible is fair. According to the Bible, man is the cause of all the pain and suffering in the world. We brought it on ourselves. So of course the world isn't fair.

    The first thing you need to know about the Bible that we all read today is that this is a collection of scrolls and writings, written by theologists and philosophers, which has gone through innumerous hands over centuries (over 2000+ years!) before becoming what we have at this moment. The largest change to the Bible was done ca. 300 CE. by a council put together by a pagan Emperor named Constantine. This was done to bring political peace, as all of the varying Xian/Judaic/pagan religions were warring. This council was called "The Council of Nicea", and was filled with the best religious minds of the time. But there was plenty of arguing before the various books were agreed upon, and many writings were left out. The writings were also reinterpreted, and have continued being since then into the various Xian beliefs.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? What we have isn't the original blueprint. What you're reading is a compendium of what others (who believe they are led by God) believe and want you to believe. This is where matters of Faith (with a capital F!) come in.

     
  3. Aeterna

    Aeterna Account Closed

    The Bible is fair, but not in a human conception. One of the messages behind the Bible is that God created you for a reason, and that what God does is always just. While life may include suffering, that suffering is because of sin, or acting out of accordance with God's plan.

    Because God is very black and white on certain things. You shall not murder is very black and white: Murdering is bad, and there is no acceptable case for ever doing so, while not murdering is always a good thing. God wants a relationship with you because he cares about you, but without a relationship, you are left to the devil because you are distant from God.

    And no to say you need to urn going to heaven is not right because you don't have to earn to go to hell you just don't have to do anything according to the bible.[/quote]

    Well, Hell is not really a place of "fiery brimstone" that you go to. Hell is more like "Oblivion". If you don't believe in God, then you are not granted everlasting life with God's kingdom, and instead you phase out of existence. Only the KJV and a few other translations frequently use the word hell, and the KJV is extremely out of date with modern language.

    The best way to think about hell is like this: Hell is separation from God, Heaven is being near God and having everlasting life. If you developed no relationship with God while you are living, why would you be close to him after death?

    It's more like, "Your bones will easily snap if you don't get enough calcium". A close relationship with God is like drinking a glass of milk, it makes you stronger and has long term rewards.
     
  4. Neverhappyalwayssad

    Neverhappyalwayssad Well-Known Member

    Technically Jesus did suicide-by cop :p. So how does that fit in with Suicide is a sin? If its a sin shouldn't the son of god know not to do it? Or is he immune to any suffering? Kinda seems like an ego-centric messiah. Oh but he is saving "us" from our sins, if so then why is there confessions? Why do you have to seek god's help for the sins you did?
     
  5. Aeterna

    Aeterna Account Closed

    Good questions.

    As far as I know, the Bible teaches that only certain forms of suicide are a sin. For instance, a soldier who throws his body over a grenade to save others has not committed a transgression against God, because he laid his life down for others. In the same way, Jesus would not have committed suicide (in the biblical sense) because he laid his life down for us.

    He is not. Part of Jesus's life was spent suffering to repay for our sins.

    To repent for our sins. Jesus Christ laid his life down so we could be saved from our sins by faith in him.

    Many reasons, least of which is growing as an individual.
     
  6. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    I dont understand this. What about a baby that is shaken and incurs permanent brain damage? What sin did this child commit to experience this?

    Then why did God command murder?


    Unfortunately our dairy is filled with anti biotics that create a whole host of other issues that off set the pluses... (im saying this in jest :lol!: ) But my other questions i am quite serious about and not trying to offend..just trying to understand.

    I'm also confused as to why we need to have a relationship with Jesus? I dont even know as to the validity of his existence... so for me personally i would much rather have a strong relationship with my family and my own being. If i gave a homeless man a blanket out of the kindness of my heart, would this be any different than doing so in the name of Jesus? And if so why? Because it wasnt in the name of Jesus?
     
  7. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    edit oops bad post :(
     
  8. Neverhappyalwayssad

    Neverhappyalwayssad Well-Known Member



    So if people who commit suicide, do it to save their family from a burden of having them around isn't that self sacrifice? (personally, I don't believe in god, and such but I do know a lot about it). So therefore, most people who commit suicide arn't doing it just for themselves they are doing it for other people.
     
