heres a tough question

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by HawthornePassage, Sep 20, 2011.

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  1. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    what if you actually rationally know that your life will not improve and the great voids will not close thru rock solid, unclouded long term judgment and analysis instead of just feeling miserable or something? should you just keep going because people say you should without actually having any clue what theyre on about? what if your level of judgment is better than 'normal' people anyway

    what right do people have to say this kind of stuff, its like people jump on the bandwagon and think that because some people are just in an impulsive state that all of them are

    maybe we should start questioning the outlook and judgment of those who are 'happy' with their lives, what a crock of shit. how dare people who dont understand these areas at all cast judgments about them, and not only that, but act like their judgments are the solely correct all-overriding ones....to add insult to injury if you challenge these judgments theyre correct and youre just trying to cause trouble or insensitive for not going with the crowd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2011
  2. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve Active Member

    Can you give me a hypothetical scenario, an example of a person in a specific situation that might force that person to be convinced rationally that dying is actually a better alternative than living?

    The one thing about dying is that it's irreversible (whatever change takes place after death, the biological cesation of life is a one way process.) So if you want to be able to decide rationally that dying is the way to go about things, you would need to have data that you can't possibly have. In any case, you would be taking a gamble. Do you believe in a God, for example?

    I understand your question because I've thought about it myself before, what I'm saying is that there is no easy answer (perhaps there is no answer at all available to us.)
     
  3. Isabel

    Isabel Staff Alumni

    hummm...I think nobody knows what will happen. Life can be so surprising. Although when depressed, we can feel that there is no way out. I think happy people can also talk from experiences when they say you never know what good stuff might be around the corner or that there is something to learn out of the bad stuff. Some of the most serene people I have met were old folks who had some very difficult experiences and made it through the other side with a sense of hopefulness and joy. I often take cues from my husband. He grew up in poverty, is a war veteran, lost both his parents, his twin brother to cancer, been though a nasty divorce where he lost everything, is in chronic pain due to a motorbike accident and still he always look forward in a positive manner. So when he says that all is not lost because of a setback or a tragedy, I can hardly say that he is full of shit. His philosophy of life helped me a lot changing my perception of life and getting out of my depression.
     
  4. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    yeah but what right do we have to *force* people to assume that things will turn out that way

    and this isnt about someone being depressed

    and um relatively rational at least. if you have a 95% chance of slowly being burned to death but a 5% chance of being rescued by firefighters most would jump and most people wouldnt consider that crazy
     
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  5. peacelovingguy

    peacelovingguy Well-Known Member

    Well - you cannot really rationally know anything about the future - because there are too many variations - too much could happen for anyone to say "there is no future for me"

    But - for some - through illness or whatever - maybe cancer - you might well have no future apart from a VERY limited window.

    Most of us mate - we're simple creature - with simple needs.

    I think the psych hospitals are filled with people who needed love - to be cared for and to care for others. In modern society we are told to think of ourselves - well - all well and good - but I'm telling anyone out there who is reading - that if you only care for yourself - you will end up hating yourself.

    Friendship, love, companionship, comradeship - we need those connections.

    The world sucks - but we make our own little world usually a family - but whoever you got - as long as you got one person who gives a damn for you - be thankful indeed.

    As for happiness - sure many people pretend and live lives which might have the appearance of happiness. I live in a poor area but see many people happy - because they have people who love and care for them.

    so if you have no money and feel bad - don't worry - rich people also kill themselves - so money will not save you - but can help with treatments - better class of psych hospital perhaps. Or worse!

    Living life for 'me' - has no point really.

    I never put myself first.

    I've never attempted suicide ever.

    Thought about it - but also thought about kidnapping my ex boss and sending vids to youtube - maybe work a deal out - lol. Sure - thought about lots of crazy insane stuff - even marriage - but she hated guitars - history prevailed and the guitars won - and I will marry them - I'd 'mate' with them and have baby guitars - but alas - my luck? I'd get a splinter and be the first man to have wood-worm - er - hmmm, best end this now - I'm burying a hole for myself.

