Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Prof.Bruttenholm, Feb 9, 2011.

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  1. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    So now I have a point to make and a question to ask.

    I think it's possible to believe in the Old Gods, like the Norse and Roman, even if those societies are dead. Why is it socially accepted to believe in a Magic Zombie (Jesus; because he rose from the dead where by he is a zombie and used magic or supernatural powers to do stuff) or believe in one all knowing and all powerful god, but not alright to believe in gods of past cultures and societies?

    I raise this question, does it actually say in the bible that the Gods of old weren't truly gods? The Judeo-Christian God (Yahweh) demands that humans worship no god before they worship him, but that does not stipulate that Odin, Aphrodite, Zeus, Tia-mat, Khali or Qestacotal were not in fact gods.

    Follow up question, no Judeo-Christian God believer has been able to answer this question, how does Lucifer become stronger? I mean, Lucifer isn't chained in Hell, that is a myth, the bible says he can walk on both earth and in heaven, so he knows how things are going to turn out, so he must think he can beat God, but he was already cast out, so logic says that Lucifer would want more power, so where is he getting it from?
  2. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Does the Bible mention Lucifer as a devil?
  3. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Not really. Lucifer, Satan and devil are actually separate words.
    Lucifer is one of the three generals of heavens army, along with his brothers Michael and Gabriel.
    Satan is from an old Hebrew word meaning the challenger ( I believe).
    Devil is a term used to describe a demon.

    Also, that raises another question, what is a demon? where does it come from? We have many ideas of demons being grotesque other-worldly creatures with fangs, hooves, wings, long thin arms or animal like appendages and yet the actual creation of demons is limited.
    The only real mention of anything of a demonic nature or form is that of Legion where a man is possessed by a demon that calls itself Legion; quote "for we are many and we are few".

    The bible is really good if you want a vague message with no real answer.

    But back to my original point, Christians have generally accepted Lucifer as The Devil.
  4. 1izombie

    1izombie Well-Known Member

    I would have to agree, the bible for me leaves a lot of unanswered questions as you just highlighted a few of them. One of the questions i always have when it comes to the devil is, if God is Omnipotent, why is there a devil? Surely by definition, God is far more powerful than the Devil, then why even bother letting him exist at all?
  5. Chargette

    Chargette Well-Known Member

    If God destroyed the Devil, would another one come along?
  6. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?

    - Mark Twain
  7. 1izombie

    1izombie Well-Known Member

    good question, i'd slightly change the wording to would "god" allow another one to come along? because, correct me if im wrong, but god is all powerful and all knowing and would have to give his consent to allow something like the devil/satan/Lucifer to exist at all.
  8. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Another point, God made Satan who is blamed for the greatest of evil, yes?
    Then isn't God responsible for the worst of all things mankind faces?

    Another point, God is all forgiving and yet he holds the grudge toward Lucifer of never forgiving him because Lucifer went against his word, once.
    How is that a fair and loving God? Let him back in!
  9. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    That's no great revelation. It's right there in the Bible in black and white that God is the devil.

    Everything works through this God, even evil. God and Satan are the same entity. Always have been, since the Beginning.
  10. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Indeed. People only tie Lucifer to it because he realized he could do a better job than God and wanted to overthrow him.

    I raise another point, God is a hypocrite, he made Adam & Eve but he tossed them out of the garden of Eden even though he is all knowing and knew they would disobey him, why? He is nothing but a hypocrite, he acts more like a child when he doesn't get his way.
  11. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

  12. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    Well more and more scholars and professors are proving that much of what is written in the bible is just copied from other beliefs.

    Christmas was taken from the Romans.
    Easter was taken from the Norse people.
    The word for Hell, was also taken from the Norse people.
  13. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    But nonono, God wasn't omnipotent nor omniscient. He was a man, but wasn't called a man. He walks in the garden, he plants trees and things, delegates responsibility and so forth, and has little to no supervision over nor knowledge of what Adam and Eve were doing at the trees. Who was the serpent? Obviously snakes don't speak, so this was not a snake. Remember, this serpent that spoke to Eve was not a creature that crawls on its belly until God cursed it for bringing knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve. So who was the serpent before it was cursed into being a crawler? It spoke and had knowledge, and was in the garden where God, Adam, and Eve lived and walked, so maybe this was a different type of being who brought man and woman knowledge, but one that God had created.