  9. Neverhappyalwayssad

    Neverhappyalwayssad Well-Known Member

    Double post for some reason
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2009
  10. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni

    I would suggest the book to you A Course In Miracles.
    It basically says our home is in heaven, and that we do not have to earn it, as you put.
     
  11. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    I still havent gotten around to reading that :p

    But ive always sort of looked it this way..

    The life we have is either heaven, or hell. And its all dependent on how we perceive things and our own actions. What happens afterward your guess is as good as mine.
     
  12. Aeterna

    Aeterna Account Closed

    Truth be told, I'm not really sure. From what I understand, suicide in which you take your own life by your own direct actions are a sin, but suicide in which your life is taken by others, with you willing, is not a sin.

    It's something called "original sin", however, I'm not so sure I subscribe to that theory, so I won't go in to detail about it.

    Instead, I would like to point out the difference between suffering we incur and the suffering others inflict upon us. Attempting to kill or severely harm a child is something the Bible prohibits, and is a result of the other person taking actions that are evil.

    There is an easy cop out which goes like this:

    1. God is the law.
    2. Murder is killing against the law.
    3. Therefore, God can not commit or command murder.

    However, that doesn't get anywhere. Is there a specific incident you have in mind?

    You haven't offended me in the least.

    Your stumbling on to the topic of something called "faith vs. works". I'll get to that in a minute. Relationships with Jesus and God are desired because they bring you closer to God, and will show you God's plan for you. God is the Father, and the Bible states that he wants a close relationship to you. Jesus also wants a close relationship with you, as he took away your sins through his death on the cross.

    Now, whether or not giving a homeless man a blanket matters is a subject of debate, and one of the main divisions between Protestantism and Catholicism. Catholicism (generally) believes that you have to have works along with your faith to go to heaven, while Protestantism generally believes that faith alone will guide you to heaven. Works in the name of Jesus supposedly gain you favor in heaven. However, I subscribe to Protestantism, and I believe that faith alone will get you there.

    So, to put it simply, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, giving a homeless man a blanket would not prevent you from entering heaven in the grand scheme of things. You should still do it, but it won't bar you from hell.
     
  13. Neverhappyalwayssad

    Neverhappyalwayssad Well-Known Member

    I'll give u a few incidents. If you don't mind. Also hope you don't mind me debating this with you.

    "It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

    The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9)."(http://www.evilbible.com/)

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2009
  14. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    [/QUOTE]
    Now, whether or not giving a homeless man a blanket matters is a subject of debate, and one of the main divisions between Protestantism and Catholicism. Catholicism (generally) believes that you have to have works along with your faith to go to heaven, while Protestantism generally believes that faith alone will guide you to heaven. Works in the name of Jesus supposedly gain you favor in heaven. However, I subscribe to Protestantism, and I believe that faith alone will get you there.

    So, to put it simply, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, giving a homeless man a blanket would not prevent you from entering heaven in the grand scheme of things. You should still do it, but it won't bar you from hell.[/QUOTE]

    Um, yes, Catholicism believes that works can help to get you into Heaven, but most Protestants misunderstand why Catholics believe this to be true. The Bible clearly states that "Faith without works is dead". This means that if you claim to have faith, but do not ACT accordingly, then your faith doesn't really exist. You can't say "I believe in Jesus" and then go around killing puppies, because that is pretty much the opposite of anything that a true, faithful Christian would do. Someone who truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God works to imitate Him through kindness, love, charity, etc. Someone who claims to believe in Christ without displaying any of these qualities clearly doesn't have true faith. Thus, your actions DO actually have something to do with it, because they are the outward manifestation of what is really in your heart.
     
  15. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni

    Heh I forgot I might've mentioned that book before. I mention it often because I love it so much.

    But anyway, I think you're right on. It's all about perception.
    We create our own heaven or hell. There's no external forces that set it up and put us there, we make it ourselves. I would guess "afterwards" is quite the same.
     
  16. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    Very enlightening :) Thanks for taking the time to type that all out. My particular example of god commanding murder was already stated by a poster above :)

    I was about to type a frustration of mine about how someone helping another simply on the basis that it grants them access into heaven doesnt seem genuine...dishonest almost. But i guess i came to a conclusion that not everyone agrees with that number one, and that its human nature to do something with the expectation of receiving something in return (even if this means a chemical reaction of increased dopamine production in the brain). So long story short my frustration is irrelevant and can pretty much be applied to any action made my humans.
     
