France bans Muslim veils!

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by shades, Sep 14, 2010.

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  1. shades

    shades Staff Alumni

    I believe it must pass another governing body first regarding their constitution, but the French are well on their way to banning full Muslim veils because "it is in conflict with local culture". It would even go so far as to ban them for tourists!

    WOW! Frankly I can't believe it and though I haven't given much thought to this, my initial reaction is that I would not want the U.S. to do the same.

    How do you feel about this?
  2. Edgar Roni Figaro

    Edgar Roni Figaro Well-Known Member

    Congrats to France for sticking up for the French citizens. 5 million muslims now live in France and there numbers continue to grow. But I guess every European country should just bend over backwards for the muslim invasion. It's not enough that the muslims number over 1 billion worldwide and have their sharia law in over a dozen countries. Now they have to come to Europe and try to force the citizens of Europe to adopt there ways.

    Next step France close your borders and cut off all muslim immigration. Save your country before your culture is annihilated.

    "As the population shrinks, so does the culture. As of 2007, the fertility rate in France was 1.8, England 1.6, Greece 1.3, Germany 1.3, Italy 1.2, Spain 1.1. Across the entire European Union of 31 countries, the fertility is a mere 1.38. Historical research tells us these numbers are impossible to reverse. In a matter of years, Europe as we know it will cease to exist.

    Yet the population of Europe is not declining. Why? Immigration. Islamic Immigration. Of all population growth in Europe since 1990, 90% has been Islamic Immigration. France, 1.8 children per family. Muslims: 8.1. In Southern France, traditionally one of the most populated church regions in the world, there are now more Mosques than churches. 30% of children ages 20 and younger, 30% are Muslim. In the large cities such as Nice, Marseilles and Paris, that number has grown to 45%. By 2027, 1 in 5 Frenchmen will be Muslim. In just 39 years, France will be an Islamic Republic."

    "PARIS - Friday in Paris. A hidden camera shows streets blocked by huge crowds of Muslim worshippers and enforced by a private security force.

    This is all illegal in France: the public worship, the blocked streets, and the private security. But the police have been ordered not to intervene.

    It shows that even though some in the French government want to get tough with Muslims and ban the burqa, other parts of the French government continue to give Islam a privileged status.

    An ordinary French citizen who has been watching the Islamization of Paris decided that the world needed to see what was happening to his city. He used a hidden camera to start posting videos on YouTube( His life has been threatened and so he uses the alias of "Maxime Lepante. "

    Lepante's View

    His camera shows that Muslims "are blocking the streets with barriers. They are praying on the ground. And the inhabitants of this district cannot leave their homes, nor go into their homes during those prayers."

    "The Muslims taking over those streets do not have any authorization. They do not go to the police headquarters, so it's completely illegal," he says.

    The Muslims in the street have been granted unofficial rights that no Christian group is likely to get under France's Laicite', or secularism law.

    "It says people have the right to share any belief they want, any religion," Lepante explained. "But they have to practice at home or in the mosque, synagogues, churches and so on."

    Some say Muslims must pray in the street because they need a larger mosque. But Lepante has observed cars coming from other parts of Paris, and he believes it is a weekly display of growing Muslim power.

    "They are coming there to show that they can take over some French streets to show that they can conquer a part of the French territory," he said.

    France's Islamic Future?

    If France faces an Islamic future, a Russian author has already written about it. The novel is called "The Mosque of Notre Dame, 2048," a bestseller in Russia, not in France.

    French publisher Jean Robin said the French media ignored the book because it was politically incorrect.

    "Islam is seen as the religion of the poor people, so you can't say to the poor people, 'You're wrong,' otherwise, you're a fascist," Robin explained.

    The book lays out a dark future when France has become a Muslim nation, and the famous cathedral has been turned into a mosque.

    Whether that plot is farfetched depends on whom you ask. Muslims are said to be no more than 10 percent of the French population, although no one knows for sure because French law prohibits population counts by religion.

    But the Muslim birthrate is significantly higher than for the native French. Some Muslim men practice polygamy, with each extra wife having children and collecting a welfare check.

    "The problem of Islam is more than a problem of numbers," said French philosopher Radu Stoenescu, an Islamic expert who debates Muslim leaders on French TV. "The problem is one of principles. It's an open question. Is Islam an ideology or just a creed?"

    "It doesn't matter how many there are," he aded. "The problem is the people who follow Islam; they're somehow in a political party, which has a political agenda, which means basically implementing Sharia and building an Islamic state."

