Born in the USA not enough?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Mikeintx, Jun 16, 2010.

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  1. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/EJMontini/85252


    It is unconstitutional, but I understand AZer's frustrationg with illegal immigration. Here in Dallas we have the second busiest maternity ward in the nation and over 70% of the babies delivered there are anchor babies. Something needs to be done.
     
  2. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Arizona should just make a move to have this removed from the Statue of Liberty.

     
  3. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    Considering you are in Canada, I really don't think you can comprehend the amount of illegal mexicans that come into this country in the south. It is a serious problem and only keeps additional legal immigrants from being able to enter. A huge amount of resources are used on people that should not be here in the first place. Our country has sky rocketing unemployment, state governments that are running out of money, and the illegal immigration problem is only increasing the burdens on the economy. While I do not agree with this specific law, serious change needs to happen in regards to immigration law.
     
  4. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    The illegal immigrants themselves are only part of the problem. The fact is, Americans are the ones demanding their labor even as they turn against them. Most illegals do indeed work, contribute considerably to the economy, and in many cases even pay taxes. A significant percentage of domestic services, meat-packing, agricultural work, and construction are done by illegals. It's no coincidence that the regions of the US that were booming before the recession were those that had a lot of (cheap) illegal immigrant labor. And we're still depending on them, albeit less so.

    Most illegals are just people desperate to support their families, since job growth in Mexico isn't happening fast enough to sustain them. They're coming here because they know there are jobs we won't touch, and plenty of employers willing to hire them. It's a simple issue of supply and demand. If we did a better job of regulating these industries, pushing for more humane wages and labor laws, and cracking down on those unethical businesses, illegals wouldn't come in such numbers and it'd be Americans working these jobs instead (and even then, we have such a strong disdain for menial work that even higher pay may not be enough).

    To that end, I agree that we need to certainly engage in serious immigration reform. I understand the concerns and motives of those behind this law (especially given their proximity to the problem, and to an increasingly violent Mexico), but it's not the right way to go about it. Reform would have to be on the federal level, given the flagrant unconstitutionality of Arizona's approach. Like it or not, some form of amnesty *will* have to be granted to those illegals already here. The fact is, we have far too many to track down and deport, and the money and labor just isn't there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2010
  5. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    Yes Zurk, the employers themselves need to be punished for hiring illegals. Regarding the menial work... well there are a ton of jobs that I see illegals doing here in texas that I wouldnt mind doing and I am sure a lot of the unemployed legal immgrants also wouldn't mind doing. I understand there are SOME bad jobs out there that are not favorable, but there are a lot that are.

    Also illegals wanting to support their families is not as big of the issue as much as the disdain many mexicans have for our laws. It is common to hear about a hit and run and when the car is discovered the driver has jumped the border and is never heard from again. It is also common to hear mexicans brag about how they are taking over the US and how they will reclaim the southern US for Mexico. I know right now I must sound like a crazy racist, and back when I lived in NH I would have never even have begun to have thought like this, but after living down here and seeing and hearing about it first hand definitely changes things.

    There are a lot of hard working immigrants here that I am proud to have living in the US, but unfortunately there is a lot of shit too. We need to innact some strict laws on employers to start enforcing legal status before hiring.
     
  6. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Considering I'm in the world's most multi-cultral city in which there are entire neighbourhoods of first and second generation immigrants every 4 blocks, I think I have some right to speak.

    Also I think you have a queer idea of what the illegal immigrants do when they get there. What they do is work all sorts of jobs, including keeping the agriculture of the USA afloat. If all your illegals went on an exodus your economy would go tits up.
     
  7. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    Yes MULTI-cultral... not one overwhelming culture that uses a ton of your resources and does not repay them. How many of those first and second generation immigrants came there legally? And yes I know our dependency on illegal workers, it does not mean we should not be cracking down on it.
     
  8. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    I understand what your saying Mike, and I don't deny that many illegals do indeed flaunt our laws and disregard our culture, often while brazenly declaring that they'll take over (I hear a lot of that where I live as well). I also know that people have a tendency to over-romanticize all illegal immigrants, where as there are those among them that include gang members, drug dealers, and the like.

    But you'll always find a minority of ignorant and criminal people within every community. Considering that most of them are concentrated in what used to be their country, prior to us starting a war to take it, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that sentiment either. I think most of them like to keep a low profile and just do what they can to get by and support their families back home.

    The issue with jobs is complex. It's true that not all illegals work the nastiest jobs. The problem is that they're always desperate enough to work any job more cheaply, even if it would normally pay better. So even jobs you and I would do will end up going to them at less cost to the employer.

    To be honest, I've never been in that area of the US, so perhaps I simply don't understand the gravity of the situation. My friends from there all tell me something different, but some have echoed your same concerns. Where I live, Miami, immigrants (legal or not) integrate relatively well. Hispanic culture is the dominate culture, yet it's reached such an equilibrium that there isn't as much concern about it and the next generation is pretty "American."
     
  9. OutCaste

    OutCaste Well-Known Member

    I'm a legal immigrant (came on a student visa and working now) in United States and I've mixed feelings about the whole issue.