  17. zzz

    zzz Well-Known Member

    If you see a homeless person and out of sadness or guilt you give him your blanket, then you are creating something false in the self that is not you, and that will take you far away from heaven.

    And you have not helped that person. In fact you have increased his karmic burden as he is now in your debt.

    Also, by providing him with the means to remain comfortable for another night, you are only prolonging his misery as he further postpones the inevitable, that of facing up to the situation he finds himself in.

    If however, you see a homeless person and you have an intuitive feeling that he will not make it through the night, and without further thought you give him your blanket, then this action will take you closer to heaven.

    If afterwards there is any thought of having done something good, then this is ego and will take you further away from heaven.

    *
    To perform any action:

    You need the sun, which is provided for you
    You need air, which is provided for you
    You need water, which is provided for you
    You need food, which is provided for you
    You need material facilities, which are provided for you
    You need a physical body, which is provided for you
    You need knowledge, which is provided for you
    You need other actors, which are there for you
     
  18. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    Well first of all i dont see how he would be in debt to me...he didnt steal it from me i offered it and he accepted it. If at any point i expected to be "rewarded" for such an act than that would be naive on my part and maybe even selfish. Karma? I dont know if i believe in karma..but if this persuades him to "share" the kindness hes been given by sort of "paying it forward" (good movie) then i fail to see how this puts anyone further from heaven. I guess by that logic "spreading the word of god" to help someone find the path to heaven would be doing the same. Are you not spreading the word of god for your own personal benefit to "stay on the path towards heaven"? Could this act be driven by Ego?

    Prolonging his misery? I guess there is some form of enabling such behavior but one can not be responsible for another's actions; period. If the homeless man accepts the blanket he is himself enabling his behavior...he has the option to not accept the blanket or even give it to someone worse off than himself. But you are also assuming he is grasping for the motivation to not be homeless and a kind gesture pushes it further from him. :rolleyes:

    Intuition is not always correct and can be argued. Intuition is usually gained sub consciously and through subtle details. If he looks homeless and emaciated and tired and forlorn and its very cold out well..intuition may tell you he wont make it another night. Will a blanket change this? Maybe. Is he truly unprepared for the night? Only he knows and only the night will tell.

    If walking the path towards heaven is ego loss than may we all be sent to hell lest we partake in a strong dose of LSD or a nice trip out of the earths atmosphere (and i mean that literally). Nearly every act we make is about ego and when it is not the act after is. I find life needs balance and this includes the Id and the Ego. I have not met a single person who is without one and the other in some form.

    It seems you're laying rules down to be on the road to heaven when human nature would find us deviating from that very path quite often and as such we are no more a sinner than the person next to us, no more on the right path than the person next to us, so believing or not shouldnt matter. It just seems you're arguing the path to heaven and that path i can only realistically see being followed after im dead and have no Id or Ego to battle with...

    I guess my conclusion is...
    Why is doing good for the sake of doing good not good enough? Is it not better than doing bad? Because when we break it down thats the two choices. Good or Bad regardless of philisophical values.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2009
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    Life, death, heaven, hell? We have no choice anyway...

    "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die" - Ecclesiastes 3

    We simply need to know what God has in store for us :smile:
     
  20. zzz

    zzz Well-Known Member

    Hi MeAndYou

    With powerful intuition one might pick up a blanket without thinking, because deep down beyond the level of conscious thought, the self knows that later that night he or she will be giving that blanket to a person in need.

    *

    You asked: Is doing something good for the sake of doing something good, not enough?

    No.

    Ego consciousness is faulty consciousness and every action you perform, good or bad, is leaving an impression (memory) on the self. These impressions are an addition to the self and they continually feed the mind, clouding who we really are and keeping us firmly rooted in the past. A habitual nature is developed based on these past impressions and we end up almost completely at the mercy of our own negativity.

    Think of it like an actor on a stage. Nothing gives him any trouble; he’s just playing his part. No impressions are absorbed. His mind is free.

    But with us, every little thing gives us trouble.

    *

    Hi Ziggy

    You have complete control and choice about the way you think and feel at every moment. If somebody defames you, then you can choose to respond in a vicious way towards him or her or you can choose to have merciful vision for him or her, based on the understanding that beneath the act, they are suffering.

    Is the time and date you are to leave that physical body fixed? Yes.

    Then are my current choices having any effect? Yes.
     
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