    In Denial or Fed Up

    From the 1980s until recently, criticizing or opposing Islam was considered a social taboo, and so the government and media effectively helped Islam spread throughout France.

    "We were expecting Islam to adapt to France and it is France adapting to Islam," Robin said.

    About the burqa controversy, one French Muslim man told a reporter that Europeans should respect Muslim dress. One Parisian woman wearing a headscarf said "the veil is in the Koran" and "we only submit to God and nobody else."

    But even if many government elites are in France are in denial over Islam, the people in the streets increasingly are not. Some have become fed up with what they see as the growing Islamization of France.

    They've started staging pork and wine "aperitifs," or cocktail parties in the street. They're patriotic demonstrations meant to strike back against Islam. Another national demonstration is planned for Saturday, Sept. 4.

    A Warning to the West

    The French parliament is expected to debate the burqa law in September. Jean-Francois Cope, president of the Union for a Popular Movement political party, has a warning for the West and for America.

    "We cannot accept the development of such practice because it's not compatible with the life in a modern society, you see," he said. "And this question is not only a French question. You will all have to face this challenge. "
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2010
  3. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    Personally, it does not bother me. The fact that it is in according to a religion, I think that it should be up to that person, if they want to wear it, they should be able to. That is in a way, like saying a person is not allowed the freedom to follow their beliefs, or religion. I think banning it, when it is to do with a personal religion that it is going too far. I personally would never wear them, and I know not all Muslim women wear them - I'm not altogether sure what that is about... I always assumed it had to do with how reformed or strict their personal way was. But either way, I don't think there is anything wrong with people wearing the veil. I have noticed some people have issues with it, but I also noticed a lot of the people I have heard, had ignorant reasons behind it. Like some would say it means they are a terrorist, if they wear them (but that doesn't mean that, it's to do with religion, nothing else) - however, that is far from the purpose of wearing it, so I find that an invalid reason.... As it has nothing to do with that. Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with wearing it, as long as it is a personal choice, and not felt you are obligated to it.
  4. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    Arg. What a severly FRUSTRATING world I live in. I care nothing for religion, I care for lifes freedom to exist. Whatever. Just another person to be dismissed as I'll always be. Im sure others feel the same, oh wait yeah they do! Usually they do something drastic to be heard and "acknowledged".

  5. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    ..why ban the veils? "Oh no, that person is wearing something we don't wear! HERETIC! YOU'LL BE ARRESTED FOR THIS!"

    Blocking streets and other such is, as it should be, punishable by law. But wearing different head attire? What the hell? Why not ban t-shirts, or sneakers, or fedoras, or turbans? The veils aren't harming anyone.

    "Defending French values"? Jokes aside, what the hell? Nobody is forcing any french persons from wearing them. They're not covering.. whatever values it is the French value.

    And, Edgar, what the hell Fox news are you watching. "Islam invasion"? If they're committing crimes, arrest them for that. If they're just being there, so what? "Oh no! They're different, and there's a lot of them! They will drown out all of us better folk! We must stop them!".

    "The book lays out a dark future when France has become a Muslim nation".. Oh, how grim, they've converted to a DIFFERENT RELIGION! How scary.

    Sometimes I wonder what the people think muslims are, because in reality, they're just people. (But they're not us, so they're evil and we can't let them be a part of us! They'll convert us!)
    ..there are so many things wrong with this, I'm not sure where to begin. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here, other than the french government forcing muslims not to wear veils. There's no conversion going on. If people are worried about muslims blocking the streets, then get the police to clear them up, as they should do with all who block the streets. If people are worried about muslims outnumbering non-muslims.. Why? Why do you care what other people believe in? Why do you think that they'll change anything?

    "bend over backwards for the muslim invasion".. Wow. This'd make a good extremist hate-crime rally.

    Food for thought: If a country were to ban public display of crosses (Excluding official buildings, for they are to be neutral), how big would the shitstorm be? How many would applaud it?
  6. morning rush

    morning rush Well-Known Member

    you know if we went to their muslim country, they would cut women's head off for not wearing the veil and the face cover, they don't care whether your from america or anywhere else, you got to abide by their rules....and so it should be the same in other countries....if they come here, they should abide by our rules and if our rules say no veil, then its no veil....I mean over here in quebec we are debating wether veiled woman(with face covers) should be allowed to keep their veil when voting or going on an air plane, for all we know it could be a terrorist, the same person pretending to be someone else...etc...

