Help me Understand

Discussion in 'I Have a Question...' started by Forgotten_Man, Aug 11, 2013.

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  1. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    So I need some help understand something. I do not understand why everyone tells me that I need to seek therapy.

    I tell people that I see no reason to pursue human relationships. I see other humans as a nuisance at best. Some have a mild and extremely hard to obtain use. Otherwise I see no reason to even care that they are there. All I want to do is hide in my apartment quietly emerging to go to the gym and get food. Then return to the apartment where I can quietly wait for my cat to die so I can kill myself.

    I do not understand why this is seen as wrong with avoiding these annoyances who's only interest in me is siphoning money from me or giving out some charity pity. So I really need someone to explain to me why I need to waste thousands of dollars and many long pointless years attempting to get brainwashed. When I can patiently wait for my cat to die alone and ease the misery with stuff I enjoy.
  2. pancake111

    pancake111 Well-Known Member

    Humans are social beings, so when someone is very antisocial, it raises alarms. Especially when they want to die. Whether they actually want you to get help or are just saying you should go to therapy I don't know.
  3. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    So my mistake was to actually tell people?
  4. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Everyone forms their own opinions from what they read.

    Many read and reply to the post that's in front of them - and if it's not clear about the socialising - they'll give a response according to what they know/support they can offer. You've been a member here for 7 years and are looking to understand why people offer suggestions of therapy, when it's a pro-life support forum? Maybe they don't know quite what to say and are offering what they know as a possibility of help?

    Your opinion is that humans are a nuisance - where did that originate?
  5. pithrania

    pithrania Active Member

    If you're truly happiest when you're alone I don't see what the problem is, some people just enjoy their own company better than others.
    People tell you you should seek therapy because most people don't like being alone, so they can't understand how you're feeling.
  6. pickwithaustin

    pickwithaustin Staff Alumni

    My take on this is that it is for the very reasons that you stated that you should seek some help/therapy. That said, not wanting to be around people and enjoying solitude in that of itself is not anything horrible. Many people are like that and they live happy lives. It is the wanting to die portion of your scenario, however, that is what probably leads people to think that therapy might be an option you could explore.
  7. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    It always has been around, I just kept it on the sideline for a while. However, I am tired of keeping it there to save peoples feelings. So I am taking off the sidelines.

    Gotcha leave out my suicidal intentions and people will stop telling me to get therapy and jump back their usual routine of "Well if that is what you want".
  8. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    You came to this site for a purpose and are still here 7 years later. The people may come and go, but the basics remain. Now a few of us understand you have these intentions - are we likely to stop trying to offer the support through the nature of this site even though you may omit the intentions?

    As for the humans being a nuisance always being around - that is an opinion you have formed at some point in time, true? Therefore it's less likely to have "always" been around (as that would require you knowing that from birth - not possible with the human set up) - is it borne of experiences you have had (perhaps the view of women as I noted in an earlier thread of yours), or what you learned from others around you (possibly a mix of both)?

    You want out of the human life. Is there categorically nothing that anyone could ever say to perhaps encourage you to look at how you are potentially being a reason certain things haven't gone your way, before going down the potential route of "no way back"?
  9. Acy

    Acy Mama Bear - TLC, Common Sense Staff Member Safety & Support

    What sticks out to me is that you say you're "hiding" in your apartment. Hiding suggests that maybe you don't want to be involved so you don't get hurt. Which suggests that maybe you've been hurt before. I also think that interactions can offer more than just taking your time and money - but if you've had bad experiences, I can appreciate that's your current take on life. That brings us to the idea of therapy. Talking out your inclination to isolate yourself could clarify if you truly prefer to be alone, or if there are some older issues that hold you back from interacting and enjoying the company of others. The choice is yours how you live. I would hope that you could find at least some companionship that would give you a level of satisfaction you don't find on your own. :)
  10. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    Correct I came to this place years ago when I first started seriously thinking about suicide. The fact that I am here shows that I at least think about suicide. I just want to know why people are still telling me to get therapy when I tell them that humans are a nuisance.

    Correct my views have been developed over time. Humans as a nusiance have been around... probably since... second grade... I am not kidding. I have been singled out pretty much since pre-school and picked on. The view on females is not as long lasting as I have to be capable of reproduction before I can really form those views. However, correct my experiences in life have shaped these ideas. They have both been around for more than a decade.

    I have wasted plenty of time trying to figure out why things have not gone my way. There is no point in wasting another 20 years gaining skills I should have gained as a child just so I can fall apart and die. I might as well die.

    I have my cat, once she is gone I will have no reason to keep on living. I see no reason to pay someone to talk to me either. I might as well go buy females drinks at the bar or a hooker. At least then sex would be involved. Not just someone trying to brainwash me.
  11. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Hmm... Sounds like you are so deep in your mindset - that no true amount of support or ideas are likely to ever bear fruit.

