Have you been here?

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by hearth, Aug 9, 2010.

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  1. hearth

    hearth Member

    I think I just want to know that other people have been in my shoes and what they've done to get through it.

    A month ago my wife told me that she needed some space. A week later she took our one child, a toddler, with her and went away. She's been gone 3 weeks now, with no indication of when she'll return.

    I have no other family -- my parents, my sister, they're all gone. My uncles and aunts are estranged. I have no close friends that I can talk to. After we moved to the city we currently live in I didn't make any work friends or anything like that because I had a long commute and I was trying to spend a lot of time with my wife so she wouldn't feel isolated. She works from home and has a hard time making friends, too. I did my best to support her. It seems that it wasn't enough.

    The hurt from being abandoned by someone that you love so deeply is bad enough. The hurt from being separated from your child is bad enough. But I was raised to believe that family is everything. If my wife goes, then I have no family anymore. My meaning is to take care of my family, so if they go, I have no meaning anymore. I'd have failed as a husband, failed as a father, failed as a son. Without a family to care for, what point is there? I should just transfer all of my assets to her and let go. That would make it easier for both of us.

    But not easier for my son. My son needs a father. But he also needs parents that love each other, so it is really so much better this way? Maybe it is better to just get out of the way, so his mother can find a way to be happy, and then he can have two loving parents again. Assuming he ever had any.

    It would not be fair to me. But once I am gone, I won't care about that.

    I try to talk to my wife. I want desperately to reconcile. I keep thinking that we're on the right track but then things go sour again. At this point, if I am honest with myself, I believe that she no longer loves me and doesn't really want to return. I try to convince myself otherwise, but there is a hollow feeling that I can't ignore without some kind of distraction that is painful enough to drown out the feeling that comes from inside. My wife knows how I feel about family, but she left anyway. I've told her again on the phone, but she still hasn't given me any indication when she'll come back, if ever. She is not giving me any sense of hope to work with. If she did that, I think I could keep it together, but she just isn't.

    I don't know anyone who has experience with anything like this kind of situation, even if I could talk to them about it. My therapist has been trying to help, but I think she also is out of her depth. Talking to her gets me through a few days but then the emptiness of my house recalls the emptiness in my heart, and it all comes creeping back. Maybe someone else here knows what it is like and can give me some perspective.
  2. total eclipse

    total eclipse SF Friend Staff Alumni

    You need to get legal help here so you can get visitation with your son and so she cannot take him away like this It is not fair to him or you. Get some legal help now so you don't lose contact with your son okay. Do it now while you still know where she is.
  3. hearth

    hearth Member

    I'm not entirely sure where she is now. I thought I knew, but I joked about coming to get her and she shot back about how I wouldn't be able to find her.

    I don't know what kind of legal help to get. We aren't divorced or legally separated. She just left. Short of accusing her of kidnapping our son, I don't think there is anything to do. And I am not going to do that.

    I don't think he understands what is going on between me and my wife. She's let me speak with him on the phone a couple of times in the past few weeks and he seems happy. I would like to remember him happy and I don't think that getting into a tug-of-war over him will accomplish that. He's a fine boy. He doesn't really need me to do well in this world.

    You're right, it isn't fair to me. But life isn't fair, is it?

    My mother used to tell me that the only people you can really trust in the world is your family. Just right now it seems that I can only trust my family to leave.

    I just don't see what it matters what happens to me. I think right now that the only person in the world who really loves me is my son, but he is young enough that if I were to die today he may not even remember me. Maybe he would be happier that way instead of having to deal with the fallout of whatever is going on between me and my wife.
  4. flowingriver

    flowingriver Well-Known Member

    Hearth, welcome to Suicide Forums. There are many kind people here who will like to support you.

    I have not gone through anything like this, but I can see that your wife might be restless and looking for something new. But if like you said, she finds it hard to make friends and is in a new city, then she does not really have a strong base to work from, unless someone is helping her. Is she with her family? Did you call her parents? Personally, I don't think this is permanent. You have been always there for her and your son, and she can't walk away from that. It's hard to find unconditional love out there, and you are the one that has given her that. So she needs to find herself and then she will on her own come back to you. That is what I feel.

