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How the ‘Opioid Epidemic’ War Kills

#61
research is what demonstrates proof.....and just because "research" is published, does not mean it is "the holy grail."
Yes, but if research needs to be served in the holy grail before someone will take it seriously, they probably have a bias against it.

If the NIH, the WHO, the AHRQ and medicare are all endorsing a treatment as valid, a treatment probably has more than flimsy, or even just single-study support.
 

1964dodge

Has a frog in the family
Forum Pro
SF Supporter
#62
I'm not totally sure I agree with that. People can respond differently to stuff, even vaccines (see all the debate on HPV vaccines for instance). There is no such thing as "everyone will respond the same to this vaccine or medication". The effect or potential side effects isn't set in stone and people can and do respond differently to stuff.

One of my major gripes with people who take medication is they often don't wanna spend 5 minutes reading about it first or check the list of possible side effects I assume most packages of medicine comes with (atleast that's how it is in my country so I might be wrong). It's extremely helpful to spend just a little time trying to understand the reported impacts medicine can have on our bodies. Not lest because we can be aware of potential side effects earlier and see our doctor about it.

Knowing that benzodiazepines has an alcohol-like effect on people's brains because it affects the GABA receptors (although not the exact same receptors) is useful in understanding it's effect, potential addictive properties and problems if being addicted and going cold-turkey (both things can cause life-threating seizures in rare cases for instance).
i not only read the info that comes with a med i also research any new med online for effectiveness side effects, drug interactions etc. and this is any med not just pain meds. and some possible bad interactions/side effects are worth the risk....mike
 

1964dodge

Has a frog in the family
Forum Pro
SF Supporter
#63
ok for everyone in this thread current information on treatments could all be wrong. look at recent history they used bloodletting and leeches to cure people and everyone back then knew it cured people. and now they use maggots to clean some wounds. so basically any alternative treatment no matter how common or bizzare could work or be just plain bunk. and don't forget even a placebo can work some if the person believes it will....
mike the crackpot.
 

Waves

Well-Known Member
#64
I'm not totally sure I agree with that. People can respond differently to stuff, even vaccines (see all the debate on HPV vaccines for instance). There is no such thing as "everyone will respond the same to this vaccine or medication". The effect or potential side effects isn't set in stone and people can and do respond differently to stuff.

One of my major gripes with people who take medication is they often don't wanna spend 5 minutes reading about it first or check the list of possible side effects I assume most packages of medicine comes with (atleast that's how it is in my country so I might be wrong). It's extremely helpful to spend just a little time trying to understand the reported impacts medicine can have on our bodies. Not lest because we can be aware of potential side effects earlier and see our doctor about it.

Knowing that benzodiazepines has an alcohol-like effect on people's brains because it affects the GABA receptors (although not the exact same receptors) is useful in understanding it's effect, potential addictive properties and problems if being addicted and going cold-turkey (both things can cause life-threating seizures in rare cases for instance).
Does anyone on benzodiazepines for years experience withdrawals if go cold turkey?
 

alixer

We are all one
SF Supporter
#65
I will admit I am addicted to sugar. I get headaches when I stop eating refined sugar. I get headaches when I don’t eat refined sugar. Thanks to Dr. Lustig’s book Fat Chance I was able to go two months without refined sugar. Sadly I’m back to eating refined sugar.

It’s been shown sugar is more addictive than cocaine, and transitively more addictive than pain killers. And disease from refined sugar kills more than all the deaths from opioids combined.

If we are going to be unbiased and even-handed, then people should need to get doctor sign-off when they buy refined sugar. But a lot of people don’t want to have an unbiased conversation about what is addictive, or rather how people experience addiction. People would say, “BUT I’M not addicted to refined sugar....” Let me repeat: Refined sugar is considered an addictive substance by doctors. More addictive than cocaine. But people rather demonise opioids, punish chronic pain sufferers and have a “war on” something that can make them feel good about themselves. Sugar should absolutely be a controlled substance. I’m just asking for people not to be hypocritical.
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#66
Y'all have any idea just how high the number of "legitimate pain patients" out there complaining about these new regulations are really addicts afraid of losing their supply? 'Cause I can motherfuckin' guarantee it ain't zero.

How about how many heroin users started out as "legitimate pain patients?" Again, I fuckin' guarantee it ain't zero.