    I think we're far too lenient with immigrants and foreigners and that's why we get abused so much....
  7. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    The policies that a muslim dominate country lives by does not define the muslim culture. The same goes for all religions.

    The point should be to have freedom of expression in our countries and allow diversity. As far as voting goes? There defiantly needs to be verification of who is underneath the veil. There's a difference in moderate bending on both sides of the fence to an entire ban of someones lifestyle.
  8. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    [citation needed]

    Aye, that's how it should be.
  9. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni SF Supporter

    It's literally sickening. And incredibly depressing. It makes me hope the world ends in 2012. This disgusts me.
  10. nagisa

    nagisa Staff Alumni

    It makes me so angry. I want to scream.
  11. IV2010

    IV2010 Well-Known Member

    I think France is justified in what they're doing by banning the Burka...
    I hope Australia follows...
    it's true if we women went over there and didn't cover our heads we would probably be stoned to death...
    If these people don't want to assimilate with our way of life then let them stay in their own country and don't come here telling us that we should change and accept their way of life...
    it makes me so mad that we can't even celebrate Christmas, easter, traditionally in our schools anymore for fear of upsetting Muslims....and yet here they are sitting in the streets of France flouting the law...:argh:
  12. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    That's interesting about all women there getting their heads cut off for not wearing it, no matter where they are from... As my cousin is working on a PHD in Egyptology among other things, and she's been to Egypt, Jerusalem, and and places in the middle east in general, and she did not wear one, and her head is still attached.

    I don't think I've ever heard of a law of cutting everyone's heads off - where did you read that? :unsure:
  13. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    Fears of a Muslim takeover of Europe are overblown. Muslims weren't imposing the veil on anyone. They simply want the right to wear it as per their preference. Sure, a lot of extremist elements go on about imposing sharia law and such, but they're essentially straw men, in that they don't speak for the majority nor represent it's views.

    Demographic data is misleading because it ignores that fact that many of the Muslims that will constitute significant but still tiny minorities in these countries will be second and third generations - far better integrated than their parents (even if not perfectly so). A 20% Muslim population hardly constitutes an Islamic republic anymore than having a black population of 13% makes us close to being an African country.

    Besides, that video's claims are false. France's lacite laws do not apply to religiously themed demonstrations. The country is subject to disruptive protests all the time. And as for the ban, it seems to fit with Sarkozy's shift to xenophobic populism following his rapid decline in approval. His harder stance on Roma is widely viewed as being a similar stunt.
  14. flyingdutchmen

    flyingdutchmen Well-Known Member

    in places like egypt, israel or the emirates you would as a woman most likely be able to travel without having to wear an burqa,
    where you could not do this would be any taliban, hamas or al-qaida controlled area where sharia law applies, which is most parts of afghanistan, pakistan and goes much further than only the burqa though, woman are not even allowed to be educated or work. one must understand that not all parts of these countrys are being controled by the their goverment, but for most parts by war-lords who run the districts under sharia law. iran also has heavy punishment for not wearing an burqa. i am sure your cousin knows this. middle-east isnt middle-east like japan isnt china

    here is a bit more about taliban law for woman and the punishments, which is similar to sharia law

    sorry, this post was kinda off-topic to this tread
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2010
  15. cult logic

    cult logic Staff Alumni

    If that is the way the country feels as a whole, then that is what they should do.
  16. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    I ask of you, who say that they'd cut of their heads, to show sources.

    Note that the Talibans aren't the government anymore, but are lawless criminals, similar to large gangs in the US, except they've more firepower. Basing discrimination on the acts of criminals is eerily similar to saying that all black people are mindless gangsters who wish nothing more than to shoot each other, based on the gangs in the US and in Africa. (Hint: Most black people are, in fact, people. Same as muslims.)

    And then show the reasoning why we should ban people who share their religion, to do as their religion/culture tells them to, when it's not harming anyone.

    And IV2010, schools are an official place of education. There, neutrality is supposed to be dominant. Banning religious/cultural clothing to be worn, ever, is not justified because of what terrorists supposedly do somewhere else, or that you're not allowed to practice your own religious ceremonies in official buildings of education. If, however, they were to ban your ceremonies in your own home, or from shops selling decorations, or songs in the radio, or TV programmes.. That'd be an entirely different thing.
  17. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    I havn't seen it mentioned so far but yes, right now their is a huge contraversy in Iran as they have given a woman "99 lashes" as a newspaper published a photograph of a woman not wearing a veil, not the woman in question but they still deemed she was to be pubished for looking simular.
    This woman is also awaiting death by stoning for commiting adultery, you know, because being a widow and having been seen talking to a man without family supervision is adultery.
    Oh and you know what the Koran actually says on adulterous women? That they should be confined to the house untill you are satisfied they have learned their lesson.