    Somehow I think she will come back to you. Don't let her feel that you are desperate, or it will give her a stronger impetus to stay away from you. Stay cool as if you don't need her. She will then wonder why you are not crying and pleading, and that will make her less certain of herself.
  5. hearth

    hearth Member

    We live quite near her family. Her parents and her sister also don't know when or if she is coming home. They've been calling me to ask if I've heard, so she hasn't told them what is going on between us, either.

    I'm a very stoic person, and that is one of her problems with me. She doesn't feel loved and supported by me. I have done a bad job at showing her. I guess I thought that after so long she would know, or that she would have said something long ago. We've been together over 20 years now. Ultimately, though, I think playing it cool is probably not going to help the situation. If she does come back then we have a lot to work through.

    I'm just trying to keep my feet under me until then. It's hard, and it's getting harder every day. Each day she stays away -- not just physically but emotionally -- the more convinced I become that there is no future, and people know what sorts of things cross your mind when you believe that there is no future.

    She has to decide to come back, and there's not really anything I can do about it.

    In the meantime, I need to know that there is a reason to wait, for her sake or for my son's sake. For someone's sake. I need hope. I just don't know where to find it.
  6. Black Beauty

    Black Beauty Well-Known Member

    That is so devastating to hear. I realise it must be a horrible time for you right now but PLEASE try to understand what I'm saying. THE MORE NEEDY YOU ARE WITH A WOMAN, THE MORE SHE WILL RUN AWAY FROM YOU. There are complex psychological reasons as to why women are the way they are but no matter how good you try to be to them, the nicer you are to them the worse they will treat you.

    Look at this guy, he's written a book called No More Christian Nice Guy. It's from a religious perspective, but basically he was the best husband that he could be to his wife, but it got to the point where she eventually wanted to divorce him and he didn't know what he was doing wrong:


    Please, before you do anything drastic (such as commit suicide), at least read what he has to say.
  7. hearth

    hearth Member

    I'll look at that site, thanks.
  8. hearth

    hearth Member

    Maybe you're right. Maybe being too needy is the problem. But a person is who they are, and you shouldn't make a bet if you aren't willing to back it. So it's not just a matter of playing it cool. If I make like it's ok that she decides not to come back, then I have to be ready to deal with that. So maybe needing too much is the problem. Maybe the time has come that she should feel the consequences for what she is doing, and I should just let this whole thing go. Since I have no family, there'll be no one who'll miss me, anyway, so what difference does it make? Where's Clarence when I need him? (maybe that movie reference is too old for most of the people on here...)
  9. Black Beauty

    Black Beauty Well-Known Member

    Well, you can end it now and that's all there is to it.

    But if there still is a chance, and all that chance takes is for you to change yourself a little bit, even going outside your comfort zone, then why not just run the last mile?

    Think of it this way. If your wife was fat and ugly, but could look really hot if she made a bit of effort to thin down, then would you want her to say: "Well, I am who I am, and I don't want to change". So likewise - with women - they generally don't care about looks, but they're attracted to confidence and not neediness. And I'll tell you what - improving your confidence is a lot easier than losing weight.

    Have a read of this:

    I got married young, and simply did not understand anything about game, or the benefits of assertive masculinity. I put my wife on a pedestal and spent 7 years or so of a very contentious, walking on egg-shell type of relationship that teetered towards divorce more than a few times.

    I discovered PUA/Game sites like this one a few years ago, and after a bit of reading on shit tests, and the subconscious mating desires of females, I began to “run game” on my wife.

    The transformation of our relationship is astounding.

    Yes, she put on a good 40 lbs. a couple of years after we got married.

    Once I learned to game her subconscious, competitive instincts and began to plant suggestions in her mind that I was desirable to other women…she’s gotten motivated and lost the weight, and her affection towards me reverted back to the way she was before got married.

    Once I started recognizing her shit tests and began to not just “pass them” but literally blow them up, the passive-aggressive emotionally driven conflict that had been the hallmark of our relationship has all but disappeared.

    We don’t fight anymore.

    My wife, who used to grumble and complain and tell all her closest friends and family that we had a “difficult relationship with lots of problems that needs working on” now tells everyone she’s happily married without blinking an eye.

    I changed our relationship dynamic after learning about game.I stopped always asking her what she wants and started being decisive while playing up the mysterious angle.