You know what the fuck I see and hear here is a bunch of addicts making excuses for why their addictiction isn't so bad, and shouldn't be illegal. I've watched circles of heroin users cooking up while repeating the exact same fucking talking points.

See, y'all seem to think that there are "pain patients" and "addicts" and that the addicts are ruining life for the rest of you fine folks. In real fuckin' life, the overlap between those two groups is almost 100%. The system, that supposedly worked so great before, was turning pain patients into addicts by lying about addiction potential, by encouraging doctors to overprescribe, and by criminilazing the entirely predictable responses from the newly created addicts rather than going after their suppliers, that way they could brainwash you, yes, you personally, into believing that your fellow citizens are the problem rather than the multi-national corporations that have been raking in billions and trillions of dollars over the decades from the misery and death of regular people just like you.

What really makes me fucking sick is how easy a time they're having doing it.

Y'all keep bringing up your pain, so I'm gonna declare mine fair game as well.

I had to come home and find my wife dead. With vomit all over her, and hair plastered all over her face, this last sight of my wife was by far the most horrifying I've ever fucking seen, and that's after a lifetime of pretty horrifying shit.

My wife, who told every homeless person in the neighborhood to come by for a sandwich whenever they wanted, even though we were on welfare ourselves, and who would hide as many people in our garage as she could whenever it rained or got cold. My wife, who would take in any stray animal she saw, because she hated the thought of any creature in pain. My wife, who would just give you the pills she was so addicted to if she thought you really needed them. The kindest person I've ever known, who ended up dead, like that, and all the while billionaires like the Sackler family are laughing their asses off because they're making their money off the death of people just like her and have you convinced that those people are the problem, just a bunch of lowly low-life junkies beneath your notice, while they rake in more and more cash and more and more people continue to die.
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#67
I will admit I am addicted to sugar. I get headaches when I stop eating refined sugar. I get headaches when I don’t eat refined sugar. Thanks to Dr. Lustig’s book Fat Chance I was able to go two months without refined sugar. Sadly I’m back to eating refined sugar.

It’s been shown sugar is more addictive than cocaine, and transitively more addictive than pain killers. And disease from refined sugar kills more than all the deaths from opioids combined.

If we are going to be unbiased and even-handed, then people should need to get doctor sign-off when they buy refined sugar. But a lot of people don’t want to have an unbiased conversation about what is addictive, or rather how people experience addiction. People would say, “BUT I’M not addicted to refined sugar....” Let me repeat: Refined sugar is considered an addictive substance by doctors. More addictive than cocaine. But people rather demonise opioids, punish chronic pain sufferers and have a “war on” something that can make them feel good about themselves. Sugar should absolutely be a controlled substance. I’m just asking for people not to be hypocritical.
Um, yeah, actually, I agree that refined sugar should be illegal or at least tightly regulated, for the exact same reasons. It's billionaires making even more money off of death while convincing regular people that the problem is fatties (read: addicts) who can't control themselves, when they knew right from the fucking start that their product would be creating addicts.
 

Ash600

Of dust and shadows
SF Creative
SF Supporter
#68
See, y'all seem to think that there are "pain patients" and "addicts" and that the addicts are ruining life for the rest of you fine folks. In real fuckin' life, the overlap between those two groups is almost 100%
fellow citizens are the problem rather than the multi-national corporations that have been raking in billions and trillions of dollars over the decades

This I can testify to. There's been many patients I've had to deal with who've become addicted due to overprescribing or irresponsible prescribing by doctors exhibiting lackadaisical professionalism as well as it being an issue despite genuine and diligent prescribing.

As for the multinationals, their only concerns are for their shareholders. In terms of ethics, there's little separating the pharmaceutical industry from either the tobacco or petroleum industries. I've seen how they operate (big pharma) and at times it beggars belief at the shit they get up to.
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#69
To clarify: of course I don't want people to be in pain. I believe recent regulations have been an overcorrection to a real problem. I believe this overcorrection is causing real harm.

The problem I have is people buying into the narrative that big pharma is pushing (seriously, look at some of their internal memos that have become public) that a bunch of addicts just apparently showed up out of nowhere and started taking advantage of the system and ruined things for all the decent legitimate patients out there when, in reality, they knew from the start that they would be turning regular "decent legitimate" patients into addicts through their deceptive practices.

