Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by youRprecious!, Mar 15, 2013.

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  1. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    My previous thread having been terminated, my next serious topic needs to be about God, as there was more I wanted to write but was derailed from returning yesterday (due to a medical emergency with my 90 year old stepfather).

    Princ's Belt said that it is an extension of hate to deny people the right to do what they want (or words to that effect - I stand to be corrected if I have misrepresented this due to inadequate recall).

    But does a parent tell their children "Don't play with fire/Don't run into the road ..... etc." out of hate, or love?

    It's a (seemingly) unfortunate fact of our existence that there are boundaries in place for our safety. Not only physical boundaries either.

    The child may yell and scream "But it isn't fair!!" (As I did when I saw my previous thread had been closed, lol!)

    Is that going to change the parents' mind? (As regards the fire and the road - I understand the reasons behind closing the thread. Admin parents thought best).
  2. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Are you serious? The context was that homosexuals do deserve the same civil rights and protection under laws as everyone else. Not people being able to "do whatever they want" as if I support people being able to get away with rape or murder for example. The last thread you made was closed for a good reason. Stop.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
  3. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    OK - I apologise for the misrepresentation. I should have gone back to check on the exact wording. Let's try again

    "Any unjust act towards another for the purpose of unreasonable discrimination, is an extension of hate. I'm strongly in favor of anyone marrying whoever and whatever they want if it's consensual. The fact that people are still debating something simple such as the definitions of marriage is completely ludicrous to me."

    If the definition of marriage is so simple - why had the human race got it wrong since the beginning of time?

    "Marrying whoever and whatever they want"..... It was the "they want" that I was referring to. It is too easy to think the boundaries have now been changed because the "wanting" has been lobbied enough to turn it into an assumed right. And just by adding 'civil' to it doesn't change the underlying principle.

    And I propose that what you mean PB by "unreasonable discrimination" is not actually unreasonable at all, when there are very good reasons for the wise discernment involved.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
  4. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    The concept of Marriage that humanity has universally accepted since the beginning of time has actually been raped, if not murdered psychologically in the minds of those who understand the protective boundary lines and why they were there.

    But now I have thoroughly confused these 2 threads, if the first one has been opened again. I am sorry to Admin for the confusion caused.
  5. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    The truth is that God loves all of his creation. He loves all people. He loves the people who believe that they were born homosexual as much as he loves people who do not believe they were born homosexual.

    Perhaps this is a better foundation on which to start my thread about God.

    The concept we hold about God determines the rest. We can leave sexuality out of it then (as it belonged to the other thread) - but the same principle applies to every area of our humanity.

    It all kicks off with the question: "Do I want to believe in God or not?" - and I am sure that everyone has thought that question within themselves at some point in their lives.

    Unfortunately, on volatile issues where God has drawn boundary lines for our protection, these can be the tipping point which influences the answer to that question.

    People become polarised. As Jesus himself said: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matt.10 v34) ....... But that isn't the end of the story by any means, just the effect that his ministry would have on the generations that followed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
  6. justMe7

    justMe7 Well-Known Member

    Are we discussing God as in the existence of? Or is this a thread mutally for people who believe in God?
  7. Freya

    Freya Loves SF Staff Member ADMIN

    I have read both threads and I did not see any place that UrPrecious said she hated gay people.

    Unfortunately the boundary lines that are there "for our protection"

    a) Were written by humans - the bible, whether or not you believe it is God's message, is a human recounting of events and conversations - endless interpretations of wording later, people still cannot agree what it means and besides which it is very much "he said that he said ...." which has never been especially reliable.
    b) Include things that are almost universally agreed to be ludicrous. The bible at various points forbids such things as eating shellfish, wearing garments woven of a mixture of wool and linen, shave/cut your hair... I know a lot of Christians. I do not know any who abide by these rules.

    Whether or not the bible is the word of God is not my place to say. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. Whether or not the rules within it were there for good reason 2000+ years ago, I do not know. My history is not extensively enough researched. What I do know is that society has moved on significantly over the course of 2000 years. Things change. Rules that may have been applicable 2000 years ago are outdated.

    If you believe in the bible, and are determined to consider it the word of God and live your life according to the boundaries as you interpret them, that is entirely your call. Equally if you are Muslim and choose not to drink alcohol or eat pork - that also is your call. If you choose to have sex before marriage, if you choose to accept your inclination to love, emotionally and physically, someone of the same gender as you are, if you choose to wear woolen/linen blends - that is your call.

