Having kids is moral

[me myself and i]

Can we choose to have children? Well i guess some of us can.
Can we choose to bring life in this world? Well i guess some of us can.
Do two wrongs make a right, Do two rights make a wrong?
How can we expect change in this world without trying to change it ourselves?
If we bring children into this world in a loving, secure and happy way, does this mean that they may have a positive effect on the world tomorrow?
I believe that mankinds time on this earth is the same as everything else........one big circle. Only through mistakes and change can things get better.
All about learning you see.
Perhaps if we put a positive spin on mankind and its future it might have a chance of working itself out a bit quicker?
If having children is selfish............. how come they get all my love, time, money and teachings.
Yes, i get their love and time back too...............along with, dirty nappies, sleepless nights, tantrums, stubborness and attitude.

 

[Sadeyes]

I do believe having children is selfish, but there are positive expressions of selfishness (as we have spoken about in the past). I think wanted, well cared for children are the joys we bring to the world, and yes, there are many ppl with children who should never be parents, and many ppl without children who would be ideal parents...this is not determined by social-ec as I have found some of the best parents in poverty and some of the worst who are rich...it is a richness of spirit and the ability to be an adequate parent that should be the determining factors...J

 

[me myself and i]

I do believe having children is selfish, but there are positive expressions of selfishness (as we have spoken about in the past). I think wanted, well cared for children are the joys we bring to the world, and yes, there are many ppl with children who should never be parents, and many ppl without children who would be ideal parents...this is not determined by social-ec as I have found some of the best parents in poverty and some of the worst who are rich...it is a richness of spirit and the ability to be an adequate parent that should be the determining factors...J

Damn.............thats just what i meant to say! :tongue:

 

[pppqp]

I don't doubt even a little bit that you love your children with all your heart. That you can give everything, sacrifice everything you have for their happiness.

However, if your child, when he/she grow up, becomes perpetually devastated to the point that he/she commits suicide, do you still believe that bringing this child into the world is a beautiful thing or the most precious gift for this child?

Your love isn't the only thing that contributes to his/her happiness.

No one can predict the future of a child, then why do we have to take a risk? What is the real reason?

I think it is pure selfishness plus ignorance. You want to be happy BY having a child. You are blinded to the possibility of someone living a miserable life because your desire to experience happiness is so strong.

 

[me myself and i]

I don't doubt even a little bit that you love your children with all your heart. That you can give everything, sacrifice everything you have for their happiness.

However, if your child, when he/she grow up, becomes perpetually devastated to the point that he/she commits suicide, do you still believe that bringing this child into the world is a beautiful thing or the most precious gift for this child?

Your love isn't the only thing that contributes to his/her happiness.

No one can predict the future of a child, then why do we have to take a risk? What is the real reason?

I think it is pure selfishness plus ignorance. You want to be happy BY having a child. You are blinded to the possibility of someone living a miserable life because your desire to experience happiness is so strong.

Having a child does not bring happiness, happiness is never an emotion i would seek, perhaps contentment, but no more.
How are you so certain of my own feelings on this subject?
I am ignorant? Thats a big call from someone who does not know me.
Most people do not have any suicidal ideas during their life............. so its a big call again to suggest they will...........
I had a very difficult childhood, perhaps i have more reason than most not to want any child to suffer in any way. I also believe that through my experience i would hope i would be well equipped to maybe offer some steady guidance.
I think we have to remember we are animals, albeit ones that mess things up a lot. As animals we are naturally capable of reproduction......and for many...............not all.............this occurs.
I am pleased to see you have a computer, warmth and food, some people will never have a steady stream of these things.

 

[Kaos General]

I don't doubt even a little bit that you love your children with all your heart. That you can give everything, sacrifice everything you have for their happiness.

However, if your child, when he/she grow up, becomes perpetually devastated to the point that he/she commits suicide, do you still believe that bringing this child into the world is a beautiful thing or the most precious gift for this child?

Your love isn't the only thing that contributes to his/her happiness.

No one can predict the future of a child, then why do we have to take a risk? What is the real reason?

I think it is pure selfishness plus ignorance. You want to be happy BY having a child. You are blinded to the possibility of someone living a miserable life because your desire to experience happiness is so strong.

I guess you like presumptions because after reading both threads thats all of what most people are capable of doing. I would love to know how you and all these other people can see into the future because i want a crystal ball as well.

What you have just said is what most people percieve suicide to be as well, do you think that view is also right? Just because someone is happy and their kids are happy all i can think is the jealousy seems to be eating away at you and other people to the point where your beginning to sound like some cult or fascist dictator where all opposing views are wrong and only your view is right. So i guess my appropriate response should be xxxxx

 

[Phteven]

I don't doubt even a little bit that you love your children with all your heart. That you can give everything, sacrifice everything you have for their happiness.