    Here was a typical scenario back then:

    HER: “I’m hungry.”

    ME: “What do you want to eat?”

    HER: “I don’t know…”

    ME: “How about McDonalds?”

    HER: “I dunno.”

    ME: “How about Taco bell?”

    HER: {shrugs}

    ME: “KFC? I know you really like the original recipe chicken dinner…”

    HER: “well yeah…”

    ME: “OK, great, let’s go!”

    Drives to the KFC drive-thru.

    ME: I’ll have the Zesty Crispy Chicken Wrap…what do you want, honey?”

    HER: “I don’t want to eat here.”

    ME: “What? I thought you said…”

    HER: “I never said I wanted KFC.”

    ME: “But…what do you want then? Whatever you want, just let me know, and we’ll go there!”

    HER: “It’s too late, you’ve already ordered here.”

    ME: “Fine then. So what do you want?”

    HER: “Nothing, just take me home. I’ll figure out what I’m going to eat later. {Said in a grouchy tone}.

    ME: “Why do you have to be like that?

    HER: “Be like what? I never said I wanted KFC!”

    ME: “Well what do you want then?”

    HER: “Don’t worry about me already! Just get YOUR food and take me home!”

    ME: “I’ve asked you how many times to tell me what you want and I’ll take you there! Why do you always have to act like this?”

    HER: “Act like what? Nevermind already! It’s obvious you don’t really care about what I want…it’s only about what you want! I didn’t want KFC and yet you’re trying to make like it’s all my fault just because I don’t want to eat here! I never wanted to eat here in the first place!!!!”

    ME: “$*%^(YT@#($)(#&!!!!!”

    Same scenario, now:

    HER: “I’m hungry”

    ME: “So am I. Let’s go.”

    HER: “Go where?”

    ME: “You’ll see.”

    HER: “C’mon, tell me…”

    ME {Rolling my eyes and turning away from her, getting ready to head out with or without her.}: “Are you gonna sit here and play twenty questions like a spoiled little princess or are you gonna come along and eat with me?”

    HER {Now she starts getting ready to go.}: “C’mon…why don’t you tell me…”

    At that point, I could take her to a fine-dining restaurant or McDonalds, it doesn’t matter.

    What mattered was that I passed her shit test and played the role of the ‘provider.’

    I stopped treating my wife like I was an enslaved sycophant willing to do whatever the goddess desired and started treating her like the kid sister with the backhanded compliments, light-hearted teasing, and over-the-top sarcasm to deal with her shit-tests…all within the “frame” of subconsciously reinforcing the notion that I’m attractive to other women.

    For another example, I remember one instance where we went to a dinner party, and there was a, beautiful, blond girl that was a friend of a mutual friend, and it was the first time we met her. Her and I hit it off immediately on a conversational level.

    After the dinner, on the ride home she started in…

    “So tell me, is _______ better looking than me?”

    Now the reality is that why yes, she was…and we both knew it. (Turns out, she was a former swimsuit model…)

    I was scared to death to admit this to her. I immediately and reflexively lied to her. She became infuriated.

    “Why’d you keep talking to her all night long? Where you attracted to her? Don’t lie, I saw you looking at her while you were talking!”

    I uncomfortably whimpered “Well, she was sitting directly across from me all night long…”

    Needless to say, the conversation continued to escalate in that vain, with her continually getting angrier and angrier as she played the role of hostile interrogator, and I, the hapless idiot husband, caught doing something wrong…trying to squirm out of the pending punishment.

    She “dominated” this conversation from the beginning, she set the frame and I unwittingly relinquished my backbone.

    Eventually it turned into a full blown argument as I got angry at her for getting angry, because in reality I had done nothing wrong but have the temerity to have conversation with a beautiful woman at the same dinner table.

    Contrast that with how I handle a similar incidents now, after I had figured out the underlying dynamics behind why we would always get into those types of fights and arguments…

    ME: “Of course she was talking to me! Most beautiful women do! That’s EXACTLY why you married me! What lady can resist these?” (Thrn I would just flex my biceps and like I’m the world’s baddest man…all with a smirk on my face.)

    HER: She rolls her eyes, chuckles and responds, “Yeah right…no woman would want you if you were the last guy on earth.”

