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  1. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    All things come down to choice.

    It is easy to say "I had no choice" when faced with two very big options, it is a lie, there is always choice.

    I know this will stir up anger and some will say that choice is not always an option, but it is.
    Slavery was a choice, not just in my country, but every country and it was a choice made by the slaves.
    They allowed themselves to become slaves.
    The Romans believed you chose to be a slave, you could either die a free man or live a slave, it is always choice.

    Pregnancy is a choice, I do not mean abortion, though that is a choice, I mean young teens and even adults who choose to get pregnant when it is quite easy to purchase contraception, I know hospitals sometimes have free condoms and spermicides.
    So why is there such rampant teen pregnancy? Because people chose not to use protection.
    People choose not to get a college education, if it is a money issue and you want it, get a loan, if it is an intelligence issue, get a school appointed tutor or seek help.
    Choice is always the deciding factor.
    Just as you choose to ignore choice as the true force of all things in human existence. Not the universe, just us, humans.
  2. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    We tend to weigh the possible outcomes and consequences of actions before taking them. Even though the choice is open, its outcome may be less than favorable. Even though the slave has a choice to escape, he knows that if there is a 95% chance he will be caught and killed on sight, it's a better choice to stay alive, even if it is in slavery.

    Sure there is free will (though doubtfully), but the human mind is very analytical and adept at remembering whether the will produces a favorable or unfavorable outcome for its own survival. And remember a human being will more than likely always choose the route that benefits a biological need to survive.
  3. topper

    topper Well-Known Member

  4. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Then why were there slave revolts? Would not have been in the slaves best interest to remain quiet and subservient so that they might live another day?
    They also chose to fight back, only after becoming slaves, it is human to go against human nature.
  5. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Yes, slave revolts in numbers did occur, and some individuals did try to take on their oppressors and escaped, but this was rare, and those who failed earned severe injury or death. However, most slaves didn't participate in these revolts, and most were not freed until their owners permitted them to leave, or until slavery's abolition.

    People are still making choices, regardless of whether they're perceived as right or wrong, they're still choices. You choose to live as opposed to dying, others choose to die as oppose to living; they're both still choices. And slave revolts were still driven by an innate need to survive for those who participated in them. I'm not disagreeing with you that people make choices. I'm simply saying that, with regard to the slave choosing to be in slavery, saying they chose to put themselves into a circumstance in which individuals are made to choose between a brutal and violent death or a chance at surviving another day in the first place, is a naive and unwise conclusion.

    If you're talking about placing blame on people for choices they make, why aren't we placing blame on the enslaver for enslaving those that are in such a poor position that they are pitted with the choice of life and death in the first place? No one should be put in that kind of position to have to choose between life and death. I'd put pressure on the slave owners and oppressor instead for choosing to treat other human beings with such recklessness and degradation. How about we slam on THAT choice?
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2011
  6. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    You misunderstand, I am not blaming anyone for the choices they made.
    You can claim it is human nature to choose the most viable option more survival, but is there truly such a thing as human nature?
    Are we as predictable as the rest of the animal kingdom?

    Choice is neither good nor bad.
    For there is no good or bad.
  7. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Have you ever watched ants in an ant colony?
  8. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    A chemical signal let out by the "queen" tells the ants what they must do.
    Their jobs include digging, mating, gathering food and if they die, becoming food.
    Yes, I have watched them.

    Have you ever watched a human being slowly go insane from the outside?
    Can you truly define choice as a survival instinct when there are so many who choose positions that put their lives at risk so often?

    Choice, to take life, to have life, to die.
  9. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Yes. We aren't much different from other animals and insects. We just have larger brain capacity for memorizing and applying knowledge and information. I believe everything an individual does revolves around its prime instinctive needs.

    Being in a risky life-threatening situation by choice, yeah that's dangerous and risky. But that's how people in those positions chose to create their livelihood, it provides them or others with resources for living, allows other humans beings to continue surviving by saving lives, and if they have to they'll sacrifice themselves so that another human being can survive. Some die so that others may live. I think it is part of the biological mechanism to survive and continue the species, even if one has to put himself at risk to do that. I don't believe there's any kind of higher spiritual connection that humans have at all. We're just smarter animals is all, or dumber depending on personal perspective.
  10. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    And from a biological point of view, we don't really have the power of choice to exercise in the first place. Everything we do is dictated by our instincts. Ultimately, we're slaves to our prime needs, which really puts in question whether we actually have the true ability of choice or free will at all.
  11. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Then why do we have the internet? :)
    Why sky dive or bungee jump? Are those needed for survival?
    Why go to war? Is that needed for survival?

    Why do we create art and music, neither of those are needed for our survival and yet have been a fundamental part of every human society, either in a small or large way, in fact human progression in science has always been equivalent to its progression in the arts.
    If humans are just the instinct driven, filthy bags of puss like the hairy beasts they look after then why have recreation?
    Humans have a special part in them, quite literally something that no animal has, a special part of the mind, could it be this part that separates them from all other organisms?
  12. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    The internet was created initially for purpose of access to international information and databases used in the military. To use to aid in defending countries, made up of lives of human beings and the resources on which they depend.

    The drive for acquiring more knowledge or information is fed by the instinct to survive because knowledge is power, it enables individuals to be able to improve the quality of their lives in many ways through access to resources (acquiring a social connection to improve chances of survival by affection [we are a social species that heavily depends on one another to survive], or mating, etc.).

    Extreme sports are part of enhancing the experience of living, improving quality of life for those who do it, and it aids in their ability to survive at the standard of quality that satisfies them.

    Yes, war is necessary because it's one of the ways humans have to protect or procure their resources and livelihoods that aid and facilitate their survival.