This is not conjecture on my part. They have been convicted in court of the exact things that I accuse them of. But, apparently "damn scum-fucking-junkies ruined it for the rest of us" is still somehow an easier pill to swallow for most people (so to speak). I'm guessing because it allows them to maintain their sense of superiority, rather than admitting that they were duped like everyone else.
 

1964dodge

Has a frog in the family
Forum Pro
SF Supporter
#70
i agree in part to what you say @Gonz but obviously have my own opinion no offence. so i'll go by my points one at a time and you can feel free to criticize them.

1. big pharma did entice doctors and pain clinics to prescribe as much as possible and had incentive for them to do so. they knew what they were doing and knew it would create a nation of addicts.

2. hard drug users become heroin addicts because of prescription meds they were on. this is true in too many cases. it's not the addicts fault it is the prescribing doctors fault. any doctor should monitor a patient closely while on the opioids and if they can come off then monitor them when they are coming off and if they have trouble then get them help. some doctors prescribe and don't give a shit these are bad doctors. then there are doctors like mine. he monitors me closely including 2 or 3 piss tests a year. he know i don't abuse my meds and he trusts me but he makes sure i'm doing ok with my meds.

3. blaming addicts. i am not against any addict. i'm just upset how they lumped deaths together with heroin and prescription meds making it look like the prescription meds were the problem. and they admitted they inflated the numbers.

4. aftermath. i am sorry for what happened to your wife, it's criminal and these big pharma should be charged with thousands of deaths and be jailed. but they swung the pendulum way too far. pain patients are commiting suicides by the thousands because they can't get adequate pain relief. i am now severely restricted to what i can do because they cut my dose by around 75 %, i used to be fairly high functioning. if i lost my opioid meds i would 100% commit suicide, i couldn't live with pain that high. what my doctor did and most doctors should is try a lot of non opioids first. i went through two years trying meds before i finally went on opioids and a pain clinic advised my doctor.

5. one of the problems was pill mills. you just went into a clinic and say your elbow hurts and you get oxys. florida was full of them. they would get their meds and crush and snort them or sell them right there in the parking lot. pain patients should get the meds they need but it needs to be controlled. and big pharma has to be held accountable

6. it is a proven fact that almost all legitemate pain patients use their pain meds responsibly. they do not sell or abuse their meds. one of the big problems is when they prescribe for short term of months. the people don't need them after the injury heals. usually a doctor won't monitor a patient afterwards and that's how a lot of people end up on street drugs

mike
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#71
1. big pharma did entice doctors and pain clinics to prescribe as much as possible and had incentive for them to do so. they knew what they were doing and knew it would create a nation of addicts.
Agreed.

2. hard drug users become heroin addicts because of prescription meds they were on. this is true in too many cases. it's not the addicts fault it is the prescribing doctors fault. any doctor should monitor a patient closely while on the opioids and if they can come off then monitor them when they are coming off and if they have trouble then get them help.
Agreed, close monitoring and help weaning off (when appropriate) should come as part of every opiod prescription

3. blaming addicts. i am not against any addict. i'm just upset how they lumped deaths together with heroin and prescription meds making it look like the prescription meds were the problem. and they admitted they inflated the numbers.
Here's where I may partly disagree with you. The reason why the deaths were "lumped together" was because, there are no "heroin addicts" and "prescription addicts." There are simply opiate addicts. Opiate addicts do not turn to heroin to get a greater high, most would prefer the prescription stuff if available, they go for heroin simply because it's easier to access. Ultimately, there were no "prescription addicts dying" and "heroin addicts dying," there were simply "opiate addicts dying" and it was the overprescribing of prescription opiates that was creating the problem.

5. one of the problems was pill mills. you just went into a clinic and say your elbow hurts and you get oxys. florida was full of them. they would get their meds and crush and snort them or sell them right there in the parking lot. pain patients should get the meds they need but it needs to be controlled. and big pharma has to be held accountable
Agreed, this is where the focus should be, shutting down places like this, not on creating "one size fits all" blanket regulations that are meant to apply to all docs and all patients and rarely work for either.
 

alixer

We are all one
SF Supporter
#72
Y'all have any idea just how high the number of "legitimate pain patients" out there complaining about these new regulations are really addicts afraid of losing their supply? 'Cause I can motherfuckin' guarantee it ain't zero.

How about how many heroin users started out as "legitimate pain patients?" Again, I fuckin' guarantee it ain't zero.

