Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Mikeintx, May 21, 2010.
I think it's time to modernize Islam.
I heard about this the other day.
I agree, it is awesome.
I saw this on the news... Pakistan have blocked Facebook and youtube because of it. :blink: Extreme I think...
Edit, I see they've blocked flickr and wikipedia too!
I don't think anybody should go out of their way to insult anybody else in this matter. On the other hand, we do live in a society predicated on "freedom of speech" and expression. South Park has insulted ALL religions, gods, Christ, etc... You can choose to watch or not watch this program. I do find some of their material to have crossed the line, but it's my choice as to whether I want to continue watching it. They are answerable only to the federal censors and their own conscience in my estimation.
Curious to see what happened with the contest.
I hate how everything's a joke with people these days. Everything that is valued anywhere is marginalized as meaningless. And then we question why so many people are major depressives with nothing to believe in and nothing of value to live for. Everything there seemed to have been to live for has been reduced to a cheap punchline.
I hate the nature of humanity because of the way it is.
When are you < Mod edit Hazel: Offensive > Americans going to learn that not everyone wants to be as lighthearted as you are about religion? Some cultures actually take their beliefs and values seriously. Why go to so many lengths to disrespect and insult believers anyway? Disrespect is how this shit got started... and I'm not talking about drawings.
It's not about disrespecting it's about not bowing down under threats of violence.
Freedom of speech should not just be okay sometimes.
Yes, it is ALL about disrespect and irreverence, because it's been made to be entertaining to ridicule and demean the values of others. The threat of violence wouldn't have happened had this avoidable stupidity not happened in the first place. Not that it's acceptable to threaten to kill someone for having free thought, but it's the manner in which that free thought is expressed that society should be far more conscious of than it is now. And encouraging or fanning the flames of insult is certainly not making social affairs any BETTER. Sometimes the things you want to say are better left unsaid, or at least in a respectfully honest manner, when the risk outweighs the benefit.
So then exactly where is the line drawn of what is and isn't okay to poke fun at?
Of course many things are better left unsaid, and it is unnecessary to piss off Muslims like that. Just common sense in the keeping of peace.
But this situation is more a matter of principle, not common sense.
Is it disrespectful that they drew Muhammed? Yes, I'm not claiming that it isn't.
But the point of Draw Muhammed Day is to show that terror is not going to triumph over free speech.
They aren't just pissing on their values for the hell of it. Was South Park? Probably.
I heard that the creators of South Park had received death threats for their Muhammad episode so much so that the network had to censor all references from the said episode. This seems about a 1000 times more antagonistic so who ever set draw Muhammad day up has got some major steel balls, I'll give em that. :unsure:
EDIT: The creator has now issued an apology and has asked for the day to be called off.
I don't know... I like the idea of change in pretty much all aspects of life- but not when it's meant disrespectfully and purely as an offensive joke.
A joke is great when both parties can laugh at themselves.
Offensiveness is where the satire comes in, Kittygirl!
I'm well aware the majority of Christians/Muslims aren't killing people about it and don't want to kill in the name of their god, but that doesn't change the fact their respective texts sure do espouse a lot of murdering.
All religions have been satirized in literature and in the media. What makes Islam better than any other belief, that it is beyond ridicule? Unlike luminaries of other religions, I can't think of more than a handful of Muslims who have contributed anything worthwhile to make this world a better place. Their faith, like grains of wood, points to being a faceless automaton.
An example is one of your heroes, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1929, Imam Hasan Al Banna. You see, when he was a student, he happened to pass by a river in Mahmoodiya where he spied a yacht. A wooden statue of a naked woman was perched on it. This offended Hasan's puritan eyes, and so he notified the police. His confession impressed the cop so much, he went to the blabbermouth's school and praised the student's bitchy snitching.
This is an example of your scholarly heroism, which means removing everything that offends your eyes. If Muslims insist on living on this narrow religious plane and arrogantly force their views on others via terrorism, they should all pluck their eyes out.
Is freedom of expression limited in certain areas?
Not exactly freedom is it. I just sigh at the fact that some people cant accept another percetion on their thoughts or beliefes. If you believe it, what difference does an outside opinon make. I suppose it is like someone insulting your own mother. Im pretty sure she can stand her own ground and take idiotic comments, that is, unless those comments are warrented. Some people just won't let other things touch their bubble worlds.
I agree with the principle behind it, but not entirely with it's execution. A number of people tend to use these well-intentioned initiatives as a pretext for inciting controversy, gaining publicity, or out of mere spite.
While such motivations are obviously within the parameters of freedom of speech, masking petty and aggressive intentions under the banner of a free speech crusade cheapens the the objective somewhat.