    We create art and music the same way we create words and means to travel and communicate. It's not a matter of spiritual connection, it's a matter of applying information the way our brains collected it, and expressing it. Creativity is not a rare asset of humans. Our brain's ability to apply our intelligence and knowledge this way enables us to have better standards of living; it's how we are able to build our homes (through the creative thought processes), how we're able to concoct cooking recipes, or hunt an animal, or devise tactics to fight in battle and war, or devise ways to enhance our reproductive urges.

    The only thing even slightly "special" about humans is that we're upright, smarter, and have self-awareness that we are not yet aware other species in the animal kingdom have. Self-awareness being that we're able to understand death and sit here and discuss the status of our own existence. Even that ability is not especially indicative of any spiritual superior connection. I believe it's also linked with our instincts because it's part of the creative thinking process, as well as a coping mechanism that can encourage us to improve our species' livelihoods.
  13. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Basically, we live to eat, waste, sleep, reproduce, all of which are for aiding survival, and then decompose when our flesh and all the former processes have exhausted their lifespan and can no longer function.
  14. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    :) I find it humorous that you continuously assert that their is no "deeper spiritual connection" when I have not used those words at all, so quick to say that there isn't a god, what drives that mind of yours to deny such a thing?

    HAR-5 a special chemical, found only in human brains, not in any other mammal, not in any other species, it is what allows humans to be humans.

    There is much to understand, such as; what exists outside of our universe?
    If one believes in the 'big bang' theory( which is a terrible name, there was no sound, so how could there be a bang? and the universe was the size of an atom, so how could it be big?), then the question arises, if the universe has size, is there something outside of it? A void, other universes?
    This raises further questions, are all things quantifiable or are the mathematics that humans so heavily rely on only feasible within this universe or even within this solar system?

    Humans chose to go to the moon, why? Humans do not need another planet, what they need for survival is to create a stable equilibrium with their natural environment, then why do humans go against what many animals do so naturally?
  15. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    What I believe is that this is a fundamental disagreement. You believe in choice as something self-existing; I don't. I believe we create the concept of choice and will, and that we're bound by the laws of physics. I haven't alluded to any religious deities, but you have alluded to having a belief that humans are spiritually enlightened somehow, which makes us special or on a higher spiritual level than animals. I believe that those behaviors are simply a result of brain chemistry, signals, responses to stimuli, applied memory, all to facilitate the exact same basic primal urges of animals.

    What you are talking about is not choice at all, imo. It's an ability to be curious, which is just another thought process that we've evolved to using because it assists in our ability to learn more information and knowledge to prolong our species' survival and access to resources.
  16. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Humans are seen as special because we have greater information capacity that other animals cannot duplicate on the same level; humans view this as something that nothing else has, and thus makes them special. Well, bees also are special because they have the ability to pollinate, and nothing else can do it the way they can either. Every species has their own function that makes them unique from the others.
  17. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Do they? Are you saying you know every species, including any that exist on other worlds? :)
    I never claimed any spiritual enlightenment, in fact, you used the word spirit before I did.
    I referred multiple times to humans higher brain function and special chemicals, only found in humans.

    Laws of physics? Can we presume they are laws when they are subject to change?
    Gravity was thought to be a law but yet what was previously thought of it has hence changed, does this change gravity, the law or simply the human view?
    Are you quite certain that all things are defined by physics and nature and nothing can happen outside of the predictable?
    If humans are special as you say, then why do they act unlike any other animal? They grow and make homes too large for true survival, more for the individual, fueling human greed, they devour more than needed, they cause destruction of untold billions of organisms and even go so far as to destroy each other and kill their own planet.
    Only a virus acts in this manner, eating, consuming what is in it's path and then moving on.
  18. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    As far as I know, everything still adheres to the laws of physics. The thing that changes is our understanding of it, and we don't know much to say we know it all. This is not something I have claimed because it's not my belief that we know everything.

    Greed is just another characteristic of us using basic instincts. Humans believe that the more resources they have, the better off they'll be able to survive. So we acquire things and even more things thinking that the more we have, the higher our chances are of living longer with a better quality of life that will also enable our offspring to live longer and better lives. We gather, what I would consider to be, nests. Sort of the way gatherers and hunters behave. There's a reason.

    Every living thing must consume something to live. And when resources become low, the need is still there, so we seek other resources in other places. This is why humans are essentially nomadic and move and expand to where the resources are, so they can live.
  19. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Nomadic, then why have humans taken on sedentary life styles? Life styles that remain even when resources run low

    Humans do not simply move from one spot to the next, they move, repopulate and continue to move, just like a virus.
    They create more of themselves, to spread through the world, choking it of every resource, then they seek the next viable resource, rocket fuel, the planets surrounding earth are rich with hydrogen and helium, very useful rocket fuel as it creates no pollutants and is far more efficient than fossil fuels.
  20. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Because we applied our creativity to build motor vehicles, computers, and technology that removes the need for physical rigor, and it has become normal. When resources run low, (essentials such as food and shelter) we will kill to acquire them as those instincts kick in and make us move an ass.

    Yes, humans move from one spot to the next. This is why we have expanded worldwide over the course of our existence. We didn't go walking across the Bering Strait just for the heck of it. Europeans didn't cross the Atlantic for fun. We were escaping in search of a better nest in which to live and build civilizations. People didn't migrate for no reason; they were in search of other places to find resources and live, another example of curiosity being a key element in our advancement.

    I believe we're very much like the way you described a virus. Anyone observing our behavior over the past ten thousand years will see that. Animals also migrate. Do they share a curiosity, or is it actually instincts leading them? I do believe the curiosity is natural and a key element that facilitates the instincts and primal, basic biological needs.
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