From a philosophical point of view..

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Grimble, Aug 29, 2011.

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  1. Grimble

    Grimble New Member

    I've been suicdal for a few months now and will probaly go through with it by the end of this year. But, I'm very indifferent about it and that's because of 'Existential nihilism'. I don't beleive god put us on this planet and helps us with our petty problems because he loves us. Most of us technicly will go to hell but man, he still loves us. I don't beleive any of us is a special snowflake with a 'soul'. That whole spirituality thing has ruined everything. Giving people fake hope and ideas, its a total farce. I do beleive we're just a bunch of chemicles that have come together and just like the phenomena of gravity, their is consciousness. Life has no intrinsic meaning or value. Also determinism states that we have no free will. Which I agree with (You choose to do something but never choose to choose to do something). So nowone is ever fully acountable for their actions. So in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things, suicide doesn't matter. It's no different than a star collapsing in on itself. I wasn't trying to be mean but I'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions.
  2. pppqp

    pppqp Well-Known Member

    Suicide and religion, right? For me I choose to stay neutral (or at least think I am). Usually I don't express my opinions on what is supposed to happen after suicide or after death because nobody actually knows. But one thing I know for sure is that God is make-believe. So many evidences have already disproved his existence, and there are so many discrepancies which can easily be detected.
  3. peacelovingguy

    peacelovingguy Well-Known Member

    A star does not purposefully die - its reached the end of its existence in form and becomes something else. It cannot just deteriorate to 'nothing'. Sometimes humans don't see something and assume nothing is there.

    As for nihilism - forget it. Pushed to its ultimate conclusion - it is just a negative argument for students to have fun with. And sure - its an idea that kind of reverberates in us - because we are depressed and nihilism is like an explanation - so we'd sooner see the world blown up by a comet than even admit anyone actually had any fun out there.

    Or could have fun.

    Suicide matters more than star number 59383773 imploding a gazillion miles way.

    but if the sun imploded - well that would matter a lot.

    I guess the sun imploding would matter more than every suicide ever!

    but I'd dress up for the event - have some nice company - and implode with it - maybe smiling because a lot of people would suddenly 'get' what life was about - or what it could have BEEN about.

    Suicide is no stroll in the park. Its not easy if you have ever thought about it - let alone if you have thought about it often and persistently. It does tend to make all life affirming activities seem pointless.

    But - its a real good thing that you got others to point out that its just depression that makes things seem that way - you can find immense enjoyment and purpose in lots of things. just sorting a life out is hard but rewarding if you can at least face each day and not let it throw you to the floor or back to bed. Not easy - but we only live once and there are lots of great things you can actually do.

    Right now for me - bed is a great idea. WTF - its 6.30am. I'm up so early early - er, no, late!!!

    So gotta grab some rest - hope I don't dream of imploding stars!

    I got a few things to do - bad timing if the sun fries us all - or will we freeze as the imploding sun sucks the heat away?

    If that happens - why worry?

    See you later - and great questions - hope it continues to supply answers.

    Thanks Grimble
  4. BornAgain

    BornAgain Well-Known Member

    No philosopher, psychiatrist, psychologist, scientist, priest, pastor, judge, lawmaker, atheus, believer, has ever understood suicide, not one study can tell you if it's good or bad (no, the bible doesn't talk about it, it only says you shall not kill), no laws prohibit it (at least here in the US), as suicide is not killing or murdering, it is not a crime.

    I do believe in science (I say believe as not all scientific explanations are true or have been proven, they are mere theories that keep changing), but I also believe strongly in God, the big bang cannot be explained as something coming out of nothing as all matter is transformed according to science, intelligence, feelings and love are very hard to believe they are just a random chemical accident of nature.

    Anyway, this is my point of view but I respect any other point of view as everybody sees things differently, I do believe that I didn't die when my mother tried to abort me, when I crashed, poisoned, try to stabbed and burned myself because God didn't want me to die as he wanted me to take care of my children, there is no logical or scientific explanation, I was dead and now I am alive, I was hopeless and now I have all the hope in the world and I am at peace and loving life as I know God has the control and I don't have to worry or get frustrated.

    God bless you all
  5. AxiomUltimatum

    AxiomUltimatum Well-Known Member

    Try looking up and reading about materialsm. It could help you sort out (not get rid of but rather organise) you're existential nihilism. Specifically try reading up a bit on Hegel, Friedrich Engel and Karl Marx.

    Quick wiki link if it helps :
  6. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    I don't think Hegel was a materialist, but maybe I'm wrong. What parts of his writing lead you to conclude this? Or are you saying to read Hegel to get a better understanding of where materialism can be criticized?