However, if your child, when he/she grow up, becomes perpetually devastated to the point that he/she commits suicide, do you still believe that bringing this child into the world is a beautiful thing or the most precious gift for this child?

Your love isn't the only thing that contributes to his/her happiness.

No one can predict the future of a child, then why do we have to take a risk? What is the real reason?

I think it is pure selfishness plus ignorance. You want to be happy BY having a child. You are blinded to the possibility of someone living a miserable life because your desire to experience happiness is so strong.

It's hardly a selfish act having a child is a commitment of years of your life and resources to raise a child. Its not a selfish act at all, it's selfless.

 

[justMe7]

I don't doubt even a little bit that you love your children with all your heart. That you can give everything, sacrifice everything you have for their happiness.

However, if your child, when he/she grow up, becomes perpetually devastated to the point that he/she commits suicide, do you still believe that bringing this child into the world is a beautiful thing or the most precious gift for this child?

The ends dont define the life. That's the problem when you feel suicidal, everything cumulates into a destructive force and blankets the best times and connections out. You're end result question on bringing a life into this existence is like.. fuck me. Fuck the good parts, Its all about THE BAD PARTS. Better not cross the road too while youre at it? ..

Your love isn't the only thing that contributes to his/her happiness.

Yes... it's called life and experiences. People, places, things.. how we chose to live our lives, how we endure and how we progress and express. And la deda da.

No one can predict the future of a child, then why do we have to take a risk? What is the real reason?

Wtf? if you wanted to predict the future for any life form youve lost the plot seriously. How is that living? You educate and love and care for your child. Help them understand a percieved ideal of balance and respect for life, aswell as letting them be who they are and have the opportunity to grow without being dictated to or crushed by someone elses definition of life. Help them to be strong and curious about life.

I think it is pure selfishness plus ignorance. You want to be happy BY having a child. You are blinded to the possibility of someone living a miserable life because your desire to experience happiness is so strong.

EH? omg what the hell is wrong with people? Obviously you dont want a child. Fair enough.. you dont understand.. it's not souly for you, it's about having a life that's new and giving it the best that you can, and watching it grow and live its own life. Knowing youll always be there for it and there to someday walk beside it. It's not perfect, but jesus christ... Who the heck wants a child for themself souly? I'd tell them to get a puppy.. actually no, id tell them to get a friend. Children arent a means to an end of self importance and happyness. It's a life, a continuation and a liberation into this life. And life can and is SHIT, but life is also Beautiful and fun, and loving.

Excuse me mate but you are blinded BY the possibility of someone living a miserable life because .... ''insert your own personal issue with life here''. Just reverse logic you're subjecting other people to. It's like..common. You're picking a negative side to it. Lifes what you make of it. Lifes not always miserable, lifes not always happy. It's life, and we make do as best as we can. With children? You can make their life better and share the best bits with them, and your own personal understandings of the worst bits so you can help them deal with it easier. I wouldnt take an experience of pain away from a child in concept{depends what it is}, but i'd always be there to help them through it and to see the best parts of life. Get knocked down, get up. blah blah blah blah

This anti children crap isn't about children. It's about people who are pissed off at their own lives and are projecting their distorted negative views onto the procreation and progression of life. Yeah... you[anyone in general] might have had a bad childhood. Honestly, im extremely sorry to hear that if that's the case. But that doesnt make you bad or wanting a child bad. Or more importantly Life bad. Life isn't souly bad. And wanting to bring an existence into life isnt bad.

Well it's bad if you cant support yourself or a future life properly. That's the ignorance and failing. From the individual, not from life.

Blah... Ihate projective negative thinking onto other people, and future people. Worry about yourselves... that's kinda where it's at in my opinon.


ps this stupid notion that having a child will bring you close to an understanding of what life is all about is rediculous. It 's an aspect of life. Children can by association and proximity to you re-ignite your own flare and spark for life on a more humble and innocent level sure. But you dont have children for that. That's selfish. That's destructive. In anycase.. topics like this to me are subtle back doors to asking whats the point in life, whats the meaning in it. Fuck the children just ask that shit for yourself instead of using children as a proxy face for your own fears and questions on life.

 

[me myself and i]

EH? omg what the hell is wrong with people? Obviously you dont want a child. Fair enough.. you dont understand.. it's not souly for you, it's about having a life that's new and giving it the best that you can, and watching it grow and live its own life. Knowing youll always be there for it and there to someday walk beside it. It's not perfect, but jesus christ... Who the heck wants a child for themself souly? I'd tell them to get a puppy.. actually no, id tell them to get a friend. Children arent a means to an end of self importance and happyness. It's a life, a continuation and a liberation into this life. And life can and is SHIT, but life is also Beautiful and fun, and loving.

