God's/Allah's Gift

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Twocky61, May 30, 2014.

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  1. Twocky61

    Twocky61 Banned Member

    I wonder if any of you feel you are being ungrateful to God/Allah for having suicidal thoughts or through your self harming

    Life is apparently a gift from God/Allah along with our free will and conscious thought

    So by having suicidal urges or self harming are we being ungrateful for that gift of life?

    I am religious to a point though I am not a member of any recognised church. I believe we can all worsdhip God/Allah at home or anywhere on our own without the need of a religion/church

    Also who believes they will go to hell if they commit suicide? I believe hell (as is heaven/nirvana) is a mythical relative place just like the enchanted forest
  2. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Guest

    Perhaps not ungrateful to deity, but one need not look to the other side to discover what people who commit suicide were ungrateful toward—usually meaning the people who had been around them in life. But gratitude and gifts are social conventions anyway. The conventional account for it is that when someone helps you, you "owe" them a favor and that little feeling of "gratefulness" helps motivate you to repay it later.

    I avoided saying directly that it's family and friends you would be ungrateful toward—the suicidal personalities will all jump back with the retort that they had no family or friends. And sometimes that's true—there are abusive homes.

    The most troubling question OP raises is whether mere thoughts, as opposed to concrete deed, suffice to bring down the wrath of god. My own opinion is no, you have to do something to be guilty. Cutting is a deed, however—yet look in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and you see that Re, the sun god, was a cutter at one point (Spell 17).

    If discussion or philosophy is invited on this thread, I suggest narrowing the topic a bit—many tough side issues pop up such as free will, nature of the afterlife if any, and personal exchanges with a god—like gifts of life and punishment in hell—versus impersonal gods who may not care. See, gratitude turns out more complicated than we thought, if all this additional baggage is needed to explain it.

    I can't answer regarding what religious doctrines say about these issues. Most religions don't like suicide, which makes the "martyrdom operations" in the Middle East hard to understand, although clerics can redefine them as acts of war, and it's always honorable to fall in battle. Modern psychology, taking an atheistic viewpoint, considers "free will" as an illusion manufactured by the brain. This comes from Freud, and from lab experiments showing the brain starts processing a volunteer's decision to reach for a glass of soda a couple seconds before the volunteer was aware of wanting to do so.
    Last edited: May 30, 2014
  3. Terry

    Terry Antiquities Friend Staff Alumni

    If we forgive, understand, mental misery, illness etc. then surely God would.
    Sometimes I think we make God less by our turning him into a wrathful, unforgiving megalomaniac.
  4. demuredawn

    demuredawn Well-Known Member

    I don't consider it ungratefulness, I consider it being human... even the bible says we will all fall short of the glory of God. I do believe in both heaven and hell but I do not believe you will automatically go to hell if you commit suicide because I believe that when you become saved God knows the sins you have committed, are committing, and will commit and forgives you for all those things... he only wants you to pray for those things you are aware you have done to show your submission to his will, if you are already dead you cannot technically be aware you have committed a sin and it is possible to pray for forgiveness before you commit the act. I too do not believe in religion as I believe religion involves man's ideas/rules being combined/attributed to God's and since the bible says not to add to or take from it I do not believe that to be a correct teaching.
  5. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    Why I am doubtful any of these deities exist in any meaningful way is simply, that they have trusted man in the first place. Man who shits in their own water, cuts down the lungs of the world. Man who can't even agree within their own holy texts and kill one another over it. Trusted by what ever deity to interpret these so called holy words correctly. Words penned by untrustworthy man who cannot even agree amongst themselves. Considering the stock piles of death and the geopolitics, it does not seem to be working out so well. Man so stupid it now eats itself to death. Man who is mentally defective when it comes to cognitive distortions, flawed psychology and logical failings so baffling people believe cabbage cures cancer and then die as a result, when their cabbage only diet fails. Man who has come so close to wiping itself out already with Mutually assured destruction. Which only did not go ahead because a Russian defied his orders. All that is on offer from these deities is a false choice. Love and fear only go together with abusers, and abusers are masters of false choice and threats of torturous experience; if you don't do as told.