    Barbarism in the name of religion.
  18. Edgar Roni Figaro

    Edgar Roni Figaro Well-Known Member

    I am not a christian so your analogy of using cross banning doesn't really matter to me. Christianity spent the better part of 1000 years subjugating knowledge and science throughout Europe and has finally run its course and is no longer a major threat to the advancement of man. On the other hand Islam is a good 700 years behind christianity and is currently going through it's "kill everyone who doesn't agree with us" phase making it a danger to all of Western civilization. People like you who are clueless to that fact remind me of the frog who sits in warm water while the heat is slowly turned up. Like the frog who will gladly sit there while he boils, people like you will gladly stand by and watch the Western world be over run with muslims until one day you wake up and don't recognize a single cultural aspect of your surroundings. Then it will be too late to do anything.

    Despite what you say France has every right to ban muslim immigration to their country and to ban any traditions that muslims have that the French feel are a threat to them.

    Call me what ever you want I simply don't care. You're politically correct let the fanatics take over every last aspect of Western culture doesn't fly anymore. Europe is being overtaken by muslims. France currently has over 10% of its population following Islamic law. We have seen in over a dozen countries what happens when the majority of the population is muslim. Homosexuals are violently murdered, women who are raped are killed for coming forward about it, anyone with a different religion constantly has their lives at risk. Any scientist of free thinking individual must hide their beliefs or be executed by the state.

    Muslims make up over 1 billion people world wide and currently occupy over 20 nations worldwide and yet people like you would continue to have them spread to and overtake the few nations of the world that have Western values and Western culture. Who the hell gives you the right to tell a whole group of people in their native land that they have to bend over backwards to an invading religious horde of fanatics.

    Muslim birth rates in France are over 8.0 and French birth rates are less than 1.8. This is unsustainable. The French have every right to take every measure available to them to restore there nation, hold onto their traditions, protect their people and ensure their culture is still around 50 years from now.

    Current fertility rates in Europe show that within 50 years half of all Europe's native populations will be gone. over 90% of all immigration to Europe has been muslim over the past decade and continues to be muslim. Within 50 years Europe will be muslim.

    Why don't you show the same concern for a few hundred million Europeans and their culture that you show for the more than 1 billion muslims and the over 20 nations they control as they march across the world growing exponentially?

    Well maybe you will learn when Sharia comes to your neighborhood and you watch your grandchildren convert or die and watch women lose all their rights, agnostic and atheistic scientists slaughtered, and gays be murdered en mass then I'm sure you'll finally get it.

    I have been to countries where muslim fanatics have taken a foothold. I lived in the Philippines for 2 years. A predominantly Catholic nation filled with very friendly and courteous people, the southern island is completely unsafe to travel to and the border between it and the main island is heavily fortified by the government of the Philippines due to you guessed it, a muslim take over. Yet one more example of a nation where the vast majority of its people live in peace and the growing population of muslims, which all migrated to the southern island have attempted to create their own muslim country and continue to kidnap and kill anyone who is non muslim that should happen to go down there.

    It simply blows my mind that with all the real world examples of muslim take over of various nations throughout the world that people like you still don't get it. It makes me realize that you have never witnessed anything about islam except comfortably sitting on your couch looking through a tv. If you lived even for a week in any area around the world where islam is threatening the local population you would change your tune really fast. But it is easy to call people peaceful when it is not your wife getting raped, your child getting her nose cut off, your gay friend being burned alive, or your non-religious friend getting his head cut off.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2010
  19. IV2010

    IV2010 Well-Known Member

    I think what you say is contradictory or maybe i'm misunderstanding say we shouldn't be practicing our religious ceremonies in a place of education..(I"m not religious by the way) but here we can no longer practice or teach christianity in our schools anymore , not even our christmas plays, because we will upset the Muslims....
    but in our places of education the Muslims have to have their own prayer rooms where they can go several times a day to practice their religion and also expect to wear the burqa to school..
    to me this sounds very much like our rights don't matter in our own country anymore...
    Bravo the French and well said Edgar Roni Figaro..:thumbup:
  20. BioHomocide

    BioHomocide Well-Known Member

    We have separation of church and state here in America and I think that veil is a religious thing so in the public sector it will be fine but in the private sector it's up to the people in charge.
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