Defending veganism.

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Darken, Nov 9, 2007.

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  1. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    I come under ridicule a lot because I am openly vegan. Though I believe this lifestyle choice is reasonable and the morally right thing to do. Eating meat is natural for some species including humans mmkay I never believed it wasn't.

    The reasons I don't eat meat or buy dairy products or other animal products are; It supports animal torture and cruelty, if you think animal torture and cruelty are okay there is some thing seriously wrong with you. How would you feel if another creature did what we do to them to us, if they could. Locked in extremely tiny cages walking in your own piss and feces, beaten and mistreated often. Then one day they cut your throat and wait till you bleed to death. Or even cook you alive like they do to chickens in some factories. Skin you alive. They do this to the adults and children and babies.

    I often hear that me not eating meat or dairy products will not make a difference. I do not believe that is true. Even if each vegan or vegetarian only makes a tiny contribution the more and more of us their are the more likely we will achieve our goals. And a moral person will do what they believe is right no matter what. Like an analogy, if slavery was widely accepted I would be opposing it and trying to end it, no matter how how little difference I made. Because I would believe it was the right thing to do.

    Animals have emotions and can feel pain just like us, please don't post any of that they are lower than us so we can do what ever we like to them etc bullshit. At what intelligence point does a sentient being have rights? The products we try to avoid and are against are the ones that have unethical treatment to animals and cause animal suffering, not all of them are immoral of course.
     
  2. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    Why is it immoral to consume dairy products?
     
  3. Trip the Dark fantastic

    Trip the Dark fantastic Well-Known Member

    Well spoken Darken for the cause of Veganism. The reasons are so obvious in favour of being a Vegan or vegetarian that, even after being a vegetarian for most of my life it still puzzles me why people cant see the obvious.

    Being a veggie means physiologically, I have a longer life expectancy, ethnically, I don't support the killing and consumption of anything that has a face on it, psychologically, I don't corrupt my mind with the thought of consuming something decaying as meat and nutritionally, I have a much better chance of escaping the obesity trap waiting for me.

    Just a few reasons. Regarding veganism, I find myself flirting with it on and off....
    but everytime I buy myself shoes, or smear myself a delicious slice of honeyed bread I have to leave my moral high ground and have to defend a contradiction.... And I'm not even talking about wool....Had I still a grandma, I probably would have managed only once to reject her woolen handmade jumper she made me for X-mas...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    And so I'm a happy Lacto vegetarian - no eggs but milk and honey...

    Three quotes:
    Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the victims he intends to eat until he eats them. ~Samuel Butler

    We don't need to eat anyone who would run, swim, or fly away if he could. ~James Cromwell

    Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends. ~George Bernard Shaw

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  4. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    Least Harm Principle
    this is a tongue and cheek post, I just don't agree with your assertion that your morals rule all on this issue.
     
  5. Trip the Dark fantastic

    Trip the Dark fantastic Well-Known Member

    Regan's analysis is IMHO deeply fraught with inaccurracies. A discussion paper (published by Steve Davies) makes a case why that is so. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:V8kAZ-O_y00J:homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf+&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk

    I agree with you that moral principles are not the only measurement pro/contra vegetarianism/veganism. However, they are ultimately the most influential ones, as they are dealing with conscious decisions of killing a living/breathing organism for the purpose of consuming its flesh... The problem with that, is not only that killing an animal for its nutritious values has no justification any longer in our (western) civilization, but it also sets you up to morally corrupt next generations . I am deeply concerned when I hear from yet another child, who thinks chickens are born frozen in a supermarket...

    Summarising, you make a fair point in that morals are not the only yardstick in the vegetarianism debate, but moral values are its foundations. Making a conscious decision of killing a living organism for the sole purpose of eating it afterwards, does corrupt and erodes your set of moral values. Simply accepting the suffering, slaughtering and eating of an animal has been normalised to an alarming degree and -for me- being a veggie is therefore foremost a ethical/moral decision based on the notion, that the unnecessary killing of animals is inherently wrong, as is inflicting pain or harm on other living creatures.
    .
     
  6. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    I personally live in an area where if deer were not hunted and killed, they would literally over-run our city streets. So in this instance, hunting is necessary, and I see nothing wrong with consuming that meat. That being said, I also don't see much wrong with eating meat in general, especially since the main source of vegan protein, soy, can cause horrible thyroid diseases and other health problems because of under-processing in the US. I think that animals should be treated humanely before they are killed for meat, and I make a point of buying eggs and poultry that are cage-free and organic, but I'm not going to completely alter my lifestyle for an animal with a brain the size of a pea. I know this sounds selfish and awful, but there you have it.
     
  7. Fishman

    Fishman Guest

    Well said Anastasia, I don't see what the problem is so long as the standard for treating livestock is reasonable. Your missing out on a hell of a lot of good food such as, Ice cream for one. Besides when they rip the fruit out of the ground or off the tree I dare say they are in theory "hurting it" and a tree is a living thing too so....
     
  8. Blackness

    Blackness Guest

    Darken, man has been eating meat and animal products for hundreds of years. Are you dumb. How you do think he have acheived so much. The human race would be dead if everyone thought like you. Do you think we would have survived off the little plant leaves? and berries?
    hahaha. I'm sure they didnt have stupid soy products and vitamin supplements back in the 'hunter-gathering' era! Yeah i see you may think it's cruel blah blah blah, but human life is cruel. Take a look at what we're doing to the planet! You just using this computer to type on here are wasting valuable energy. Bet you drive a car too? use lights? YOU"RE killing the environment. You should go live out in the middle of no where with your liitle animals and live off berries. Oh wait you probably think it's cruel to pick and eat plant products right? I mean im sure plants have feelings too!
     