    Some want to say this is a spiritual school. But then how do you explain the child born with a skin disease where the pain of birth causes them to thrash to death and haemorrhage as their skin peels off as their thrashing worsens leading to a rapid agonised death of baby screams? Yeah, hold that image in your mind and tell me this is some intentional school. People that make these claims about spiritual schools are likely not familiar with the smell of death. Or simply engage in the just world fallacy as it makes them feel better about a world that has had suffering at the core of it for as long as it began spinning. Life feeds on life and the shit that can happen can be entirely meaningless and random. A confluence of causality, not some sort of destiny.

    Regardless of what is believed or not, if I set you on fire you would seek to escape that pain, god be damned in that moment. We are reactionary animals. Since near enough all psychology I know of converges on the view of psychological pain being behind driving suicide. If thoughts of suicide are a crime then whose fault is that? Behold flawed creation, made all the worse with idiotic man and brains of excrement that rot in age adding a new layers of suffering, so in lucid moments suicide seems better than suffering.

    I would prefer this all to be just random chance, born out of time and physics beyond my comprehension as that explains all the flaws the disease and even the rampant stupidity and the seemingly cruel. Because to think this is all orchestrated is a more horrifying thought. I could settle for an indifferent deity like the ocean is to fish.

    Hell is such a warped concept it can only have come from man. Only man is so arrogant as to think everything revolves around them. Only mans gods could display the interesting quality of hating the enemies of the chosen people they happen to hate. Maybe the truth of heaven is in Ketamine, even a devout Atheist can have a religious experience, as studies have shown. Fascinatingly when it comes to near death experiences, religious experience varies based on cultural context. Maybe the afterlife is just worms or ending up in cardboard box no one claims. In truth no one can say or truly know. All we have is anecdote. Along with the fear of not knowing so we must soothe ourselves.

    Life does not seem like a gift, it seems just like it is a default state of being. For us all to be confused in and forge our own meaning. Or have it handed down to us dependent on geological location. There is no consensus and that tells me all I need to know.
  6. Aquarius123

    Aquarius123 Well-Known Member

    There are as many names for the Great Light and its offspring, the tiny spark of Divinity in every human heart and soul, as there are religions and philosophies in our world. To Christianity it is known as the Christ Spirit and for simplicity’s sake, this is the name I am using throughout my writings. Bearing in mind that each one of us is a child of the Great White Spirit, the Universal Christ, would you agree that by definition we are all Christians? I believe that irrespective of how far any soul has thus far got on its evolutionary pathway, the true Kingdom of God is in every heart and soul. And it does not matter one iota which faith we have followed in any of our lifetimes or whether during our present one we never set foot inside any place of worship or not.

    The Jesus legend in the gospel of St. Thomas 113 tells us: ‘His disciples said to Jesus: ‘When will the Kingdom come?’ He replied: ‘It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said: ‘Look, here!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Rather, the Father’s Kingdom is spread out upon the Earth, and people don’t see it.’ It is just because God’s Kingdom is the whole Earth and everything it contains, for a very long time humankind has been unable to find it, in spite of the fact St. Luke 17:20-21 in the Bible told us: ‘When some of the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God would come, he answered: ‘The Kingdom of God does not come by observation. Neither will they say: ‘Behold it is there!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.’

    Thanks be to God and the Angels that by now many are aware that the Kingdom of God is here, there and everywhere and that, as all life is imbued with the life force – although unbeknown to humankind for a very long time – every part of it is sacred and holy. Every heart and soul contains, if only in seed form, the Divine spark that is all loving and all good – that is the kingdom of God. The Christ Spirit spoke and taught us and our world two thousand years ago through the legend of the Master Jesus and the miracles that were worked through him, not by him. St. John 7:16 confirms this: ‘My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.’ This same Holy one is now ready to be called upon to do the same through each and every one of us.

  7. Aquarius123

    Aquarius123 Well-Known Member

    What about Heaven and Hell – are they really places anyone goes to? To me, they represent the various states of consciousness, which we create for ourselves and each other, in the here and now. Because we have freedom of choice, it always has been up to each individual whether to create a living hell for ourselves and those around us or to bring our own ideas of Heaven down to Earth in our daily lives. Throughout all lifetimes in physicality all souls are seeking consciousness expanding experiences that lead to an increase of their own understanding of God’s wisdom and truth as it expresses itself on the Earth plane. For every soul there eventually comes the moment of waking up into the realisation of who and what we truly are and always have been, namely sparks of the Divine and eternal beings of light. This quest continues until we have come fully home again into the conscious awareness of our oneness with our Creator and all life.
    From Heaven And Hell

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