    Can I be blatantly honest? If you have an interest in animals - volunteer at a zoo or an animal shelter?

    Since you've made up your mind that humans are a nuisance from such an early age - are you ever likely to consider maybe taking a different approach - because the one you've had has probably been what's held you back from developing lasting relationships? Or are you stuck in the mindset of "my way is the right way/only way" - which is not necessarily going to be the one that works?

    People turn their lives around at all ages - whether in deep depressions/suicidal excessively or as normal as defined by society. What is really stopping you from ditching the attitude you have and giving life a blitz - I'm not religious so i'm a "You only live once" character. Make the best of what you can get from it - who knows where the adventure could take you?
  12. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    You know it is funny people will always tell me to not give up, but they are the first to give up on me.

    I like cats yes, but I know that at an animal shelter I will be forced to do all the chores and sit at a desk and not what I want to do which is play with the cats and care for them while they are incarcerated. It will just be cleaning litter and filling bowls, which I do not mind, then sitting at the desk trying to get them adopted, which I do not really want to do.

    I am plenty open to taking a different approach, should sufficient evidence be provided. I know that is an unreasonable request, but that is how I am. Because as was said earlier, we are shaped by our experiences. When you experience trusting someone and then betrayal 3 to 5 times before you are 12... well they have a saying "Fool me once shame on you... fool me twice"... what was it again?

    What is stopping me from ditching the attitude is not understanding why all my previous attempts failed. I guess that is because I am too stupid to see what I did wrong. Then again, people like to say "these things take time". Well I hate taking 3 to 5 years when someone else only took one with the same or less effort. Right now the only thing stopping me from killing myself is my cat. I figure she only has 7 years at most I can suffer until then. Maybe life can provide me with a reason to live in that time. Though I doubt it will and I will blow my brains all over the wall so I no longer have to exist.
  13. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    As things stand - I haven't given up. Even though we may disagree on things at times - which is a natural human concept anyway - I'm still replying.

    Not everyone will do things the same way - and sometimes people need longer and more effort to get to places. I can use an example that for me, mental arithmetic (good old times tables) - took me a lot less time than some of my peers (and many others too), to get around. Was the only thing that I was truly any good at and got me all manner of verbal abuse because I was different (I put it down to jealousy). But on the flip side, they all ended up with multiple friends and stuck with them through the years - mine have come and gone - so maybe I got a touch jealous because I wanted a piece of that pie. Nowadays I just say "I'll do things my way, if it takes me longer - so what - I'm still trying".

    I wouldn't say that you are stupid for not noticing what you did "wrong" as to why you are where you are now - perhaps it was just a clash of opinions on a number of experiences that you had your view, and the other person/people had theirs. Another view though - is if you're not prepared to see a therapist/psychologist, regarding the early experiences and possibly unlock more as to why some things may have not worked out, are you ever truly likely to understand fully what it is you do that could be changed? Or - and this is just my opinion - maybe you've not done wrong, and the actions of those around you (not in your control) - are what's brought you to being how you are.

    This line stood out for me - was it family betrayals or all female betrayals of some variety - that has then since played a part later on in your life?

    I'll keep offering support in my limited knowledge ways - and do my best to steer clear of suggesting therapists (but my view is - if you've never tried, how will you ever know if it'll work or not? You're not going to know the answer to that by not trying)
  14. darkdays

    darkdays Active Member

    Hey Forgotten Man, you obviously are trying to reason things out so chew on this, your logic is flawed. What are there, six and a half, maybe seven billion people on the planet and out of all those people you've interacted with what? a few hundred maybe only some of which screwed you over ( if you believe that every one of them did, their innocent deeds, not the ones who hurt you, have been, shall we say, just a tad bit tinted by YOUR bad opinion. So, a few hundred, even if most of them were all bad, out of six or seven billion. I'm no good at math, but what is that? Like a millionth of one percent of the population? If you had done an actual survey with those numbers I don't think you would have impressed too many people with your argument that no one on the planet was worth the paper their birth certificate was printed on. You want to be happy? It's okay to be loner who likes cats more than he does people, as long as you're not making bombs or polishing your sniper rifle. From what you wrote, and I've only read this post, you strike me as an intelligent person. You do the math. If the reason you want to die is because some people have hurt you, give the rest of the world a try, there's a lot of us out there.
  15. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    @darkdays: The rest of you do not deserve a try. The old saying is "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you". Humanity has fooled me one to many times. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it right? I am actually incredibly stupid, because I cannot figure out what 90% of the human population figures out in their childhood. If you cannot master the basics how can you master the more advanced stuff?

    Regardless, humanity does not get another chance. Once my cat dies I will kill myself and all will be right in the world.