Pit, Muslims have made incredible contributions to science, literature, philosophy, and the progression of humanity in general. Look up the Golden Age of Islam, and you'll find a considerable number of Muslims who have made notable impacts to the human race. Even today, there are many Muslim innovators and thinkers, such as Muhammad Yunnus, who are doing good things in the world.
The example of "scholarly heroism" that you singled out could be made of any belief system, religious or secular. Nothing is immune from the corruption and abuse of demagogues. The Muslim Brotherhood follow one of many schools of Islam, which like any faith has denominations across the political spectrum (for a liberal alternative, look up Sufism).
About Free speech? Maybe for some - but I support it to annoy Muslims :smile:
Why? because there is a war going on between the ideas of sky based stupidity and those based on reason..............and in war there are no rules. Certainly none about being nice. or reasonable.
And besides, if the Muslims couldn't take a joke they wouldn't worship a Paedo :laugh:
:trolls: Mohammed Dancing Earlier Today :smile:
I'm not normally in favour of antagonizing religions, but I hope this will force the Muslim world to realise they're going to have to back off and desensitize themselves to this, because they can't deal with this sort of thing through bullying.
Hell, I suspect it was successful in that long before it actually happened. Instead of calls for genocide going out, websites were merely blocked. This is progress.
Respect for the life and liberty of others should always be greater than respect religion or any other institution.
Anyone who finds such depictions of a long dead warlord to be worth killing or even making threats over has no place speaking of respect and I still believe that anyone offended should grow a pair, religion is poison but it doesnt bother me if someone finds it brings some inner peace through practising in private.
Dear Brothers and Sisters:
May God help you and I undergo whatever life deals us with courage and smiles on our faces. Above all, may God give us His Guidance, Put us and Keep us on the Straight Path.
When I express my views, I am not looking for agreement or even approval. Please realize I am not in need of the aforesaid stamps when what I’m writing is born of pure intention and contains my truth.
Before I begin, I should make clear I think God and His Prophets are high above the negative expressions anyone might think to use or utilize whatever the purpose.
Yet, yes, regarding this issue, I am offended. But not for the reasons one might think. However, before I explain, I must make a few points clear (lest what I say be misinterpreted by a few).
Does that mean I agree with threats or even perhaps violence against those who do not agree with the teachings of Islam to not draw Prophet Muhammad? No.
Never would I agree with violence, threats, or persecution of any individuals regardless of reason. I especially disagree with groups, of whatever religion, creed or orientation, who practice this type of behavior. Thus, I submit that I also disagree with the minority who engage/engaged in such behavior.
Everyday, people impose self-limitations on their speech. If you’re a guy, you probably do or have done so in your speech when your girlfriend or your spouse asked you, “Am I fat?” If you’re an employee at any type of workplace, you’ll probably have restrained yourself from telling your boss a few home truths when he/she criticized you unfairly, sometimes even fairly. If you’re a parent, you’ll probably have tried to impose restrictions on your son/daughter’s language with you, especially when the latter person is angry with or yelling at you. If you are a girl, you probably tried to see that you did not hurt your friend by any word if you ever disliked her choice of relationship with someone who meant anything to them. Is then such a hard road to travel and think that Muslim, though they do not have any place in your life, might like the same courtesy out of respect for their beliefs?
Nevertheless, I am continuously befuddled by people’s approaches to this, in terms of how this ultimately becomes a freedom of speech question. Please realize that nowhere in the world does any individual have complete freedom of speech. You are not allowed to publish military or intelligence reports or even the protected secrets of your company as stated in your employment contract. If you do so, you will be arrested. Albeit an extreme example, it’s also one I wish to make with regards to restriction of free speech. You are not allowed to yell “fire” randomly in the theater. If you do, you will be arrested. You are not allowed to use hateful, inciting speech that directly causes riots. If you do, you will be arrested. Freedom of speech has limits; this is regardless of whatever country you live in (though probably this freedom is severely limited or virtually nonexistent unfortunately if you do or should reside in a third-world country).
“Freedom of speech,” as I see the expression commonly used, by people across the spectrum is a myth perpetrated by most persons of good intentions having succumbed to the attractiveness of the catchphrase. The truth, however, is that freedom of speech does not encompass absoluteness—which is to say—freedom of speech has specific and certain limits. In many states of the U.S., for example, despite U.S. Supreme Court having struck down such laws in the past, you cannot burn the U.S. flag. Those limits are imposed by your own state or even your country’s laws, depending on where you live. In that same manner, Islam has curtailed the freedom of speech in one regard. In Islam, this particular freedom of speech, drawing of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), is prohibited. Why? If you know anything of Islam, you will know that Muslims too believes in Jesus (peace upon him). However, Muslims believe differently about Jesus than Christians of today. To understand the context of this particular situation and why this restriction was placed on this freedom of speech and its repercussions on Muslims’ understanding of its principle, you must first travel back through time to its origin.