Excuse me mate but you are blinded BY the possibility of someone living a miserable life because .... ''insert your own personal issue with life here''. Just reverse logic you're subjecting other people to. It's like..common. You're picking a negative side to it. Lifes what you make of it. Lifes not always miserable, lifes not always happy. It's life, and we make do as best as we can. With children? You can make their life better and share the best bits with them, and your own personal understandings of the worst bits so you can help them deal with it easier. I wouldnt take an experience of pain away from a child in concept{depends what it is}, but i'd always be there to help them through it and to see the best parts of life. Get knocked down, get up. blah blah blah blah

I thought the whole post was great, but going to highlight this bit, because its bang on.

 

[poisonedresistance]

people use the naivety and innocence of children as a way to build walls,,, instill rules' quell societies actions...

they dont take the time to appreciate it,,, admire it

its a quality we loose all too quickly

 

[Isabel]

In anycase.. topics like this to me are subtle back doors to asking whats the point in life, whats the meaning in it. Fuck the children just ask that shit for yourself instead of using children as a proxy face for your own fears and questions on life.

Well said :stars: Amen brother!

 

[pppqp]

*sighs* Your reasoning is the result of naivety (excessive optimism) which no one can talk you out of it. So I'll let it rest there. However, you might want to read posts in the whole Suicide Forum to see how many people wish they were never been born. Some of them may have already committed suicide and some of them have been living in agony for years. What if your child happened to be one of these people? Well, you may shrug and say that there's nothing you can do about it because you have done the best for this child, because you have been selflessly raised him/her all your life, because you have given your love since the moment he/she was born.
Just ask those people yourself. Do they feel like learning the balance of life?

 

[justMe7]

*sighs* Your reasoning is the result of naivety (excessive Pessimism) which no one can talk you out of it.

:tongue:

Believe me mate... i have and do read posts. Way to make an argument though. Shall we dance later? Or are we actually going to start talking about how shit life is, specifically. It's like youve got this side point you're trying to make out future lives, when really,.. it's about your life, the individuals life that is the issue.

If my child happened to be depressed? Well fuck me, why? You freaken jump from point to Glossy statments to WEIRD situations. If my child was depressed, there would be reasons. There would be ways to reach them, and there would be ways of showing them the better parts of life.

Well, you may shrug and say that there's nothing you can do about it because you have done the best for this child, because you have been selflessly raised him/her all your life, because you have given your love since the moment he/she was born.

I dont know where this came from, I can only assume it's either from personal experience or some conjured estimation of my mentality from what I posted. Either way, no parent who is a parent shrugs off their children. If they do, their not a parent.

And your question at the end is honestly constructed off the backbone of that part I quoted. Makes me wonder how you view parents and children in general. Is this a parental issue or a life issue?

 

[poisonedresistance]

*sighs* Your reasoning is the result of naivety (excessive optimism) which no one can talk you out of it. So I'll let it rest there. However, you might want to read posts in the whole Suicide Forum to see how many people wish they were never been born. Some of them may have already committed suicide and some of them have been living in agony for years. What if your child happened to be one of these people? Well, you may shrug and say that there's nothing you can do about it because you have done the best for this child, because you have been selflessly raised him/her all your life, because you have given your love since the moment he/she was born.
Just ask those people yourself. Do they feel like learning the balance of life?

Yes, then ask them how many of them have loving parents,, how many dont blame their parents for how things are, what sort of issues are involved here???
Are you that naive to think everyone here is the same? we all have our own reasons, or a combination of things that led to this moment. its our lives experiences that bought us here, sure some people had bad parents and they are the reason they are here but i guarantee it isn't all of them.

Im here,, somedays i wish i wasn't but then i look on the good ive done and things i continue to do and I am glad I am here.

people are here because they want support and help through difficult times, not because they want to die,, they want help in finding reasons to live.
You can also ask EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has said they wish they had never been born,,, on a good day when they are NOT feeling low and im sure they will tell you different.

 

[peacelovingguy]

Having kids makes sense.

You have people who care about you when you are old - and when it comes down to it - its either that or the state!

It is a trade off - you have insurance with children - and people in their 30s and 40s who have already had kids have settled down a little now - they have the reassurance that someone would visit in hospital.

It is fashionable not to have children - careers and so on. Government is telling us not to have so mant kids to save them money! lol - and llol - BAD advice people!!!!

For women its a biological clock - for men ours runs longer - I can father a child at my age - but it would have made more sense when younger.

But - obviously (for a man) you need the right woman - just impregnating someone for he sake of it - would be insane!!! You got to have love there first. However sometimes lust works first and we have to grow to love a woman if we get her pregnant. It happens. In fact years ago a lot of couples did just 'get along' and made more of an effort in making marriages work.

