Does a perfect God make mistakes ?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by ProzacDeathWish, Jul 9, 2007.

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  1. As a Christian I was taught that God doesn't make mistakes, and indeed the qualities of his divine nature actually make that scenario impossible.

    According to Christian doctrine ( in general ) the disease, natural disasters, etc, and other imperfections in the natural world are blamed upon the results of "sin" and the effects of angelic and human rebellion against God.

    In other words, all the misery in the world can't be laid at the feet of God because when you look at "the devil did it." The Evil One, along with Adam and Eve, are to blame for screwing up creation.

    Think about it, if you will. The ancient Hebrews basically created the concept of the Jewish ( and later Christian ) God. If the Judeo-Christian God is incapable of making mistakes then there is a conflict between their concept of God... who can only act in a perfect, flawless way... and the reality of the imperfect world that they ( and we ) live in.

    There must be an answer to this paradox....The Devil did it !!! This solution lets the perfect God off the hook and provides a solution to the conflicting "realities." The ancient Hebrews ( and later, Jewish Christians ) had to create the angel Lucifer /Satan to be the fall guy, the scape goat as it were.

    In my simple little monkey brain my concept of a perfect God is one that can only create a perfect cosmos, Perfection can only create perfection..a God who creates anything that even leads to imperfection is not perfect. Perfect Beings don't screw up...ever.

    Feel free to rip apart my theories is you wish ( as a former Christian I can basically predict what the rebuttals will deal will, etc )

    Anyway, I'm not trying to ridicule anyone's faith; I'm only posting thoughts that I have mulled over in my head and now I'm sharing them with you guys.

    Peace !
  2. Wow, this thread fell flat and died ! :insomnia:
  3. theleastofthese

    theleastofthese SF Friend Staff Alumni

    Oh I don't know but that free will has quite a bit to do with it. We may have supposedly been "created in His image", but were, after all, given brains and the ability to judge and to choose. And I can't buy into the "devil made me do it" shit. Perhaps, as some eastern philosophies teach, God is part of us, God is within us, and so, by the same token, is the Devil. The evil side of us. Perhaps Satan is not so much a separate "blameable" individual as just a part of our souls, the dark side, as it were.

    Just my opinion, for what it's worth...:rolleyes:

    Very interesting and most debatable subject indeed!

  4. theleastofthese

    theleastofthese SF Friend Staff Alumni

    It did NOT fall flat and die, it just took a while to get going.:wink:
  5. Nope, it's dead.:dead:

    I guess I'll start a new thread...

    "What's your favorite breakfast cereal and why ?"

    ..I'm sure that will generate more interest. :wallbash:

    Oh well, what ever...:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2007
  6. theleastofthese

    theleastofthese SF Friend Staff Alumni

    Breakfast cereal???:blink::blink: I'd rather discuss an imperfect God.
  7. Bostonensis

    Bostonensis Guest

    I am not sure if it is worth exploring here . Fundies are just too intolerant to the true colors of it.

    Or in the contrary maybe threads like what is favorite color of underwear is more mind stimulating. Or who is your favorite SF mods? +++++++

    What a brilliant idea ,Bernardo.
  8. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    agreed, a perfect god can't exist in this reality.
  9. Bostonensis

    Bostonensis Guest

    Absolutely No way. Perfection is a product of illusion therefore god is an illusion.
  10. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Hey PDW. It's kinda funny, because I just started reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the part of the reading was about the same subject. They said how could a perfect God create a world in which evil exists? Now, this goes along the lines of "free will", which is what you were expecting, but it cleared it up a little bit for me. It said that God is not just "perfect" in action, but in wisdom, judgment and mercy. So while God is perfectly able to create a world which does not allow evil to exist in any way, his wisdom, judgement and mercy required him to create a world in which we could voluntarily serve or NOT serve him. It also said that even though great evil exists in the world, God in his infinite power uses all evil for good in some way. All evil that we CHOOSE to do only brings the world toward its ultimate end, which is the glorification of God and peace on Earth.
  11. johnsmythe

    johnsmythe Well-Known Member

    Define "perfect".
  12. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    I would say..."unerring"?
  13. johnsmythe

    johnsmythe Well-Known Member

    And then I would ask "Define unerring". But I wont cause that would be jerking you around.

    Perfect is a relative term. When you say god is perfect , I ask "perfect compared to what?"

    and if you say god is perfect in the sense of the definition that is most commonly agreed upon, then I would say that he doesnt make mistakes. If you're defining him as perfect then he can't make mistakes and the flaw lies in what your definition of a mistake is.