    On one hand I feel hypocritical about criticizing those who are trying to chase the American Dream just like me but I also feel frustration because I've been through HELL to get to where I'm right now. I'm only eligible to work in fields that have relevance to my major. My visa status becomes illegal the day I lose my job so its a constant threat. It's going to take another 6 years (minimum) to get a green card. Taking the legal route is not that easy. Most employers had no interest in hiring me because of legal hassles that are involved in visa sponsorship. I think America should re-assess the legal immigration process. The anchor baby rule is ridiculous, the baby becomes a citizen but the parents aren't but there are people who wait 12-13 years in the queue and go back to their home countries disappointed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2010
  10. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    I can understand that. Ive known a few people that should have definitely been allowed to have citzenship that ended up having to go back to their respective countries. It sucks and needs to be changed.
     
  11. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Toronto has social assistance programs to help new immirants coming out the ass. Does it cost a lot? Yes. Do they pay it back? Yes. How so? Because we gave them citizenship. As dandy as it is for them, being known to the system as a citizen makes them targates for taxation; taxation they pay. They get to be all happy and assissted and employed and we pull a profit. Everybody wins.

    As for the 'one overwhelming' culture, so what? Societies change, it's how things work.
     
  12. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    I don't really know what to say besides the fact that the US is built by/of people from other countries; the only true Americans are the Native Americans that were here before everyone else. I personally am not so bothered by it, I think as long as the person isn't a criminal and is willing to learn enough English to get by it's OK. I live in Dodge City, KS. There are a lot of Hispanic people here, and I also personally are tired of hearing white people make cruel racial slurs at people they don't even know. (Oh, by the way, in case you're wondering, I was born and raised here and I'm of European descent, this was nothing personal. It's just how I feel)
     
  13. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    You bring up an excellent point and perspective. I've read time and time again about how archaic and convoluted our immigration system is. The fact is, immigration is probably America's greatest strength, bringing us ideas, scientists, professionals, labor, culture, and trade links with other countries. Stifling that will only hurt us in the long run. Our attraction as a place of destination for the world has always been an underlying part of this country.

    Lovecraft brings an interesting perspective as well. Canada is a country that is very different from the US with respect to immigration and multiculturalism The latter is enshrined in the Canadian constitution, and many Canadians - even conservative ones - hold it to be a given. It's also the largest recipient of immigrants per capita, and is increasingly being viewed as a dynamic alternative to the US (as it's economy has fared better and it's immigration system is more welcoming).

    I'm not saying that we Americans are as opposed to multiculturalism or anything, as cities from LA to Houston to NYC attest. But culturally speaking there is more emphasis on assimilation and a more utilitarian view of immigrants.
     
  14. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    I dunno what to think... There is the point, of course, that it's illegal. On the other hand, what they're actually doing seems good, and very much in the American spirit - they're going to the land of opportunity to work so that their families will have better lives.
     
  15. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

  16. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    This comes straight of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

    It is also interesting to note that the population of Canada would be on the decrease if not for immigration, more so within Toronto which is one of the bigger immigration centres for Canada. My family on both lines has been here since pre 1800 given that trend, and my father's line came from England. Even so I don't see all the immigrants that come from every which-a-way with their foods, language and clothes as marginalizing the Canadian culture. Canada has a nice bubble of safe, arable land and a lot more of it. If Canada maintains a < 2.1 birthrate and keeps pulling in immigrants we're getting people out of less safe and less fertile lands rather than claiming it all to be ours and our seeds'.

    The way I see it people already in a well developed country should be discouraged from having more than 1 kid by birth and really discouraged from having > 2 kids by birth. There are tons of people begging to get in and the human race as a whole has a few too many people as it is. Adopt one of the kids literally dying in the streets.
     
  17. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    That's a very interesting perspective, and one I certainly agree with. When immigration is viewed as part of a much bigger picture - a world brimming with poor, desperate people and a more prosperous part that needs all the people it can get - it makes a lot of sense. From what I've read, immigration is the only reason Canada (and the US) is even growing as quickly as it is - as opposed to many other developed countries, whose populations are stagnant or shrinking.

    And as these societies age, more labor will be required to fill in the jobs left behind by retirees, as well as to care for them. In this sense, immigration is a win-win, even if people don't want to accept it.
     
  18. kyle88

    kyle88 Well-Known Member

    As a Canadian, I actually agree with that law...

    The only reason illegal immigrants bother going to America or any other country (illegally) in the first place is because there is an INCENTIVE... in order to stop illegal immigrants you need to stop giving them incentives to enter a country.
     
  19. Sparky55313

    Sparky55313 Well-Known Member

    Seasonal immagration used to work wonders for this country. Now its matter of gangs using the system to sell their drugs. Last year alone over 300 innocents died during street shootings along our southern borders. All in attempts to evade law enforcement and street fights to "protect" "Their" territory? This is America. Not Mexico.
    America has been very tolerant and even invited Mexicans into this country back in the 80's to work at a great number of jobs we could not even deal with our population.
    They were given citizenship.
    Now its the gangs and the drugs we contend with. They sneak across the border with illegals & drugs. Those that are caught are given medical attention and those that are not caught spread violence & drugs.
    This is just starting. Soon they will be invading the Canadian border.
     
  20. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Criminals have nothing to do with it. There is no debate whether they should be deported. No one is proposing they should be given citizenship. They're a tiny fraction of the people crossing the border.

    That was addressed already and should not be addressed in this thread: http://www.suicideforum.com/showthread.php?t=82597
     
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