Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Petal, Sep 4, 2009.
I found this interesting click
How on earth can the author that piece make grandiose claims like this? (Specifically, what is in bold.)
What on earth is he or she basing this on?
I found this irritating in the sense that the conclusion does not follow from the premise. First, there's a wide range of factors involved, as this site notes:
So, the correlation -- not causation -- appears to be rather muddied by biological and other factors.
Second, note what is claimed: that you will cause others to commit suicide, not that they might join a group that has a higher rate: or 10/100,000 vs. 30/100,000, if we take the "three times figure" and the 10/100,000 rate amongst adolescents in the US to use one example. An increase in risk factors of 0.0002. Hardly the causation the author didn't just imply, but flat out stated.
I could expand my criticism, but I think that's enough. Barring some sort of fact based rebuttal, I'm going to put this one down as the sort of pro-life propaganda I've been reading for about 25 years, and particularly clumsy example of that.
LOL, sorry, I saw the phrase "pro life propaganda" and laughed a little. Yeah, because life itself is some kind of propaganda campaign to keep people from dying.
As a bunch of suicidals, our outlook on life is more skewed than anyones.
Lol, alright can we please shut down the soap box now? Or at least make it so I cant view or respond to it anymore? Thanks.
I understand the cynical responses given the perspectives from which they emerge, but one can't deny that the intentions are at least good. There are credible argument living as there are for dying.
But given that I'm not suicidal, perhaps I've missed the point.
I disagree that the intentions here are good, unless telling what are for a great many lies is somehow a good thing.
Indeed there are, but this piece is not one of them.
Do either of the statements I made bold strike you as reasonable? Or that piling of logical fallacy on top of factual error I also quoted? I don't think you need to be suicidal to have serious problems with both, personally. Just able to read English.
Yeah, that was a bit over the top on my part. :rofl:
Possible, I suppose. But the problem is a bit chicken and egg. As in what seems to me the widely held sentiment that only someone mentally ill would attempt or commit suicide and the only people who commit suicide are those who are mentally ill.
What a load of garbage. Pro-life propaganda indeed... many times do I wonder what the thought processes of people like these are. They must be gravely confused... maybe even mentally ill? :smile: Perplexing.
I admit those statements are foolish and the whole thing feels a bit off, but I just don't personally see it as being all that bad. Perhaps to you it is offensive or flat out wrong, but to someone outside the mindset of ending their lives it's merely a phase or delusion.
I suppose all this underlines the lack of empathy between both sides, which explains why the suicidal ultimately remain unaffected by the efforts of the pro-life camp that rarely shares in their views.
Zurkhardo, you don't think giving false hope to vulnerable people is wrong?
How is this site bad? This is a common tactic used by suicide support lines to try to reason with people who are on the edge of killing themselves. Trying to inject some logic into their thinking, trying to say anything to get the person to stay alive to continue trying to get help. The fact it was ended with:
"Once again, I am sorry if reading this material is distressing to you, as I know you are already distressed to be contemplating suicide. However, ending your suffering by suicide may well cause dramatically more suffering to a range of people who are close to you.
Please believe the reality that there are lots of friends and professionals who would immediately help you if they knew you wanted help, and there are also medications to stop emotional pain."
seems to me that the intentions of the site are good.
An intention can be as good as it gets. Doesn't mean it's good for the one exposed to it.
Let's say a person is beyond depressed and is forced into a psych ward. In the ward, the person is asked to take some substance that the doctors claim will make him/her feel better. He/she refuses to. They, in a kind manner, try to convince the person to take the medication/"medication". He/she keeps refusing. So the ward people, in the most gentle way they can, strap the person up, pull off his/her pants, and insert the medication into the anus, while gently, in a calming manner, telling the person that it only is for their own best.
Their intentions may have been good, and they may have done it in the, in their eyes, "kindest" and most "gentle" way possible, but maybe without even realizing it, they have raped this individual. If something like this happened to me, I would have no choice but to kill myself as quickly as possible. All because of their good intentions.
Indeed, someone suicidal doesn't get raped by reading this, but the way it is written belittles and tramples on someone who already is in a bad state, all in the name of getting through their way of thinking. It's disgusting, really. I wish I could spit on the author of this.
...Not to mention that not all can be happy or even okay, again. It's just impossible for many. Those who claim otherwise are either lying or are so deluded that they honestly need another kind of help.
Whose to say it's false hope? There are plenty of once suicidal people that validate those statements, finding their pain over and their lives good thereafter. It's really just a matter of perspective, but just because you can't see it as true doesn't mean it isn't.
But that's just my opinion.
I don't see much that is not well-intended! Whether anyone thinks "well-intended" is enough or not or wants to pick away at certain aspects of it that's fine too.
But, the specifics about what happens after a suicide to the family and the check list are all what I've had to deal with in helping my best friends mother (I ecently posted about the suicide of my best friend).
I don't think anything said here is going to send someone over the edge. SF is basically doing something similar. Aren't we for the most part trying to save lives by relating our own experience and telling others to hang on and talk to us and that "things will bet better"?
Yes there are a few on this site that take the "tough love" approach and a few that just say "Fuck everyone, you don't know my pain", etc...
Some of what is said in the article is factual, some speculative, but I have no problem with it.
You know what they say about the road to hell.
Its paved with gumdrops and sourpatch kids? mmmmm sour patch kids :tongue:
And there are suicidal people who have lived on never to find the good times come rolling in...
This article assumes everyone has close friends and family. What if you have neither?
Indeed, there are undoubtedly people that don't never have the good times come, or don't have friends or family. But there is no one blanket method for appealing to and helping all suicidal people. Every case is different and you have to be pragmatic:simply do the best you can to help who you can.
This might not help you guys, but whose to say it's utterly useless drivel that can't or won't help others who it can apply to?
Romney, buddy, you need to jump down off that fence! Remember what Kierkegaard said about existence: you need to make strong decisions, be passionate, get stuck in, take the plunge into the deep dark ocean!