    @fighting_the_tide: The question is what is more beneficial, the skills that set me apart from my peers or the skills that set them apart from me. I know that most of my peers are not suicidal like me. Most of them live happy lives where they hate the fact that they have to die. So the question is who is better off and who's skills are more useful. Sadly, I am one who knows that once I turn 40 it is all down hill from there. So what is the point of even reaching that age when you spent your entire life alone before that? At least that is me, why should I just waste away the extra time while they get to be happy?

    My next question is what makes you think an therapist could explain the answers any better? What makes you think that a therapist could undo what has gone wrong? Even better how does one explain factors that I have no control over. Because you know I have not had any success as long as I can remember. I guess that I am just broken from the start.

    I was pretty unaware of females back when I was a kid. However, they were the usual childish betrayals. Kids are nice to me make me trust them then they humiliate or take advantage of me and leave me to rot. It was a very standard thing and that was the most annoying part about it. I was fooled one too many times. So I learned the only thing I could learn. No one is worth the effort to trust.

    I have never tried crack, but plenty of people seem to be willing to keep on paying for it with whatever they are capable of paying with. My problem with therapy is the fact that I can lose thousands of dollars and years of time before I realize that the therapist in question is worthless. It is not like a workout program where I can follow step A, B, and C and then see the results. If I do not see results I can review what I have done and point out the exact issues that have been had. For instance, lets say they I do not follow the diet on a fitness regiment, explaination right there as to why I am failing. As opposed to a therapist who is supposed to be able to manipulate people to help them think what most would consider a proper way.
  16. Acy

    Acy Mama Bear - TLC, Common Sense Staff Member Safety & Support

    Forgotten Man, I feel for you. :hug: When we have tried and have not met with the success we wanted, expected, were told we'd have (and that others seem to have but we don't), it can be frustrating and it can hurt a lot. I don't think you were "broken" from the start or that you are "broken" now. Frustrated, sad, tired, disillusioned by some or perhaps many of your experiences, yes - but not broken.

    "The fool me once" saying certainly has some validity...such as when it is applied to an individual who has already wronged us. I do think it is a somewhat biased outlook if we apply to everyone before we give them the chance to fool use even once, just because someone else fooled us. Still, I know from my own experience that it's hard not to feel proactively self-protective when several people have taken advantage of me or "fooled" me, especially when each has been a separate time I've tried to reach out. Still, I think there are a lot of good people, although sure, there are probably some not so good people.

    Before really putting my heart out there, I have been learning to take more time to get to know people and to figure out what they really want from me. I give them a couple of chances, and if it is not an equal friendship/relationship, I apply the "fool me once" saying. I remain polite and "friendly," but don't offer much of myself to the ones who seem to want to take advantage. The ones who are nice and for real...I'm happy to give of myself to them. BUT IT TAKES A FEW TIMES AND SOME EFFORT (AND EVEN A FEW BUMPS IN THE ROAD FOR ME) to discover who the users are and who the nice ones are. Recently, I ran into a user type - someone who likes me because I have a car. "Could you drive me home today?" "I need a ride from work next week...?" "Let's go for walk, and for ice cream. Pick me up after work and we can go." I'm not letting her in to be my friend. And I'm not picking her up and driving her everywhere. It's kind of amusing...I have taken pains to observe her with others in our crowd now. She uses everyone who lets her...Last time our crowd got together, she rushed away from me because, "Oh, there's John - my chauffeur today." Does she even know she's like that? Anyway, she's out for herself, not for a truly reciprocal friendship. It's not personal or because "I am broken". It is just who she is. SHE is broken.

    You question the value of therapy. Therapy can fill in the gaps in our "childhood education". Therapy offers a safe place to explore those gaps and to learn to understand and do what we didn't as kids. It's a neutral place to go for support while we do this. A therapist is more than a listener, s/he is trained to identify thought patterns, misunderstandings, resulting feelings, and then to guide a client through those to new insights. A therapist can also, if needed, offer new strategies for interacting, coping, and understanding others. I hope a therapist is not there to "manipulate" a client's thinking, but rather to ask questions and make comments that provoke the client to think for him/herself.

    Finding a good therapist can be a challenge, but it's so worthwhile when we find one we click with. You could actually use a first appointment to "interview" him/her. Could you make a list of qualifications and expectations you have of a therapist? What sort of approach you like? What personal qualities you want the therapist to have? Discuss the length and type of therapy with him/her. Set therapy goals. If someone is not willing to discuss these things, maybe he/she is not the therapist for you. A good therapist will want to help you and is likely to be open to a frank discussion of these issues. It puts it all out there for both of you.