    ME: “That’s not what your {name of her best friend} said the other night when she was begging me to kiss her…”

    HER: {giggling} “You’re so silly…”

    In other words, I learned to turn those “shit tests” into playful banter with a subtle frame of reference (treating her like she’s the “younger sister w/ cooties” instead of the goddess who I’d be most fortunate if only she’d let me kiss her feet), rather than address them at face value. In short, learned to “lead the conversation…i.e. “dominate.”

    I used to tell her the typical lies of a cowed and fearful married man that is the ubiquitous caricature of men in today’s feminist warped mass media… “No honey, I ONLY have eyes for you! I promise! I don’t even LOOK at other women!”

    In retrospect, I can’t believe I spent YEARS protesting innocence and begging her to not get upset, and never realized that taking that tact ALWAYS resulted in bad feelings and “relationship problems.”

    At the same time, I reinforce the notion that I’m desirable to other woman (remember – no one wants to go to the club that is empty…everyone wants to get in to the one with the line around the block.)

    And I tell you, I really REALLY felt silly and ridiculous when I first started acting like that whenever the shit tests came up.

    Now, it comes to me like a second reflex.

    The more I tried to supplicate [my wife]…to plead with her…to beg her “why do you have to be so angry? Can’t we just get along? Is this really that big of a deal? Look, I’m sorry….”

    Oh yes, I was ALWAYS apologizing. Oh, and I usually begged for sex.

    I would try to use logic and reason to deal with her emotional state. Never worked. Ever.

    In other words, I was letting her emotional state dictate my response. I was trying to appease her mood.

    After reading up on game, I gained insight into the basic, biological motivations of females. I quickly realized that I was acting beta, and she was no longer attracted to me…making her angrier and angrier by the day because she couldn’t stand the fact that she was married to and living with a spineless, grovelling chump always searching for appeasement and begging for sex.

    Once I was conscious of that dynamic…I became conscientious about how I began acting around her.

    For a recent an example of that change of mindset I’m talking about:

    Just the other night, I called her to let her know I was coming home so she could time dinner to be ready when I got home.

    I was dead tired from my martial arts training that day (I was doing full contact kickboxing training, very rigorous)…and I stopped at my friends house at around 5:00pm to drop something off that I had borrowed from them and have a quick drink before heading home.

    After one drink, I lay down on my friend’s couch for a moment…and the next thing I know, it’s 2:30am in the morning.

    I drove home, and got into bed. I thought she was asleep…but she promptly said in a real bitchy tone “Where you having fun tonight?!?!”

    I simply said “I fell asleep on _____’s couch. I’m tired, good night, dear.”

    And promptly rolled over and went to sleep. I don’t even remember what she said to me in response.

    The “old” me would have been begging her for forgiveness and apologizing profusely.

    She was still upset the next morning…so I let her be upset. She tried to argue with me about it, and I would just shrug, and go start cooking breakfast. She would say something pointed, and I would change the subject.

    When she kept pushing me, I just told her straight up – I was dead tired, I lay down for a moment and literally passed out form exhaustion. What is their to apologize for? I’m going to eat breakfast now and enjoy the beautiful morning…care to join me?”

    She may have grumbled a bit more, but in the end, we ended up having a nice breakfast, and the topic was dead…other than the occasional, off-hand joke from her about how “You don’t come home anymore,” over the next few days…to which I would either ignore it, change the subject or “agree and amplify” to the point of absurdity.

    “Of course dear, don’t you know us pimp daddies have a lot of hoes that take up all our time!”

    The old, beta me would have been banished to the couch, subjected to a few days of silent treatment and begging for her forgiveness…only making it worse and worse the more I would grovel and beg.

    Whether you do nice things for your woman or you act like a jerk, neither will kill her attraction for you in and of itself.

    Just make sure that whatever you do, you do not do it in a beta, supplicating manner.

    You want to boil down “game” into one phrase, it’s DON’T BE BETA. Don’t put her on the pedestal. Adopt the mentality that you are atop her pedestal, and act accordingly.

    Honey, would you like me to give you a massage? I know you’re sore form your hard day! Let me make you feel better…

    That would be a typical offer praised to the high heavens by 99% of all women hearing about such a question. Hearing such a story will elicit “wow, that’s so SWEET! Your so lucky to have such a great husband!”