    What's new - right?

    So to summarise - yes life sucks - but - you got diversions like sex, drugs and rock and roll. - religion , education and other stuff.

    Diversions work for a while - but don't think time stands still for any of us - marry young if you can - have a bunch of kids - worry about other stuff later on. You do not have to pay a family to care for you. People you pay to care - well - its like expecting a hooker to love you.

    Start a band - learn something new - or be a rebel - go down in history as someone who - done something fantastic! I aim to do that - God willing! But not just for the ego-trip - that would be demeaning and futile - might as well kill myself IF I was so - messed up to think that!

    30 years thinking about this sh** - hey you got to have some fun - I mean - I want my heart to get happy and my soul to get glad - but - I tried a lot of stuff - and am more focused now - I know what I want - I want the world wrapped up - and left for me to rule it!

    But - sure - ruling the world even I'd lose the plot and have a growing list of 'enemies of the people' - power corrupts - even the power in relationships - be careful that depression does not make you a man who controls women. Nor should you be controlled. I love freedom - anyone who stands in the way of me - and everyone else - and freedom - is not so much an obstacle more like a bowling pin - and you got to whomp those suckers - make em fall!

    With depression - we face NO problem that is exclusive to us. What we do face is a tricky situation in which ANY emotion can spin out of control and lead us to blame ourselves for the woes of the world.

    Be good to those who are good to you - repay kindness with kindness.

    If you can count your true friends on both hands - you are are blessed.

    I've been VERY lucky - I'd hand the keys to my flat to a lot of people - that is how I decide if I trust someone. Depression helps me be a nice person. I'd not swap this for happiness - but I feel I will find happiness. If not I bought a lot of people happiness which is good enough for me. I am cheerful - zen like usually - talk a lot - I mean people here think they are talkers - lol - you aint talked to me. I could talk for England - and have a loud voice - but also my 'classic make people at ease' voice. I studied human behaviour - we're complex - but simple to read. Takes a while but I figure that meeting someone - a few hours later I know if they will be a lifelong friend. I collect friends - treat them - watch out for them - worry and some I see every five years - lol - and I'm always looking younger! How do I do it - easy - all my my mates are married! (just joking to anyone happily married!)

    For most of us - even ONE true friend - that is all you need sometimes.

    But - you got to be a friend to yourself - for a while I thought I sucked - but then I looked in the mirror - and asked myself what made me more attractive. The answer - a facelift - plastic surgery - lol. But - fu** that - its confidence that makes the difference. I'm not Mr Handsome by any means - but I'm the only me - and that matters. God worships the ground I walk on - angels envy me - this is not my ego - I'm not looking out for what is in this for me - I don't care - but if I help others life treats me kind - always. It treats me. Offers me good things. I got to say - I'm grateful - glad to be alive and would not kill myself even if someone gave me 50 million pounds to do it.

    Well - how would I spend it dead? I'd take 200, million - and maybe spend 50 million trying to transplant my brain - or clone it so there would be many 'me's' - the army of me - all over the world- we'd win! I mean - the world would be mine - ours - the clones!

    Guess the other clones might come after me in the end.

    So forget cloning and suicide - best stay alive. Not to see what happens - we got to make things happen - because otherwise - you might have to throw caution to the reckless wind. Not a chance we can take really - but I do it all the time - but its nothing to stay around too long for.

    Did any of that make sense HawthornePassage?

    Random lyrics...

    "The endless sky looked battered and mangled
    the coins in my pocket when jingle jangle
    do you love me?"

    "I got myself a job
    minimum wage my pay
    there I was stacking grocery shelves
    down on my knees
    I looked up so ashamed
    ashamed of what they saw
    a kid with no future
    no future at all"

    lol lyrics - anyone guess this? Come on now!