    The question is not at all whether you want or choose to believe in God. I neither want nor choose to believe in God - I simply do. I believe in God. I do not believe I need a 2000 year old book written by various people long long after the supposed events or conversations it recounts in order to live my life in a way that is healthy, safe or morally acceptable.

    I do believe that if Jesus wanted to leave instructions for people to follow thousands of years into the future, he would have written the darned book himself.

    Things like playing with fire or running into the road have concrete unambiguous consequences (you get burnt/you get smooshed by a moving vehicle). I am less sure of the obvious consequences of things like sex before marriage, laying with a woman whilst she is menstruating, cutting your hair or any of the other things that are warned against in the bible. I do not think these things are comparable.

    Things change - and rightly so. Women are no longer property and have equal rights to men. People of different ethnicity are equal in the eyes of the law in the vast majority of developed countries. Kings and Queens (long considered appointed by God) no longer have the right to lop off people's heads. You are now allowed to divorce the man or woman who is beating ten shades of shit out of you on a daily basis. Things change. And so they should.

    Of course children should be protected - from harm - taught to make morally sound decisions. A morally sound decision is a personal choice. I believe in educating a child to THINK and to OBSERVE and to DECIDE for themselves. If what you observe is, for example, two responsible adults who love each other, respect each other, support each other and choose to conduct a relationship - is that image of love, respect, acceptance and support suddenly damaging because both people are male or both are female? Is it suddenly 'wrong' - more 'wrong' than the man and woman who curse at each other, intentionally hurt each other, constantly break up and get back together? I do not think so. Further - I do not believe God thinks so.

    if God disapproves of the choices I make - if He wants to 'tell' me something or deliver a message - I am entirely certain He does not need a centuries old second hand account of ambiguous statements made in conversation to do so.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
  8. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Actually, He doesn't. Like I said, he loves people who believe they were born homosexual as much as he loves everyone else. It's a gross misrepresentation to believe that Christians believe God hates people who believe they were born homosexual.

    I would never use the word fag to describe any person who God loves. I choose not to resent your comment, though understand why you make it.

    Here's a new thought: have you ever tried to understand the difference between a person and the person's behaviour? Because there is one - a very great difference. It's how God views humanity

    Homophobe, homophobia, homophobic are dished out to people who think differently than yourself. So it seems there is one rule for one side, and no rules for the other.
  9. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    I started the thread hoping to explain or shed some light on the subject of God - in particular hoping to address (or try to) any genuine query regarding the subject. For those who already believe, their input will be just as welcome, I am sure I cannot be the only believer on SF. I have no wish to turn it into a mutual believer's only thread, I couldn't see the point in doing that.

    But I realise that God is a mysterious subject for many - I have struggled with God in many respects all my life, but that's because I'm human with a mind which is rebellious as well as curious, and still wants to know the reason we're all here, what life is all about and where we go when we die. Not a personal morality, I've gotten as far as the realisation that God is primarily transcendent, but wishes to become immanent also ("God with us") Isaiah 7.
  10. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Thank you Freya for your reply. a) The Bible was physically produced by human beings yes, over a period of at least 4,000 years, on 3 different continents. Lots of different people being guided by the same Spirit, with a uniting theme. I could never dismiss the Bible as a man-made book because of the prophetic element and the way in which it describes our anthropology and the human heart. I hope you won't mind if I include some verses which help explain this: 2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness .." 1 Peter 10: "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greates care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of christ in them was pointing when he predicted the suffering of Christ and the glories that would follow."
    b) all the ludicrous things were written to the Hebrew nation 4,000 years ago because of the dispensation they were under. They make no sense to us today as rules to follow, and I thank God for that! God as God of history planned the dispensations in respect of the maturing and development of the human race.

    I will come back later, as soon as I can to respond to your other points. :)
  11. Raven

    Raven Guest

    The idea of God rests on faith, it says that believing something without evidence in of itself makes you a better person, this is an absurd assumption. All the blood that was spilled, all the people that have suffered, because God will simply not come down and correct us on what is the correct religion, this is the conundrum of the theist. Why does God demand faith? If so he endowed us with reason, thought, the ability to explore and question our world. Why demand blind faith, why not give us proof, what does it really change in our day to day lives? Religion came from out past back when we did not have the answers, we did not know why it rained, why the stars moved, we have some such a long way but the idea of death and eternal non-existence scares us so, and I do not believe it is that we are gone but that the ones we loved are truly no longer in existence and will never be again.