    But in reality…that’s beta.

    It’s begging and pleading to please your wife. In essence, you’re asking her permission to do her a favor.

    Half the time, she’ll flat out turn the offer down, even if she DOES want a massage in the worst way…because as sore as her muscles are, embedded deep in her id is the contempt for the very idea of a beta putting his hands on her naked body.

    Doing the same thing, but in a non-Beta manner – cocky/arrogant style – “Get over here and take your clothes off, I’m tired of hearing you groan about your sore muscles.”

    or going for the subtle expression of having higher social status… “Well than you better thank your lucky stars you married an expert masseuse…”

    In either case, you’ve done the “nice husband thing.” But the frame you keep to do the “nice” thing is what is truly going to either maintain her attraction for you or kill it.

    I had no clue how badly I was failing shit tests, and why I was always getting into passive-aggressive conflicts. I thought shit tests were logical inquiries based on linear thinking.

    Upon reading the Agree & Amplify approach to shit tests, now-defunct PUA blog “The Reality Method,” I thought long and hard about how many times I had encountered such tests and failed them miserably.

    The first time I tried A&A, when she asked me if I had a mistress, and I answered that no, I had 4 of them, and I was getting worn out trying to keep them all plus herself satisfied. I was holding my breath trying to see what her reaction would be….she giggled and said “you’re so delusional!” To which I than A&A again…”Damn straight, how else do you think I’ve stayed married to you all these years?” The conversation turned into playful teasing, ending with me spanking her ass and starting to playfully roughhouse.

    Inside, I felt like I had just discovered the holy grail. I spent YEARS in the “What do you mean you think I have a mistress? Why would you think that? You know you’re the only women for me!”

    The next time I got another shit test from her, I was more than ready for it:

    “Do I look fat in this dress?”

    The shit test is really in effect, beta entrapment.

    The absurdity of the shit test is that women aren’t consciously aware they are doing them. Which makes them all the more dangerous.

    Same goes for things like flowers, candy and other so-called “romantic” little gifts that often are what society says are the correct ways for men to show their women they love them. While in the new, courting phase, it won’t backfire on you if you give them frequently…constantly buying her flowers, teddy bears, candy etc. will lose it’s value for inspiring her attraction once you are in a LTR.

    - The most important LTR advice I think I can add, is this: if and when you know you did wrong, that she does in fact deserve an apology, you MUST learn to apologize with sincerity without projecting the attitude that you are sorry.

    That may sound confusing at first, but what I mean is that while you are apologizing for something, you MUST maintain a state of social dominance. You do not beg or plead for forgiveness. You do not apologize more than once…ever. If you do apologize, you say it once, with a full detailed explanation of why you know you did wrong, that you understand why your behavior/actions upset her, than you say your apology, and then THAT IS IT. Do NOT try and “make it up” in explicit terms. Do not bow down to her demands. If she says “you better get me some flowers for this one,” that’s the one sure guarantee that you are NOT going to give her flowers.

    Don’t even ask for forgiveness. Act as if your apology is all there is to say about it, you can forgive me or not.

    That last point was the hardest one for me to learn at first. I cannot tell you how different it is now when we have a fight, and I consciously maintain the frame of not becoming a supplicant begging for her forgiveness.

    Our arguments can be white hot and aggressive, but if I maintain my dominant mentality, these conflicts end quickly and almost always result in the best kind of LTR sex…”makeup” sex.

    I used to think that hot makeup sex was a myth. Now I know the truth – makeup sex only happens if your wife respects you, and lusts you for your dominance. Even if you’re wrong, and you apologized and admitted you were wrong…if you do it right and maintain your dominant status, her anger will eventually fade, but her attraction will increase. Think of fighting and arguing with your woman as the ultimate LTR shit test.

    If you are begging, simpering, cowed beta that always begs for forgiveness and pleads with her to not get mad at you or to just “forget it,” the tension will eventually blow over…but her subconscious satisfaction with your beta demeanor will kill any chance of that hot makeup sex, and start to build up in her and affect all other areas of your relationship.

    When I first started changing my behavior, I had to consciously think of everything I said and did. It was difficult at first.

    But the more you consciously do these things, and the more you see how it works positively in your relationship, the easier it gets.