    "tie me kangaroo down sport
    tie me kangaroo down"
     
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  6. Isabel

    Isabel Staff Alumni

    It depends what part of you dominates you the most under pressure. If the rational sense is your strongest, you think 5% of surviving is better than certain death. So if you have access to water, you grab a cloth, pour water on it and put it on your mouth cause in a fire, the chances is not that you will burn, you'll die of smoke inhalation. You give more time to the firemen to get at you, which they will try their darnest best to do.
     
  7. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    but why is it better than certain death if death is just a neutral, amoral thing? we're assuming here that death is 'bad'. if its just 'nothing' in the end, then its more a comparison between 0 and a negative
     
  8. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve Active Member

    If someone killed someone you loved, wouldn't you be upset? Not just for your own sake, but for the sake of the person that died?

    Death is the absence of life, and of all experiences (good or bad.) Beyond physical death I am not going to speculate.

    Would you really rather not exist?
     
  9. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    i would be upset, but given that it happens eventually, what does it even matter? given that thats not the only factor (it is ONE factor out of many)

    personally, yes, id rather not exist...ie zero
     
  10. jimk

    jimk Staff Alumni

    Hawthorne your thinking seems to be a bit immovable that it can never get any better for yourself.. each to their own i guess..

    truth is many good people on here have gone thru many very rough times and some have come thru to the other side and actually doing much better now..

    truth for them is this too shall pass is their reality.. who's to say this might not also be your reality??? tc. Jim
     
  11. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve Active Member

    Have you never enjoyed life, at all?

    How about bringing joy to other people, helping other people in need, do you see any meaning in that?

    I'm saying this because I think everybody has a very important purpose in life, and existing is a privilege. Life can be unbelievably painful. For me, I have wished many times I were dead, and also thought very much like you do now (that I'd rather not exist, that I'd rather just see the pain go away.) Suicidal thoughts have been a part of me for a very long time, so I can identify with you. But when I examine things rationally, I don't think suicide is a satisfactory solution. In the end, everybody wants to be happy. If you kill yourself you will not be happy. You will not be anything (or, depending on your beliefs, you will be somewhere else unknown, either worse, better, or the same.)

    Keep fighting! Is there anything at all that you think could bring meaning to your life? For me it's taking care of my wife, who right now depends completely on me. If I didn't have this responsibility I honestly don't know what I would have done. Even though I struggle with my Christian faith, and at times I am content and happy with it, when I am in the deepest pain it's difficult to rely alone on faith (I feel very bad saying this, perhaps I need to work on strengthening my faith.)
     
  12. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    no personally, i dont believe there is any way to bring satisfaction to my life (because of who i am). its a bit more than 'very very rough times'
     
  13. chewbacca

    chewbacca Well-Known Member

    No. We're not:duck:
     
  14. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    most of us, not all of us
     
  15. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve Active Member

    It's not who you are, but who you feel you are. Also, who you are and who you can be can be very different things (from many perspectives: mental, physical, emotional, etc.)

    You have to believe things can change and then do something about it. Dwelling in your pain is very destructive and will only bring you ruin.
     
  16. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    its very different than that. might have applied to me 6 years ago. or should i say 60
     
  17. chewbacca

    chewbacca Well-Known Member

    hawthorne

    have you seen the movie Breakfast for Champions?
     
  18. HawthornePassage

    HawthornePassage Well-Known Member

    yeah a few times years ago.

    oh hi chewbacca, glad to see youre still here
     
  19. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve Active Member

    HawthornePassage,

    Find something (or some things) that you can enjoy and be passionate about to occupy your time. Put your focus on those things instead of on thinking how bad things are. If you can at the same time help somebody else, even better. Your life will have then a double purpose (instead of no purpose, which is how you feel now.)
     
  20. chewbacca

    chewbacca Well-Known Member

    its all just a bloody context. life that is. and therefore a lie. context = lie. i wish it was a bit more real. life is just lie with an F in it.
     
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