You know what the fuck I see and hear here is a bunch of addicts making excuses for why their addictiction isn't so bad, and shouldn't be illegal. I've watched circles of heroin users cooking up while repeating the exact same fucking talking points.

See, y'all seem to think that there are "pain patients" and "addicts" and that the addicts are ruining life for the rest of you fine folks. In real fuckin' life, the overlap between those two groups is almost 100%. The system, that supposedly worked so great before, was turning pain patients into addicts by lying about addiction potential, by encouraging doctors to overprescribe, and by criminilazing the entirely predictable responses from the newly created addicts rather than going after their suppliers, that way they could brainwash you, yes, you personally, into believing that your fellow citizens are the problem rather than the multi-national corporations that have been raking in billions and trillions of dollars over the decades from the misery and death of regular people just like you.

What really makes me fucking sick is how easy a time they're having doing it.

Y'all keep bringing up your pain, so I'm gonna declare mine fair game as well.

I had to come home and find my wife dead. With vomit all over her, and hair plastered all over her face, this last sight of my wife was by far the most horrifying I've ever fucking seen, and that's after a lifetime of pretty horrifying shit.

My wife, who told every homeless person in the neighborhood to come by for a sandwich whenever they wanted, even though we were on welfare ourselves, and who would hide as many people in our garage as she could whenever it rained or got cold. My wife, who would take in any stray animal she saw, because she hated the thought of any creature in pain. My wife, who would just give you the pills she was so addicted to if she thought you really needed them. The kindest person I've ever known, who ended up dead, like that, and all the while billionaires like the Sackler family are laughing their asses off because they're making their money off the death of people just like her and have you convinced that those people are the problem, just a bunch of lowly low-life junkies beneath your notice, while they rake in more and more cash and more and more people continue to die.
Sorry for your loss. But of course overlaps don't happen in 100% levels. I don't deny there is overlap and that these substances should be controlled. I'm just saying as there is too much bias injected into the issue. I'm not directing this to you, btw. I'm just saying there is a bias against people addicted to illegal drugs, there is bias against people addicted to legal drugs, there is bias against people who are in chronic pain, there is bias against doctor prescribing pain medication. I don't understand why bias needs to go into any discussion. Of course, eliminating bias is impossible but identifying it isn't. The only thing all these biases do is cloud a clear-headed discussion and punish innocent bystanders. People in chronic pain who do not find relief when everything else is exhausted feel like criminals when they go to the pharmacy, and doctors who have gigantic hearts and got into the profession for the right reasons and are prescribing medicines as they should be face incredible stigma from colleagues and society for doing what they feel is their human duty: to relieve pain in as ethical a way as possible. Pain management doctors go into the profession knowing they will be viewed on par with drug dealers. That's sick. Can people not see how sick it is that well meaning and people in pain are being viewed on par with illegal drugs addicts -- because that's what happens when you include heroin in the opioid death statistics: you are saying these group of people are in the same group. And again, it's not about stigmatising people addicted to illegal drugs, either. The point is that that is a separate issue that requires as much compassion and focus.

Let's drop the labels, again not directed to you. Let's invite people affected into the room. Let's leave the door open for admitting we don't know what's the best course of action. Let's admit no one knows everything. Let's admit we need to do better. Let's admit we need to be better. And if you can't do that, for whatever reason, people have a lot on their plates, then stay out of the discussion. You're not helping, and you need to know that.
 

Aurelia

🔶🔸✴ 👑 ✴🔸🔶
#74
Can people not see how sick it is that well meaning and people in pain are being viewed on par with illegal drugs addicts -- because that's what happens when you include heroin in the opioid death statistics: you are saying these group of people are in the same group. And again, it's not about stigmatising people addicted to illegal drugs, either
That's exactly what you're doing here. Stigmatizing. You're implying that pain patients are somehow superior to those addicted to illegal drugs, and that the two shouldn't be lumped together. Both are opiates and the two groups of people overlap on many levels. That's why they're lumped together.
 

Aurelia

🔶🔸✴ 👑 ✴🔸🔶
#75
Pain patients who resent heroin users--if they were ever in a situation where they were in immense pain, and the only thing available to relieve that pain was heroin, which they knew would take it away in an instant, how many of them do you think would take it? Does that suddenly make them criminals? Or just desperate and in pain?
 

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