    When I first began “gaming” her, I was still afraid of her emotional state…I found game a means of not bringing out her anger or disappointment.

    Now, however, I’ve truly developed the mindset of having NO fear of my woman’s emotional state.

    Once I realized this mindset, and internalized it, everything started to become second nature.

    As a beta-ized husband, I lived in constant fear of upsetting her…fear of her dissaproval…fear of her tears. I used to think of lies to tell her about things that were not even wrong, just to try and avoid making her mad with me.
    This was when we were at our worst.

    At the beach, back in the “beta” days:

    HER: “I see you looking at that chic in the G-string!”

    ME: “I was not! Honestly honey, I only have eyes for you!”

    We both know I was lying…and she would get upset, and not speak to me and we’d end up getting into an argument that ruined the entire day. Ironic isn’t it…by lying to her to try and avoid conflict, I actually made it much worse.


    HER: “I see you looking at her!”

    ME: “She’s hot, isn’t she?”
  10. hearth

    hearth Member

    My wife IS fat and, frankly, not very sexy. But I love her anyway, because of who she is. I'm the good looking one, and she's the one who is worried about the attention I get. That's why she is so worried that she doesn't feel enough affection from me. Because she's insecure about who she is, she's depressed in a clinical sense, taking meds, and doesn't respond the way all of those game sites say. Making her feel insecure drives her deeper into her shell, the same as it does to almost everyone else who is posting here. Do you think the people here want their insecurities waved about in their face? Do you really think that helps anyone feel better about themselves?

    The game is about teaching insecure men to turn the tables to play on women's insecurities, and true loyalty doesn't come from insecurity. It comes from trust. The game creates a situation where you have two people who are constantly playing each other, and there is no trust in that situation. It's an unstable life of interpersonal manipulation. That's fine when you're 20, maybe even in your 30s. But as you get older, you just get tired of living that way. Or I should say that I am.

    I do everything I can to help my wife feel secure and proud about who she is. Because I love her. This isn't a matter of putting anyone on a pedestal. She's not perfect. She knows that. She knows that I know that. We've been together for 20 years. That's a hard won 20 years it's been a lot of work. In some ways I have done this to myself, perhaps, by helping her feel secure that she doesn't have to cling to me.

    What this is about is that I grew up believing that family is everything. That you work and you sacrifice for your family. You never let your family down. My sister used to take every opportunity to belittle me and hurt me. And yet when she was in the hospital with cancer, I flew from my state to the state she was in every two weeks to spend time with her to support her, even though she tortured me at every opportunity. That is what family does. And I've tried to hold things together with my wife, but when she doesn't bother to hold up her end, then what kind of family is this? What kind of example is she setting to our son, showing that it is ok not to stay in touch with me? She has taken my devotion to her and thrown it into my face.

    This is not about keeping a woman, it is about the foundational belief of my life -- the integrity of the family -- being blown into tiny little pieces. Even if she comes back, the question in my mind is: why should I believe things will change? What makes me think that when I get home tomorrow, or next week, or whatever, she won't have just gone again?

    I could just divorce her and try go on, except, again, there's this problem I have in that I believe divorce is wrong. To divorce her is to give up on my family, but family is inviolate. "Until death do you part" is a vow that I take seriously.
  11. Stranger1

    Stranger1 Forum Buddy & Antiquities Friend

    I can relate to you.. My wife and me split up six times..Then we finally decided to divorce.. She was my world and pulled the rug out from under me.. We had a three year old daughter.. When I filed for divorce she took off and went back up north.. Legally as long as we were still married she could do that.. If the divorce went thru before she left she wouldn't be able to go anywhere out of the state.. I got visitation rights..I brought my daughter down when I could afford it..It's benn twenty sum years since we divorced and I still love her because she is the mother of my daughter..My daughter is 29 now and I have a 9 year old grandaughter..It's hard to face the fact that it could be over.. You will survive..You need to be there for your son..He needs his real dad.. I would seek legal help so she has to let you spend time with him..I wish you the best...
  12. hearth

    hearth Member

    Thanks, Stranger1.