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) was greatly concerned over what his followers might do after his death. Even if you do not regard Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as a prophet, do consider that his followers did: Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did not want his followers to be misled by the whispers of Satan into mankind’s breast by placing ideas of venerating him as divine in their minds or hearts. Muslims believe that this is what happened with Jesus who was sent as a messenger and a sign of God’s miracle to the Children of Israel whom they rejected him out of stubbornness. Those who had at the time of Jesus Christ lived amongst him and had accepted his message of monotheism greatly respected but they neither worshipped him or to him. In fact, neither James (brother of Jesus) nor his family ever regarded Jesus as divine, though his birth was a miracle and his life was filled with them. Fearing that Muslims might too say that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is a son of God instead of servant of God, though he lived amongst him as a living, breathing human being, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explicitly told his followers (Source: Hadith): “Do not exceed bounds in praising me, as the Christians do in praising Jesus, the son of Mary, by calling him God, and the son of God; I am only the Lord’s servant; then call me the servant of God and His messenger.”
Also, knowing how Satan works to instill false beliefs and mislead pious followers, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) forbade his followers to make statues or pictures of him at the time of his living. He lived amongst pagan Arabs who were used to exactly such a type of worship and from which he was calling them to Islam, which is why this was important for him to denote to Muslims who’d converted from such paganism. The Prophet (SAW) knew that God does not like those who transgress limits, and while the original intention of the picture-maker might be innocent such as to be reminded of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as a prophet after his death, later generations of Muslims might inadvertently fall into idol-worship by looking at the pictures or statues of him and start believing him to be divine. Moreover, Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) never gave a command of his own but God’s will. So, they believe in the practice of this prohibition. Also, apart from drawing him out of admiration, the other reason for drawing him could be out of reasons to make a joke, and that is by similar reasoning prohibited in Islam as that is not respectful of his status as a Prophet (SAW) of God. This principle generally makes the situation such as the one above of “Draw Muhammad Day” (pbuh) hurtful. Islamic leaders thus especially do not want to see depictions of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in an insulting and demeaning manner in the spirit of “freedom of speech” when this is in fact crude “racism” that is encouraged in the guise of “freedom of speech.” Also, you’ll notice Muslims do not do depictions of any prophets mentioned in the Torah or the Bible and only for one primary reason: Islam accords great respect to all prophets who came before Islam preaching the same message of monotheism the Prophet was told to preach as the last messenger of God.
So, with that in mind, I would like to proceed as to why I am offended. Contrary to what you might suppose, I am not offended for the above reason of prohibition. Like I said originally which I’ll repeat, “God and His Prophets are high above the negative expressions anyone might think to use or utilize whatever the purpose.” I am not offended because people are using freedom of speech to express what they want though they do so to offend. Believe me, worse was said and done to Prophet Muhammad during his lifetime without him being afforded any of the protection of the modern liberties we take for granted living in the West. So, why am I offended?
I am offended because people in general fail to realize they are not celebrating freedom of speech but celebrating the degradation of the values freedom of speech was meant to espouse. Freedom of speech in the West was not meant to give people originally the right to explicitly offend simply because they could—believe it or not. Freedom of speech was meant to curtail the power of the Church and the State to censor free speech in a society that was oppressed by the thumbs of both to the point wherein a published account like Galileo’s sun-centric theory centuries ago was forced to be recanted though he knew he was speaking the truth for fear of being deemed heretical. But today, people are not exercising their right to “free speech” but their access to “hatefulness” by offense and some media then capitalizes on self-serving want of making news sensationalistic. In demeaning others’ beliefs, they also demean themselves. If you endeavor to blacken with soot others, do you not see that your hands are covered with soot too? That is why I’m offended. I’m offended on the behalf of the people who like to demean themselves whether they perceive that as a consequence of their behavior or not. I’m offended because instead of engaging in meaningful social or societal exercises, people like to celebrate events like “Draw Muhammad Day” (pbuh). I’m offended not first because of whom I identify with, Muslims, but because foremost I’m a person. I’m a person with feelings, one that fails to see what is so funny.
What’s even sadder than all of this, in my opinion, is that people object to Muslims’ objection of offense when instead mutual respect and sharing of meaningful speech or any dialogue could be of benefit to both sides. I’m also offended when certain Islamic groups’ peaceful verbal protest against such is called “intolerance” when the intolerance is directed towards them instead. Anyone can make a cartoon and say “I have a right to make it.” It takes a stronger person to say “I disagree with your specific beliefs but I respect what you say though I do not have to like it.” The fact that people do not do observe this is the real tragedy. If you know or will know Muslims, you’ll know we laugh at ourselves. But where’s the joke here that I too can laugh with you? I see no punch lines, only punches directed at Islam.
In our society, laughter is medicine. But then where’s the healing?