  9. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    I don't won't to seem like I am attacking anyone for their dietary choice. Vegans and vegatarians, furgivors and people who only eat nonprocessed or noncooked food can do whatever they like. Be it for health or moral reasons. If it is for moral reasons that's fantastic, and I applaude you for standing up for what you believe in and doing what you believe is the right thing.

    I don't agree that eating meat "does corrupt and erodes [my] set of moral values." Eating meat doesn't offend my morals, at all. Now, you might say that it is because my moral values have already been corrupted and so on, but that assumes that all morality is the same. I'm not going to defend my diet because I don't feel I have to, I won't impose my beliefs on you.

    The industrial farm system does offend my morals. It destroyes the environment and fuck. I like to buy my food locally, when it is possible.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2007
  10. protonaut

    protonaut Well-Known Member

    I feel good about being Vegan, but I feel even better realizing I don't need to defend my beliefs.

    I see there are good reasons to prefer meat, and there are good reasons for being Vegan.

    Ultimately, it's your decision to make, only yours. Your choice is what's best for you.
     
  11. Trip the Dark fantastic

    Trip the Dark fantastic Well-Known Member

    protonaut, your answer could be interpreted as avoiding the issue or being ultra-liberal in your attitude. It certainly doesn't offend neither meat eaters nor vegetarians and that's fine if the posting-thread wouldn't be called 'defending veganism'.

    I do agree with
    but disagree with
    ...Tell that an obese person, whose choice is stuffing the face full of Belgian chocolate just because...

    .
     
  12. protonaut

    protonaut Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I know. It's not meant to be taken that literally.

    I'm saying I believe in the freedom of choice of the individual.

    There is a lot of evidence that Veganism is beneficial, and those pursuing that information should have no trouble finding it.

    However, I'm not here to convince others of this, nor do I think anything I say would influence meat-eaters to change. If anyone does have questions about Veganism, feel free to send me a PM and I'll be happy to supply resources.

    I'm not opposed to others debating the topic, though I choose to take a neutral stance on this matter, due to my belief in freedom of choice.
     
  13. Trip the Dark fantastic

    Trip the Dark fantastic Well-Known Member

    And here I certainly find common ground again.

    If freedom of choice has been informed by some insights into what other -maybe better?? -choices are out there, then any discussion about vegetarianism served its purpose.

    .
     
  14. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    I wrote a huge reply and accidentally deleted it :_( . ill try again though

    Treat others the way you want to be treated should apply to animals as well. The elitist attitude that more evolved beings can do what ever they choose to less evolved beings just leads to and endless cycle of suffering. How would you feel if giants or aliens or some thing tortured abused and ate us? or even other human beings cause thats happened countless times in our history. It wouldn't be right and I bet that if we ever met a more evolved species they would think it wasn't right too. Humans don't have to be cruel, we are evolving into more moral beings, and I bet in the future people will be much less cruel than they are now. and i think the least harm principle says vegetarianism is the best way to go. think about things in other people views. You can care and try to do whats right or be evil and not give a fuck about any thing, which one is the most logical choice? and can you really mix them together logically? eating meat isn't always wrong no, never said that did I. eating meat is natural for some species yes. Do we have to be cruel and inhumane to the creatures we eat? no.
     
  15. protonaut

    protonaut Well-Known Member

    I honestly get sick to my stomach in grocery stores. Just thinking about all the unsold food that will expire and be thrown out - much of this being meat, which is much harder to preserve than grain for example. Regardless, all types of food are disposed of while people are starving on the streets of our cities or dying from malnutrition in impoverished foreign countries.

    I have a very weak stomach in general. I swear, I'll probably die from self-imposed starvation if I'm confined to this society much longer.

    Yeah, anyway... ignore the hippie. Carry on with the conversation.
     
  16. anonymous51

    anonymous51 Staff Alumni

    :laugh: proto you would hate my job, i work the meat department...

    Your right about the whole waste of food, the amount of products i take off the shelves and binned is insane. We arent even allowed to give it away to an animal shelter for food or whatever, its company law that the product must not be given away for free and must be wasted.... fucking madness
     
  17. protonaut

    protonaut Well-Known Member

  18. Panther

    Panther Well-Known Member

    I must admit I can't understand veganism at all .. vegetaranism is no problem with me, although I am not, but to be a vegan strikes me as something quite unnatural personally.

    But, I like milk a lot ..
     
  19. protonaut

    protonaut Well-Known Member

    Riverbank, people usually choose to avoid dairy products because a lot of the money funds slaughter industries, just as it does when we purchase meat.

     
  20. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, but I'm considering to try ceasing with both dairy and eggs, as well, mainly due to that which protonaut commented on; the funding of the meat industry, through the dairy and egg industry. However, in Sweden, it is, at least, easy to get dairy and eggs from cows and chickens that have been treated well, but considering that it usually funds the meat industry, it undoubtedly still is a problem.

    I don't really want to participate in this discussion, much, since it never leads anywhere, but it is a fact that those who don't think it is a problem eating meat are cruel and selfish. If, however, anyone may have a wish to know more about my standings, they can check my old posts, in the Vegetarianism and Abortion threads, in this forum section.

    One thing, however... many people point out that animals are needed, in order for ecological plants to be possible to be grown, due to the need of manure. This is untrue; a recent, Scottish discovery has found that mere minerals, from normal, pulverised stone, are the best way to fertilise the earth.
     
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