    When it comes to morality, we have moved far beyond what the religions of the world has told us, we have evolved in a since our morality, we begin to understand trough empathy right and wrong and we begin to further remove ourselves from what religion once told us was correct. The only time we really need God is oppress others, it gives us an authority we believe is beyond man and we can show our hatreds.

    No one really follows the teaching of an old Jewish apocalyptic priest. We take what we want and we through the rest away, what where the teachings of Christ, Don’t judge, Love they Neighbor and father (we won’t go into some of the other things he said) Take care of the poor, that is not what the religion is today, it is about power, in the here and know where it matters.

    Really it calls comes down to this,
    [FONT=&quot]“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” [/FONT]
    Marcus Aurelius, Meditations [/FONT]

    Faith is not needed, belief is not needed, following tenets, eating crackers drinking wine praying it’s all bullshit. Just be a good person.


    And a link to Mr. Hitchens, just because he was so awesome.
  12. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Just read the first 2 sentences Raven, and am excited about replying. Haven't got much time so, as per promise to Freya to get back, will just rush something off for now............

    No, actually there's nowhere that says believing something without evidence makes you a better person. I agree such an assumption is totally absurd. To be honest, I went through a time where I became hated and evil because of crap that went down at church - and became a far worse person than I would ever have been had I decided to live life as an agnostic or atheist. But don't judge me for that and say that proves it's all a nonsense, because (the exact details are not known to you and) God didn't leave me in the place I had gotten to - because His power is always for redemption, and because of this I was able to be rescued. All by his grace when I had given myself up for worse than dead.

    So believing something with no evidence is nuts. It depends, of course on what means by evidence. One person's meaning of the evidence required to start believing will differ from another's. If God somehow managed to write in blazing letters in the sky "God exists, I am He" there would be those who still would not believe. And it's a growing thing, individually tailored. We start off from the desire to believe first of all, and it grows from there - precept upon precept, always by faith of course, and onlookers would say blind faith - but with the eyes of faith we come into awareness of the things which are unseen.

    I agree, the atrocities committed in the name of God totally misrepresent his character. But there has been countless more bloodshed through history because of political power lusts and ideologies. Humanity is helpless on its own to be good, and I totally admit (because I've been one) that there are "Christians" who fail very badly also. The truth of it is, God simply has "come down" - but is not robotic or authoritarian as is a common expectation.
    If there are gods that are unjust, I agree with Marcus. People try on their own to live virtuous lives, but - this is where the rubber hits the road and offends many - "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God". The main question I want to answer in a hope of explaining this is: "Why does God demand faith?" - firstly to "why not give us proof?" is because if God could be "proved" text-book style, we wouldn't need to believe. It's coming to understand why faith as (for us) the New Testament explains it is the requirement.

    And that will be a long post for me to take time to produce - I don't want to make a hash of it by trying to do it in a hurry :)
  13. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    No, I didn't use any form of "phobe"; I said bigot. It's not a phobia, you're not afraid of them, you dislike them and you believe exercising prejudice against them in the form of legal exclusion is legitimate, and use your pitiful excuse of a so-called god as a shield you think would protect such a flimsy belief. It's not because your opinion is different, it's because your opinion is dangerous and supports actions that threaten the ability of others to live peaceably within society simply because their harmless lifestyle of being attracted to others of their same gender is something repulsive to you. It has nothing to do with your opinion merely being different.

    A person's behavior is part of the person. One kind of behavior is attraction - sexual orientation. You're saying people who are homosexual should stop being homosexual. Why? Because you see it as wrong, defective, a plague, something that needs to be "cured" like a disease; that said behavior is not "God's will." Did it never occur to you that if there were a god and it were omniscient and omnipotent, and loving as you say, then there would be nothing notable about people being gay or lesbian or transgender or bisexual, because such a god would have set them in that path to begin with?