    Trying to answer questions about something with no definition (god) is impossible without making assumptions or making up answers.
  14. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    You are right in the sense that "God" is indefinable. We either believe in him, or we don't. Faith plays a huge part, but then faith is something that cannot be defined in concrete terms as well. I see God as existing in infinite time. While we exist in "time", which is an arbitrary linear thing that we (being finite) use as a measure of things that have happened and will happen, God exists outside of this. Forever and eternity is already accomplished with him, and so we cannot see the eternal outcome. Yeah, I know this sounds like a rationalization for the world's problems and evils, but there are scientists who have actually proven via mathematics that we live in a multi-dimensional universe in which time is merely an arbitrary construct and that God therefore can/must exist as a somewhat objective and omnipotent power.
  15. Okay then, define "definition". What exactly do you mean by "define" ? Defined relative to what ? Should we use a dictionary or would that be cheating ?

    ps. esoteric word games are bullshit. ( Oops, I forgot !..should I define "bullshit" for you. too ? )
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2007
  16. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    So peanut you're saying god wants evil to exists? That is why he created people to make mistakes instead of designing them to choose whats best? Why would a perfect, benevolent god want evil to exist? It wouldn't that's ridiculous. How can god judge people on wether they were good or bad in there life when they are completely relative?

    You say god wants us to have free will to do what ever we choose. But obviously he doesn't as jesus dislikes us making any mistakes in the bible. If I have free will and god wants it to be that way, why would he get angry or upset when I choose to do certain things or not do certain things? God wouldn't but the primitive man made god of the bible would.

    There maybe a greater power in the universe but its definitely not jesus or any other man made religious gods.
  17. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    God doesn't WANT evil to exist. God ALLOWS evil to exist as an extension of our free will. And good and evil aren't really that relative. There is FAR more black and white than there is grey. But Christians believe the Bible teaches them the difference between good and evil, Muslims the Koran, Jews the Torah, and so on.

    And I don't think God gets angry when we do evil, I think it makes him sad and hurts our relationship with him. God hopes that our free will will cause us to do the right thing, but he also accepts that we might not. He doesn't just want a bunch of robots running around.
  18. theleastofthese

    theleastofthese SF Friend Staff Alumni

    Peanut I really like your ideas about "time" and "infinity" and multi-dimentional worlds. I like them cause for all my doubts and disbeliefs I like to believe in the impossible - just because I can, because I CHOOSE to believe so.

    Do you subscribe to a particular religious belief or franchise, as I call them? I'm practicing Presbyterian, with a LOT of Eastern philosophies thrown into the mix. Just curious.
  19. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Hi least! I actually read a book once (and I cannot for the LIFE of me remember the name), but it was written by a physicist who used physics to "prove" the existence of at least 14 dimensions and a God who exists within and outside of them all at once. I'm crap at math, so a lot of it went over my head :) but the basic idea was that we and our lives take exist on a time the number lines we used to use in school. So to us, there is past, present and future. But God exists outside of this time line. For God, past, present and future are the same because he is infinite. This helped explain free will vs. pre-destination for me. Yes, God knows what choices we will make and what our future holds because for him, it's already happened. But we are still free to make our own choices, and they do have an effect on our lives. Just because God knows what will happen does not mean that we have no free will. So God would know the names written in "the book of life" for example, bit our choices put us there.

    I am actually a Catholic, but when we took our Confirmation class, they actually told us it was up to us to study our beliefs, the Bible, other religions, etc. and decide on our own what we believe. Just because I might not believe everything the Catholic church says doesn't make me a bad Catholic, because I have made an honest effort to study for myself and come to my own conclusions. For example, I don't really believe in a permanent Hell, not because I don't WANT there to be one (which of course, I don't), but because I've done a lot of studying about it and I don't believe that is the nature of God. So if I do or believe something that goes against the church's beliefs, as long as I understand WHY I feel this way and have done my due diligence in trying to form my own beliefs, then it is not a sin, even according to the church. It's only a sin if it goes against my conscience, so long as I have taken the necessary steps to develop my conscience responsibly.

    Because of this, I also think there is a LOT of wisdom to be had in Eastern religions, especially regarding meditation. I once heard someone say "Prayer is talking to God, meditation is listening to God". I don't think we listen enough here in the East :)

    I think you have some interesting beliefs as well. I LOVE your statement that you believe because you can and because you CHOOSE to. In the long run, it is all about choice. If you don't want to believe in God, no amount of evidence will ever be enough, and that's o.k. I guess. That's where faith comes in. I think if God just appeared to us all right now it would be an infringement on our free will, but I believe that if we have enough faith, we give God permission to act in our lives without infringing on our free will.
  20. I agree with what Peanut has said thus far in this thread. While my religious views are minimum and I cannot claim to be a Christian due to so many conflicts I have with the religion, there are certain aspects of it which I do believe in. One, that there is a God. Two, that God gave people free will, which was used by Adam and Eve, whom given a perfect paradise, Eden, to live in by God, they violated a very simple request told to them by God, who, in his own free will, chose to banish Adam and Eve from Eden for what in my opinion, was a very stupid decision made by them to disobey God, when God had been so generous to them in the first place. And three, I believe that if we choose to be as good of people as we can be in the light of God's perfection, even throughout our failings forgiven by the perfect, forgiving nature of God, that we will go to heaven. In my situation, to the island.
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