    Right now the main thing keeping me going is the thought that my son needs me and that it wouldn't be easier for him if I were to just duck out of the picture.
  13. Black Beauty

    Black Beauty Well-Known Member

    There's a big difference between playful teasing and manipulation. From what it sounds like, just from the few posts you've made here, you're too intense and take marriage way too seriously - that way she probably felt a lot of pressure from you to be able to look at it the way you do.

    Love should be something that is enjoyed, not a 'goal' or hard work. It should just come naturally. It's kind of like religion - you can't force yourself to be more religious, you have to feel like wanting to be more religious.

    If you've been brought up to believe that family is everything and that divorce is unacceptable - then throw away those beliefs. We humans have evolved for millions of years - part of evolving is adapting to new circumstances. Find another woman who shares your beliefs. I'm sure there's a million other fat women out there who have never been loved, never been married and dream of it day and night but couldn't get it 'cos they weren't hot like their friends, who will appreciate you more than your wife does.

    Go save them.
  14. hearth

    hearth Member

    I'm not here to save anyone from anything. I love my wife for who she is. Most "beautiful" women I know are not nearly as beautiful as she is once you get past their exteriors.

    You're right, there's no forcing love. I don't see what your point is.

    Can you so easily throw away your beliefs? Do you have any beliefs?

    Finally, you have a lot of nerve judging me and my marriage from a handful of posts to a forum for "people in crisis." I'm intense because what I am feeling right now is very intense. I came here not expecting relationship advice, but looking for someone who knows what it is like to have a family that they cared for fall apart, and to be faced with the question of what kind of future is best for their child: one without a father, or one with the strife that comes a family undergoing that kind of transition.

    Have you ever had to save your marriage? Do you have kids? If so, then tell me what YOUR experience is, don't quote that game BS to me. Tell me about how YOU got through what I'm going through. If not, then what is it that you hope to accomplish by talking to me about something you have no experience with?
  15. Black Beauty

    Black Beauty Well-Known Member

    Whatever. Why don't you take a good look at your own attitude and ask yourself whether you would be someone you would want to be married to. You talk about being a loving person but that's definitely not reflected in the way you speak.

    You say you don't want advice, then you say you want to know how I got through my hard times, well which one is it?

    Do you want sympathy?

    From my own experience the first step is often to improve yourself, not complain about other people. Instead of saying what a good family man you are because you love your wife but it's your wife's fault for not loving you back, you're showing that you're anything but loving towards her.

  16. Black Beauty

    Black Beauty Well-Known Member

    Other than that what else is there to say? Like the other poster said - go get a lawyer if you want what's best for your child.
  17. hearth

    hearth Member

    When did I say I'm a loving person? When did I say that I'm a good family man? When have I complained about her? I'm devoted to my family, and I love my family. That's not the same as being "loving" or a good family man. I know that. I have plenty of my own problems. I'm not blaming my wife for anything more than her half of what is going on. I accept my responsibility, the part that I've played, and the fact that I need to change to fix things. I've even been trying, but, when she's not around it's hard to tell if I am making any headway. That's not the issue.

    I said I'm not looking for advice on how to fix my marriage. I'm looking for advice on how to get past what I am feeling now so that I can get to the point where my wife and I can work on fixing our marriage.

    We're just talking past each other. I think we got off on the wrong foot. Something I said probably gave the wrong impression. I have a pretty good idea of how to get her back, and I'm working on that. That is not the problem. Given enough time, she'll come around. And if not, eventually it'll be long enough that it'll be grounds for legal action. The problem is keeping myself together until then. As of right now, I don't know what help a lawyer is because she hasn't (yet) broken any laws and hasn't (yet) given grounds for divorce. It'll be a while before we get there and I don't know that I can hold it together that long.

    So thanks for your advice, I appreciate your efforts and your intentions, for what it's worth. But maybe it was a mistake to try posting about my situation here since I've clearly been unable to express myself in any useful way. Thanks anyway. The advice I've gotten so far has been to act like less of a beta male (something that is generally not a problem for me), and to get lawyers involved to better wrest my son back away from my wife (something that is hardly going to engender reconciliation). I understand where its coming from but I find neither to be good coping strategies. At least nothing to compare to the sorts of things that I engage in now (which I won't discuss as I understand they may be considered "triggering").
  18. Black Beauty

    Black Beauty Well-Known Member

    All the best.
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