    And just to reiterate what Raven said, it's more effective to be a good person because it's the right thing to do, rather than thump on a bible trying to justify ill treatment of others.
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  14. NYJmpMaster

    NYJmpMaster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    This is where the miss-connect comes for me-- so it was all thoughtfully produced by divinely guided humans EXCEPT those silly pieces the Hebrews added?...which thankfully have been determined to be wrong? Some might point to this as slightly bigoted attitude as well... and would seem to cast a pall on the entire old testament (and in fact since most believe Jesus was Hebrew it would throw far more into question) - unless as has been shown over the centuries it is all routinely rewritten (though despite the 4000 years none is really documented before the 11th or 12th century) to the benefit of the people in power and their beliefs of that given time period.

    The most popular translation of the bible today was a rewrite and translation produced in the 1600's - the King James version. This is of particular interest since King James was known undeniably to be a homosexual. Further - the church performed gay marriages up until the 18th century. There are two Saints known to be have been gay with many mentions of it in different texts from different countries/regions (including their own). Many christian sects do gay marriages still to this day, gay marriage was common for 15 centuries and only became truly frowned upon beginning in the 17th centuries. Up until that point it was declared right or wrong by whim of the ruler of different regions (who each rewrote or re interpreted the bible to make it support their personal beliefs).

    I would however say the point of in respect of the maturing development of the human race- may be of some worth though it is not a quote from the bible- hopefully part of that "maturing process" is to see that other things people use scripture to justify are equally ridiculous in a more mature human race - like the topic of the previous thread .... In this particular point it is not maturing however - it is accepting what was openly accepted for centuries and centuries and set aside by "divinely guided humans" as wrong simple because they personally did not like it in very recent history (the last 300 years or so). It is also commonly known as to why in different periods it was frowned upon - it was the procreation argument - but it was because the righteous and divine leaders doing that rewrite needed more soldiers for wars so they really pushed the pro-creation angle as a method of getting more soldiers to better fight wars (all of the early christian Romans ans all of the crusades when the people used the bible to justify massacres and attempted genocides and rewrote passages to support that- some of which are the earliest written records verify the mere existence of the bible).

    Humans interpreting the bible do not need to mature - they need simply look to centuries of tolerance and acceptance and realize the interpretation they are thumping is very recent in terms of history and reflective of a culture in a period of decay rather then enlightenment.
  15. 1112222

    1112222 Well-Known Member

    Then explain that why throughout history in many cultures the main form of marriage was one man and several wives.

    Bullshit, discrimination is unreasonable no matter how you try to justify it. Give us these very good reasons why a section of society should not have the same rights they everyone else has????

    But really the main issue here isn't your belief in a god its how you believe that your belief in a god should infringe upon the rights of others.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2013
  16. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    To Raven -
    The material/physical world of the 5 senses says: “Seeing is believing” – but the reason our experience of God needs to rest on faith, is that He says “Believing is seeing”. This is it in a nutshell, the bottom line.
    Obviously, there is a path to travel before a human heart is willing to agree to this, as it seems too peculiar if we haven’t been raised with something of an understanding of it.
    So, why does God insist on his way over what seems right to us? As desirous as He is of relationship with us his creatures, why does He seem to have made it so impossible, to the point where so many just cannot be bothered?
    Those who know the answer to this are thrown back onto what He has revealed. That is enough to turn many off before reaching “Go”. No human brain could have dreamed the process of redemption up, because the power simply would not have been there to carry it out.
    The thing about the Bible and the charge against it of solely human origin is quite simply: If mankind could have written it, it wouldn’t have, and if mankind would have written it, it couldn’t have.
    If people had written it without divine overseeing authorship there would not have been the power behind it at all to accomplish what it reveals, and if it was all an incredible conspiracy concocted over 4,000 years by at least 40 different persons (I forget the exact number) – no one in their right mind would have written something pertaining to be of God and yet giving him such a bad press.
    I have to stop here, out for the day, but just wanted to start off my response as promised. I’m not sure but it might be answering something for Freya too. Sorry not much time to get back properly till tomorrow.
  17. dvnj22

    dvnj22 Well-Known Member

    There is a divine presence all around, one does not have to look very far - we call it "god", but that is just the human word for it, just as we call gravity, gravity. But it has always existed without our so called discovery of it. Atheists feel this presence as well and if they are good, then they too are worshipping it. Everything is connected. Take for example humans - we are all related in a sense. Look to nature not to clergy, you find your answers for nature is gods living creation, the clergy is man's, don't not close yourself to the church bells, do not close your eyes to the pillar of fire set before you, do not shut your ears to the gospel he is preaching to you everyday. Because of breaking away from the opium of mankind many have shut themselves and the minds. Remember that people are just putting words on things they see and feel. Grasp
    this transcendent presence - the same way you do when you look at art.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2013
  18. Raven