    I do remember a quote (but unfortunately not its source) to the effect that to develop Dialectical Materialism Marx had to "stand Hegel on his head." which I've always taken to mean Hegelian Dialectics (which he called something else...damned if I can remember the term) existed in the realm ideas, not in any sort of material reality.
  7. AxiomUltimatum

    AxiomUltimatum Well-Known Member

    More or less. I always feel that to inforce an idea or belief, you must first be able to argue against it... or atleast try...

    I feel that some of materialisms core principles came from the fact that Hegel's dialects caused others to argue against it.

    Alvin platinga produced some interesting arguement's against where as Rene Decartes (sp?) would support.... just some idea's on further reading....
  8. johnnysays

    johnnysays Well-Known Member

    While I am not suicidal, I have struggled with the same thoughts. Struggled is the appropriate word.

    I've always thought I"m this way because I was a christian for 20 or 25 years of my 34. I lived for so long being able to rely on god. I could pray to feel better. Things had meaning. But I am agnostic now. I say "Fu** God!" in my mind and I no longer feel shame for doing so. For years now I have thought about our universe and the thoughts you mention have crossed my mind in different ways.

    Even though you say you want to die, I offer you my hand if you want to talk. I know that death is all around us, always. Death is such a hard thing to understand as an emotional being. But also that there's so much diversity in the world we live in. Many people see things differently than I do. If my conditions for determining sanity or rightness are A and someone else's are B then it's difficult for me to work with them in a consistent and constructive manner. Our world is filled with examples of this, like political idealogy or religion.

    God doesn't exist, to me. If someone offers me a prayer, that's meaningless to me. Even though I tell others that meaning is created by us, I am not altogether sure what meaning is. I've always tried to be optimistic, but I think the end result is functionally neurotic instead. I want a way to wrap up all of this, to sum it up, to end any bad feelings, but this world we live in is inevitably more complicated than anything I can resolve. So it's the usual course that I hit a wall and try to climb it just to find another.

    Watch this:

    Picture yourself caught in the waves. Teh cosmic sea. Drawn out and spread thin across the universe. Particles and waves that propogate across fathomless space and time and dimensions unseen out far beyond what we know. When that happens, it's hard to imagine meaning or to see anything familiar. Emotions and attachments are just gone. Maybe meaning isn't in understanding the universe as much as it's keeping our soul together well enough to focus and not be lost to the endless cosmic ocean that will swallow us if we let it. And when we're gone, like this video points out, we're gone forever. Just like dust or a cosmic ray that passed by into the blank carpet of stars. Teh stars are inside us and outside too. We came from them and will go back. We're the universe. We're also ourselves. We're our feelings and our memories. If we forget that we're also humans with feelings and memories, then there's little to keep us here.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2011
  9. johnnysays

    johnnysays Well-Known Member

    I don't think it's inherently nihilist to deny free will or to deny absolute right or wrong or to deny god. Instead, I think it's nihilist to decide for OTHERS what is and is not to be. THAT is when you have become a menace to the world and deserve to be called nihilist.

    I'd like to say that after making my previous post, the movie Altered States came to mind. Years ago, I remember watching it late at night. It was creepy, probably because the room was dark. The last scene in the movie it was scared me so badly. It wasn't that he turned into a monster. It was the despair at knowing that truth is transitory and that it's WE that are truth. WE are the frame of reference that gives everything meaning. Back then I was still somewhat religious. It scared me because it excluded god. And if we're the source of meaning then that's pitiful. There's so much suffering and meaningless killing on our planet. It's a sad, ugly thought.

    This film is made for the mainstream. It's not much different from anti-drug films or propaganda. But there's some meaning underneath everything. But meaning is different from one person to another dependent on their conditions they use to judge things.

    It's on youtube, not sure for how long:
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2011
  10. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    'Existential nihilism'

    My view is becoming that a large part of much mental illness and trauma is in fact a reaction to anxiety. That includes depression. I think people get depressed because they are anxious and can't deal with their anxieties - and depression is a form of a coping mechanism (a negative one) to deal with that. I think the same for stress - it comes from anxiety. The same (more obviously) for neurosis and other OCD forms of illness. Even schizophrenia I think could have its origin in a deep form of anxiety in the way of perceiving and dealing with the world - leading to a psychotic "break" from that perception.

    That being the case, I don't believe existential nihilism is a natural cause for suicide. If someone was TRULY nihilistic then I think they wouldn't care whether they were alive or dead and the default position is to be alive, so they would remain that way until the situation was changed for them (and they died due to outside forces). True nihilism seems closer to a Buddhist form of complete non-attachment .... and acceptance of the way things are - of all experiences without attaching a label of positive or negative to them, without an expectation that they should or could or would be 'better' if different. True nihilism seems almost the polar opposite of being suicidal. If you are suicidal it is because you DO care!

    I think what you are suffering from is not a type of existential nihilism but a deep anxiety --- and those who recover from suicidal tendencies are probably those who have the courage and insight to try to analyse and overcome those deep anxieties.
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