    Only you know if being alone is what you actually want, or if being alone is merely your way of ensuring you don't get hurt/used. If you do want interaction and to understand yourself and others, therapy could be a good option. Whatever you decide, I wish you all the best! :)
  17. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Acy - you summed up pretty much what I wanted to reply with. I was just struggling with the structure of the sentences.

    If you don't try something, you'll never know whether it truly has any benefits or not. For diets - you have to try them for a period of time to notice any benefits or not. For gym sessions - again it takes a bit of time of trying to get anywhere near results. The same with therapy - diets and gym sessions are for the physical side - therapy is for the mind.

    I put in "let it all out" - a social troubles thread - in which I tried to fit in with groups of people throughout my life, but that's got a pattern. I tried, then after some time those groups of people "left me" alone. The crux was - I did try - on several occasions. Now I'm at a point where I rarely interact with anyone offline unless I have to - but I still long to at least keep trying. I avoid the interactions for the fear of being hurt (I initiate most of the time and that's frustrating) - so in a long winded way, I am not too far off that particular part of the path you have described. But I want to make the most out of my time on this planet (which I think is a key component for me to keep trying).
  18. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    @Acy: Well the main problem with me is the fact that I am no longer interested in the heart. Like I have said I have given up and there is nothing more for me to feel or want from people other than what can benefit me. So I am no different than that friend of yours who has no car. Well I am different in the sense that I have different things I want from people and only care about the people who give me those things.

    The problem with therapy is the fact that I have no idea what I am supposed to learn or know. If I actually knew what a good therapist was I could just fix myself. Even if I were to interview the person before hand. I have no idea what I would ask them or what I would know is a wrong answer. At the end of the day any therapist, no matter how good or bad, can just say "These things take time" even after several years pass. That is the excuse that they will use for their failure. Hiding behind the idea that Medicine is a practice not a standard. At least if I had a disease I could eventually die.

    @fighting_the_tide:The difference between diets and exercise and therapy is the fact that with diets and exercise I can actually see the progress in many forms. I always advise people to take monthly stats down and then graph them after 6 months. I cannot see that kind of progress with therapy.

    "Don't knock it till you try it" can be used to justify anything and everything. I could go out and rape a girl because I have never done anything like that because I want to understand why people do it. Problem is that phrase can be used to justify someone doing so many things it is almost pointless to even use it. I do not have to really try it to see the results in the case of therapy. After all, I can just read threads on her about how people have been at this for 20+ years and still want to die. That does not make a very good case for therapy.

    I guess you and I differ far too much. There was something in your past which helped you come to the conclusion that you just need to keep trying. As where with me, I came to the conclusions that I just need to give up and vanish from the view of the world. What that difference is doesn't really help me want to just not pass time and hope everyday that my cat dies.
  19. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    What you are saying is that you need solid proof that therapy works before you'd even consider it. But how are you likely to get a true picture of that when bad news travels faster than good? (Ie, people bitch about how it doesn't work for them more than they shout from the rooftops that it works). Bearing in mind the "evidence" you suggest that you see, from people on here who have had 20+ years of experiences of therapy and it not working - is their opinion. They've at least gone out and experienced trying.

    Could they have possibly not told their therapists everything? It's as likely as the therapist not being a good one for them to work with, but the support can only be geared to what's discussed. Same here, support is sought, yet when it's not what someone "wants to hear", they get all defensive over it. (It has been known to happen - not just on this site but i've seen in offline too). Is it also not conceivable that we only get to know on this site - what they want us to know? There's a potential debating area in that alone.

    You're also suggesting that if a therapist would say "These things take time" after several years - that they are using an excuse to mask their failures. Unless known to be a bad therapist (it is possible) - they can only work with what they have been told and how they interpret it all.

    You don't even want to entertain the thought of trying because it's a "waste of money". At least there's a chance of more benefits than there is a chance of an addiction (alcohol, substance misuse), just masking the issue. There's a chance of highlighting issues that may have been blocked out. There's a higher chance of understanding why things don't go the way we would ideally like them to.

    For me - What we differ on is that one of us is someone who tries in spite of hardships rather than someone who finds a reason to backup their lack of trying. You know as well as I do that we are gonna die at some point. Why not give it a go instead of sitting on the proverbial fence - doing comparatively nothing and complaining about the support you are receiving?
  20. Forgotten_Man

    Forgotten_Man Well-Known Member

    @fighting_the_tide: Is it so wrong to ask for proof? I want to know something works before I start it up... I guess that is wrong. I know asking for proof and making sure that something that could eat up thousands of dollars that would be a better refund for my mom is a bit much to do, but I am going to do it anyway. Plus with how much that can go wrong with therapy and how much money can go to waste. I do not see it as a prudent choice when suicide will benefit more people.

    You are correct we do differ like that as well. However, I am not sitting on the fence I fell onto the side of suicide long ago.
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