    God wasn't a supreme entity in the highest sense. It seems more like he was an alien that engineered the Earth and engineered the man and woman from humans that were already created before. Remember, outside of this place called Eden, there were other people (these were those who Cain befriended and married and multiplied with after Cain was banished from Eden). But supposedly, Adam and Eve were the only ones God had created thus far, and the first man and woman, right? Where'd all these other people come from? They were already there, but this God didn't put them there...

    Also, when God had made man, he wasn't alone. Who were all of these other characters in Eden during the creation of man? God repeatedly uses the words "us" and "our" as if there are more than one of him. The story reads like something taking place somewhere isolated in a place where people were already existing, and the ground from where man was taken (from the dirt -- land) is where God banished man back to after they learned the knowledge of good and evil.

    The whole thing is really like a riddle to me, but it is made clear that humans had already existed, and Cain even fears these people, that they will kill him if God releases him into their territory, hidden from God's presence.
  14. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Oh yes. The story of Jesus is just a recreation of an ancient Egyptian story of Horus going back to some 3,000 years BC. Possibly many other religions' similar figures with similar stories.
  15. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    There are also the missing pieces of the scripture, like the true first woman, not eve, but Lilith.

    The missing years of Jesus (Joshua's life) and the time he killed people, well, some kids when he was a kid for insulting his mom.

    Another thing that annoys me about the bible, female roles. Women are portrayed as either beings of betrayal, wickedness or disloyalty or are shown as things of commodity which can be owned and passed along.
    Jobe lost his family, his wife and children and when he passed God's test he was given back three of everything...so...you just randomly make three children and three women for one man? Wait...what?
  16. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Where's the story of Enoch's walk with God, when God "took him up" with him? Took him up? How come everyone else simply dies, but Enoch is specifically called out as being one that "walked with" God and was taken up. What happened there?
  17. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    He was taken away by this God. He disappeared, no one found him. Sounds like he was abducted. He never dies. So Enoch is taken out of the land where God banished man to from the garden, and back to wherever God is. What did he do to please God? He "walked with God" first. What occurred during this?
  18. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    I won't believe in the idea of Alien Super Beings = God. I believe there is no god and if there are aliens of greater intelligence than ours, then where are they?
    I believe, no proof is the same as no proof of God.
    But the story of Enoch is messed up.
    Assuming he went to Heaven, that means living beings could walk into Heaven.
  19. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    But we are not talking about our personal beliefs. Let's follow the literature the way it's written, and what it says about the characters. We know that God isn't real, that's why we're talking about it in a way as if we're talking about any other book, particularly fiction, and that includes assessing the main character, where in the book, it's God. So let's look at it from this perspective.

    But there was no heaven that he walked into and God isn't said to have been in heaven. The heavens were just the stars, in space. Enoch is said in Genesis to have "walked with God," and then was taken up. No one else ever was, only him, and he was taken up, not died, and not living forever, because no one had access to the tree of life that allowed man to live forever.

    This character in the stories, God, is a being with ability to create life, breathe life into nostrils of things that already exist, but he is not something that's untouchable and he even has characteristics like a human. And the God wasn't alone, so it's not a single God; it's a panel or a group of Gods, that's why he says 'we'll make man in our likeness'.

    This is just how I'm interpreting the story the way it's written and it's not written in a way that makes this God untouchable. The character isn't omniscient, not omnipotent, not omni-anything, but does demonstrate an ability to engineer things like land and water and living things for the first time (the first time God makes them, that is), and light and darkness, and manipulate politics, in a place where these things already exist, particularly people already existed.

    So this God in this Bible is not the same one that these Christians believe it is. Because from the way it's written, God was not something so superior and untouchable, living in the sky, or any of those descriptions. This is written more similar to stories of how Europeans walked onto the North American land and wrote a book about discovering it and creating their own society of people, as if no one was ever even there. And then all of a sudden "natives" come into the picture, and it's like "well where'd all these people come from if no one was there but the Europeans."

    It seems like this God was some type of foreigner or invader, creating new things from a place that already existed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2011
  20. Prof.Bruttenholm

    Prof.Bruttenholm Well-Known Member

    It could be, an group or hive like mind of super beings that can manipulate have been theorized, not alien as we think of it, like little gray men with big black eyes or reptilian bounty hunters, but rather beings of perhaps humanoid form or thought but of bodies of pure energy.
    This theorized in the existence of the fourth dimension of time and the possibility that life can exist within and outside it's limits.
    See, we still can't think in the 4th dimension, we know it's there but it's like being at a deli and you want half a pound of ham, it's there, you see it but that ham isn't yours until the man in the paper white hat gives it to you.
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