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Goddamnit! Suicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by ToHelp, Sep 22, 2008.

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  1. ToHelp

    ToHelp Well-Known Member

    I just a had convo yesterday on here with someone (I really can't find it and it's probably for the best, as this is not the debate forum proper) who was intractibly vehement that:

    "Self is selfish! It's the COWARD'S way out."

    Oh man, you don't know how that thinking gates me these days. Like NEVER before.

    Please see my post on this page which sums things up.

  2. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    I'd have to say almost any behavior can be selfish under the right circumstances, from giving millions to charity to suicide to posting at Suicide Forum to whatever. But I'm also of the opinion that almost any behavior can be altruistic under the right circumstances, too. And that includes suicide. But you have to look to the motive of the action, both yours and others.

    The problem with suicide, if you will, is also its greatest benefit: it takes you out of the rigged game cobbled together by the Demiurge that is this filthy life, so that if it is done right there will be no further actions and no possibilty of correction, should you have made a mistake.

    So, I guess the above is a roundabout way of saying that I agree with you to a point, but also disagree with how far your thinking has gone.
  3. bleach

    bleach Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    I disagree, it is selfish and cowardly in nearly every circumstance. Really how could it be otherwise?
  4. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    It is a matter of motive. Here is one example, and I can think of many others: If someone believes, truly believes, that their death would either be neutral or a net positive for anyone who might be acquainted with them, then that I would have to say is not cowardice. They might be mistaken in their belief, I will grant, but their motive is neither selfish nor cowardly.

    You're attempting to take something that is self-evident to you and universalize it. Quite frankly, since you're the one holding to this position the burden of proof is on you to prove your point, not on me or anyone else to attempt to answer this question.
  5. abyss

    abyss Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    i think to most people struggling with the idea of taking themselves out of the equation it is neither cowardly nor selfish. but for many of those with suicidal ideations the thinking is a bit warped by the pain, or the emptiness, or whathaveyou. i think the selfish and cowardly label is primarily one seen by those who are left behind. most don't agree that they are better off, most don't want to be without the person they lost. to them, left behind to pick up the pieces and hold together a life broken it is a very different picture.

    i don't think that most would see their own death as a loss to others, most probably feel it would profit the world to be without them, but ultimately that is only half the story and thus half the truth.
  6. Dave_N

    Dave_N Guest

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    Suicide is cowardly because instead of facing your problems and dealing with them, you quit by ending your life. Granted that it takes bravery to take one's life, but it's still a cowardly action. Suicide is selfish from the family's perspective. They are left grieving for the loss of the family member.
  7. Oceans

    Oceans Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    There will always be some people out there and in here who believe suicide is a selfish act.
  8. jam1e

    jam1e Guest

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    I feel suicidal quite often , and have made a couple of serious attempts in the past.

    Now i'm abit better i can see the only thing that stops me now is the thought of the effect it would have on my children.

    My father died of a stroke when i was 11 and it had a bad effect on me, yet i didn't realise this until i was an adult.

    I dread to think what it would be like for my son and daughter if i took my own life!!:sad:
  9. itmahanh

    itmahanh Senior Member & Antiquities Friend

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    Instead of people labelling others as selfish or cowardly why cant they see the pain that is causing someone to be suicidal in the first place and try and help? Now that is the true definition of selfish and cowardly in my eyes! Ready to label and walk away rather than put some effort into helping another. And just a random thought but.... why is it so "wrong" by society for an individual to feel and act upon suicidal feelings and thoughts, but yet almost every new song to come out these days are so dark and suggestive? And they are making fistfuls of $ from those songs that suicidal people are listening to? But yet the people that are buying those albums are looked down upon by society and these bands and groups are called "great". Hmmmm.
  10. bleach

    bleach Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    It is not only a matter of motive. One's perspective can be selfish just as one's motive can be. A depressed perspective is selfish because it projects your own warped opinion of yourself as absolute truth when in fact it isn't. Emotional reasoning is always selfish(I feel this is true, so it must be so...), and I've never seen a suicidal person reason without emotion. Not yet anyway.

    FWIW I don't think selfish is a pejorative either. It's simply the way we are. Nature abhors selflessness because life is competitive and the truly selfless would always be at a disadvantage. Suicidal people are no more or less selfish than anyone else is. But unlike 'normal' people, suicidals are largely conditioned to hate their own nature. Cowardice is not necessarily a bad thing either, depending on the situation.
  11. bleach

    bleach Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    I made a thread about that sort of attitude before. the consensus opinion was that most people either don't understand what you are going through, or have had negative experiences with depressive people (including themselves in some cases) and they project the pain and anger from those earlier experiences onto all people with depression/suicidal thoughts.
  12. ToHelp

    ToHelp Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    So true, and you know, for months after I settled in on this forum, I was amongst that same crowd who proclaimed from the rooftops that Suicide is the most selfish act a human being can commit.

    I truly believed it.

    Then... I began to read of people's intractable emotional trauma, leaving behind scars that wouldn't go away.

    I also saw this:

    See, I saw that and gradually came to know people here who SUFFERED daily, tormented by trauma that no pill and no amount of therapy could assuage.

    And so, I was really shocked the other day to read this self-righteous person claiming, "OF COURSE it is selfish." And having the gall, nay the pig-headedness, to say people who idealized or actually committed did so because they were COWARDS.

    My Lord man. I don't see how someone can in good conscious live with saying those things--unless they themselvers are not in as much pain as those they presume to judge.

    I remember first falling into my own pit of dispair at which time I came to understand the ignorance and cruelty of calling suicidal people selfish and of cowardessly.