I think most women who pursue a career for so long they cannot have kids - usually regret it. Even if you save lots of money - it can vanish with a spate of bad luck and illness - then the state cares for us - and frankly - I don't intend to fall into that relationship.

OK - if your young and think your parents are selfish for having you - you got me there lol! You think that now - but its not a nice thought.

Even if you were born with no arms and legs - life is life - we might only have this - so be thankful for being born.

And if your young - aged between 18-26 - why beat around the bush for a couple of decades dating and randomly copulating?

Choose someone - and raise a few children.

Then when your 40 - you'll have more Christmas presents!

And people who do give a s*** about you.

In the end - you have a little circle of trust - might be one person in it - but the more the merrier.

Family matters.

Sometimes families are bad - no doubt. But sometimes your young - angry and the way you see parents is shaped by depression - maybe you resent them a little - which is understandable but flawed!

The government wants you to have no children and pay lots of tax and claim little back.

So have lots of kids - they will protect you - the government will steal your pension and savings - throw you in a home and drain every penny.

 

[pppqp]

Yes, then ask them how many of them have loving parents,, how many dont blame their parents for how things are, what sort of issues are involved here???
Are you that naive to think everyone here is the same? we all have our own reasons, or a combination of things that led to this moment.

It doesn't matter what reasons you have. Everybody suffer because of different reasons. Of course, nobody is the same!

You know what, no life no pain. As simple as that. More than 1 million people kill themselves each year. Just answer this question: how do you know that you child will not eventually be one of them?

There's no way you can know!! You're playing with chance. If you got lucky, your child would lead a happy life. But what if you weren't lucky? Can you answer this question too?

Don't say this is a subjective opinion of mine. Also answer this question: why do 1 million people kill themselves every year? Are they glad they were ever born?

 

[me myself and i]

Don't say this is a subjective opinion of mine. Also answer this question: why do 1 million people kill themselves every year? Are they glad they were ever born?

Ermmm, not sure of the figures now, but i reckon there are another 5,999 million in the world at least. Far more die from peoples unkindness, war, disease and poverty.
There will always be heartache and there will always be contentment.
I know where i am heading and if i can give some contentment to my two wonderful children, who so far, regardless of life and what it has chucked at them........have a capacity to love and be loved.
I have had an idea, i will try to do the right thing today and maybe tomorrow will be ok.

Could say one baby step at a time i suppose.

 

[Isabel]

You know what, no life no pain. As simple as that. More than 1 million people kill themselves each year. Just answer this question: how do you know that you child will not eventually be one of them?

Life offers no guarantee, only possibilities. Either we accept this or we don't. Each life affirming act takes hope and courage, a realistic courage in the face that failure is and always will be stalking in the bush. The very nature of life is to take that risk in its desire to keep going and to grow. And that striving is innate in each creature which is born into this world. We walk the thin line between creation and destruction, always. When the first aquatic animal decided to take a stroll on the land, you bet it took a chance. Without that willingness to beat the odds and to unfold, there is no growth possible and death becomes a certainty. Considering that it all started from the first simple strands of RNA which appeared about 4.5 billions year ago, to now, with sentient beings able to look back at the universe, to love, to create, it ain't that bad a recipe after all. Sentience is the biggest winning lottery ticket in the universe, its our admission to the biggest show in existence. Being a parent is one of the most tangible expression that life is indeed, a gift, even if they are a few strings attached to it. Even if our big, complex brain has so many chances to get all confused and messed up to the breaking point. I swear, people should spend more time outdoor to realize how mindbogglingly the world is beautiful.

 

[poisonedresistance]

It doesn't matter what reasons you have. Everybody suffer because of different reasons. Of course, nobody is the same!

You know what, no life no pain. As simple as that. More than 1 million people kill themselves each year. Just answer this question: how do you know that you child will not eventually be one of them?

There's no way you can know!! You're playing with chance. If you got lucky, your child would lead a happy life. But what if you weren't lucky? Can you answer this question too?

Don't say this is a subjective opinion of mine. Also answer this question: why do 1 million people kill themselves every year? Are they glad they were ever born?

I dont believe it is a game of chance.
I dont play chess with my kids, just as God doesnt play dice with the universe.

I was sexually assaulted when I was 6, this was an opportunistic random element in my life. IT DOESNT define who I am.

Bad things happen, sometimes people cannot move on but sometimes people can.

There is no finite law to dictate either way.

ok so 1 million people estimated die from suicide each year,,,,According to UNFPA there were 130 million babies born in 2005,,, that was 6 years ago!

im not that great at math but im prity sure the odds are in favor of the happy ones.

regardless of any of this, i dont think a couple of self absorbed people with a history of suicidal tendencies is ever going to convince the 9 billion or so other people on the planet to stop having babies.

but you may have enough folk to create a special little club,, just for you guys.