    Raven Guest

    Yes mankind could have written the bible, you must yourself believe this when you dismiss all of the other religious texts, the book of Mormon, the Koran, I could name many others who have written works like that of the bible. I find it strange that all the different religions exist, again why would God who has revealed himself simply not give us concert proof? Why do we have all the billions upon billions of starts and galaxy’s? I think this video is awe inspiring of the galaxy we live in, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw

    Why would we have all of this if the entire universe was created simply for us? How about some meat to the hard questions, why would a God create us mortal to live out our lives here and then condemn us on such flimsy things, that we must believe in him? This is vanity, that we must adhere to a code of laws that we ourselves would no longer follow slavery, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, genocide, mass murder. That only trough vicarious redemption could God allow himself to forgive us. We have grown far beyond the morality of the biblical God.

    I hate religion for what it is, it is a hammer used to oppress people, it is incepted in its wickedness that tells people they are not allowed to uses condoms to stop the spread of aids in third world countries. Telling us that someone should be put to death for who they love, that tells us we are born wicked and evil with no hope of redemption, I myself hold far more hope that mankind is moving forward, that we are slowly becoming something of an evolved species.

    If people want to believe something fine, but when it is used to harm others, to condemn others, to oppress others I find it well worth my time to speak out against it, and the Abrahamic religions I despise, they are used only for power in the here and now the only world that really matters.

    I am going to say something that will confuse you know, go and read your bible, and not just read it but compare it. Read the Gospels, right next to each other, and compare them, you will find that they are all different, and different in ways that really the authors should have gotten right.

    And Because I love links listen to Bart Ehrman


    And to anyone that says God hates Gays


    At least in hell I will be with the people I admire.
  19. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    This is the 2nd part of what I started this morning, copied from a Word doc) - but before I paste it, I know the Gospels have their differences - but that doesn't diminish their genuineness. They were eye-witness accounts from 4 different people which means there would be slight differences as no 2 people see things from exactly the same perspective. You're taking a "The Bible should be an infalliable text-book" approach - when it doesn't have to meet that criteria.

    To continue then with ‘Why faith?’ I googled it, and the internet page didn’t appear – my internet must be at fault because it took ages to get into SF this morning. (I was hoping to find a précis of the Biblical account, to save me attempting it with my own words, as I’m feeling time-pressured.)
    But this is my understanding taken from the Scriptures. Isaiah 14:12-15 and Luke 10:18 give an account of the fall of Lucifer due to the conflation of his ego and ambition to ascend to 1[SUP]st[/SUP] place in the universe. The number one attitude which God hates is pride, because of its power to distort reality in its various ways, if not discerned and dropped.
    It is when people run into trouble that they are confronted with choices. “Do I seek God’s counsel or guidance, or will I try to sort this out by myself? etc.” If the choice is to seek God, Scripture shows us the way, but we have to be willing to forsake our pride which is akin to a rebellious attitude. Once we are motivated to seek God we come to understand the next step of the process which is that God resists the proud but gives His grace to the humble (James 4:6). Our pride and God’s grace cannot co-exist in the same heart.
    Because God is a gentleman He will not invade a human soul or personality without permission. We need to give Him an invitation, on the understanding that we are permitting Him to give us new spiritual life, which requires our faith (trust) that He will fulfil for us what He promises (present/continuous tense) in His Word.
    Ephesians 2:8,9 explains “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no-one can boast.”


    It is people with egos who oppress, dominate etc. Is this what God does? No - but people do. Of course there have been religious despots who use religion to further their own agenda. This does not mean that God does not exist, neither that He hasn't provided the remedy for our reconciliation.
  20. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Polygamy as compared to monogamy. I would really love to know the stats. Upholding polygamy (as per your comment) is another way of demoting monogamy. Polygamy exists still among Mormons - I do not understand their justification, unless taken from an Old Testament understanding - but historically it would have had at least something to do with the common occurrence of death in childbirth and a more urgent need to procreate for population purposes. It is not the NT model for matrimony.

    "Discrimination" is a word of choice. I prefer to use the word discernment, understanding the reasons why wise discernment is essential, and not a knee-jerk reaction.
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