    Geez, said I. Walk a few good few miles in our shoes. You would then see how self-deliverance can seem logical, intelligent, and wholely justifiable.

    I stand by my declaration that the act is innate abomination to nature. The difference though, is now I also see why the uniquely accursed homo sapien--who can reason, question, cogitate and understand what it is to be sexually repeatedly vioalated or simply be an outcast in society can rationally choose not to endure unending unhappenness, or daily dispare

  13. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    For determining if an act is selfish or not? It most certainly is. Or, to put it another way, if an act is motivated by selfishness it is a selfish act. I mean, really, which part of that tautology is eluding you?

    I agree. But since this has nothing to do with matter under discussion, I fail to see its relevance.

    This is a gross oversimplificiation. A depressed person may have a warped opinion of themselves, but there is nothing to say that this is the case in the entire set of those who are depressed.. It is akin to saying that "Because all Labrador Retrievers are dogs, therefore all dogs are Labrador Retrievers."

    Have you ever seen any person who does not make ANY important decision with including at least an element of emotion? From taking a job, picking a major in college, falling in love or relocating to a different city? Seems to me that you're making a valid point, but one that, again, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, by virtue of simply being part of the human condition.

    So I guess you agree witth the statement in the opening post then? If perhaps with a slight modification to say, "Sure, suicide is a selfish act, but then so is just about any other act a person can engage in."

    What on earth does this mean? I honestly have no idea.

    Interesting perspective. But to return to your original post on this thread:

    should we read this to say that neither selfishness nor cowardice really all that bad, at least sometimes, therefore in your view neither is suicide, at least sometimes?
  14. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    This thread didn't start off in the soap box, did it? :blink:
  15. pit

    pit Well-Known Member

    Doctors who force you to stay alive when you are terminal are selfish, because they want the $$$.
  16. Eric

    Eric Well-Known Member


    One particular line that caught my attention though as I scrolled down:

    I beg to differ, suicide is a choice taken when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.

    It never is (I'm not implying you said it, mind you, just stating it myself) the best choice and it never will be.

    Cowardly way out? Depends on the point of view, really. On one hand, you have an unwilling and unstable person who can't deal with anything anymore and feels like it's the only way out. On the other hand, you have a a weak person who refuses to keep on fighting, just like everybody does. It takes strength to continue that fight and, as SF tries to prove, resources are unlimited, since there's always people willing to help, regardless of the method. Giving up, in a way, is a refusal to continue fighting.

    Selfish way out? Depends on the point of view as well. On one hand, you have the lonely, misanthropic person who has nobody but himself/herself. On the other hand, you have the person who knows a lot of people, and even though he/she doesn't realize it, some still love them and support them (Ah Christ, people should really say "Thanks for being part of my life" more often, yes?). By committing suicide, the person ignores all possible pain his/her family/friends will feel, instead thinking only about himself/herself. That can be considered selfish.

    So really, there's two sides of the coin and it depends on the point of view and circumstance. In my more naive days, I would have blatantly said it's selfish and cowardly, but that's changed.
  17. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Re: the "cowardice is not always bad" statement, the very definition of "cowardice" is negative. "Fear" on the other hand, is not always bad.

    Cowardice: n. Want of courage to face danger; extreme timidity;
    pusillanimity; base fear of danger or hurt; lack of spirit.

    Thus, cowardice is an extreme emotion and not a desirable one at that. Cowardice is the unwillingness to withstand something unpleasant no matter how necessary it may be.

    Fear though, may often be rational and completely founded.

    You can have fear without cowardice, because even tremendous acts of bravery in war generally have some form of fear involved. The coward will crouch in a hole and refuse to do the noble thing, whereas the brave one will be afraid and still do the right thing. Therein lies the difference.

    And generally, yes, suicide is selfish. Almost no-one can commit suicide in a vacuum, meaning that one who commits suicide is almost always doing what they choose to do as a result of self-interest, or ending their OWN pain, regardless of the pain it will cause others.

    Selfishness: n. Selfishness denotes the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others. Selfishness is the opposite of altruism.
  18. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    ever thought of being a therapist? you certainly have the Marquis De
    Sade bedside manner down to a fine art :biggrin:

    you could make it a sort of department store kind of little of
    everything "Mondo Bondo Psycho Babble and InsPRiational Books By
    Dave Emporium" sort of place. a beer and wine liscence couldn't hurt.
    liquor liscence would be cool, but really expensive, not that easy to
    come by.

    [authors footnote: all mispelled wurds for an intentionallyist mispelled to make
    further editorial comment on the one dimensional poiNty headedness of the post
    to which I IZ responding. thankyou. this has been a recording.]
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2008
  19. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    "Nevermind" :blink:

    Emily Litella
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2008
  20. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    Re: Goddamnit! Ssuicide is NOT "selfish"! Can we PLEASE dispense with this!!???

    how the hell would you know? or me? we're both here, alive and kickin.
    you know every thought in every mind and every feeling in every heart
    of every person ever anywhere in the world at anytime who ever was so
    bad off that they took the ultimate bad route and ended their own life?

    you must.

    well, you said say 'nearly' so, I need to lighten up. sorry :rolleyes:

    'nearly' technically means NOT EVERY SINGLE TIME and hence opens
    the door to possibilities of ...everything from "nearly every circumstance"
    to never once ever in the history of the human race since Moses was a corporal.

    people are bashing the OP here. I agree with said OP that it is
    nothing short of idiotic to assess all thought of suicide or very
    regrettable events of successful attempts as cowardly. it is stupid
    to say that. and it is counter productive to the point of being highly offensive.
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