I am through with God and Jesus

Discussion in 'Let it all out...' started by poison, Oct 25, 2006.

  1. poison

    poison Well-Known Member

    I am through with being a Christian. I am through following these idotic rules in some ancient book. Let me tell you why...

    What happened when the terroists hijacked the planes and flew them into the twin towers? The event "9/11." Now... I think to myself: If God REALLY cared... would any of this of happened? Or, more to the point, you think this Iraq/USA conflict bullshit would be over now. But it's not. So... these leaves me with two possible conclusions...
    1). God is not all what he is cracked up to be, and is not perfect.
    2). There is no God.

    No matter which you pick, you end up at almost the same exact points. If you choose #1, you've arrived at the point that states, "God is not perfect and he does not care about us. But the bible is God's word, and the bible says God cares. A contradiction." And if you've skipped the theories all together, and chose #2, here is your result, "There is no God. God does not care and the events of today clearly show that."

    And let me tell you... if you think God DOES exist and DOES care, give me a reason why I should care. But don't give me an excuse like, "All people must suffer! All people must go through trial! God wouldn't give us anything we couldn't handle!" Then how come most of us feel overwhelmed? Hmm? Riddle me that, God.
     
  2. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    How can he be not all that he's cracked up to be but not exist? :blink:



    Note: It is your bussiness if you want to give up religion, but remember the negativity might trigger others by bashing...(not saying you are but it seems religious discussions end up turning bad here.)



    ~Carolyn:rose:
     
  3. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni

    Im torn as well. I label myself an agnostic now simply because I dont know whether to believe or not believe. See, I happen to believe in spirits and ghosts, and because of that I cant completely write off the idea of some alternative dimension, whether thats tied to a heaven or a hell, remains a mystery.

    Most of the time if you question christians, or religious people about the existence of god you nearly always get the same answer.

    "You need to have faith".

    Signed.
    Undecided.
     
  4. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    i don't believe in god, I think its a product of love, hope and failure etc perpetuated for reasons of community and social elitism. You can almost live through the bible if your a dreamer whose experienced life. the stories of the bible are played out in mainstream television that you watch since you were born. thats why it feels so accurate even today. I won't get into that much further because my opinions get me in trouble so I try and keep them to myself where possible. though

    I occasionally chuckle to myself whilst watching people pray to God, hyperthetically if I was god, When souls died and passed on, I would reward those who didn't keep bothering me all the time with a place in heaven, those who imposed on our friendship by begging me every day would be sent straight to hell
     
  5. _nu

    _nu Well-Known Member

    way to go
     
  6. thinker

    thinker Guest

    poison and others,

    If you do not find the support you seek among those who strongly believe in God and Jesus due to your beliefs having changed, I would recommend that you seek out those who share your new views. Different people live in different realities, none is more valid than the other. Every group or community has shared values and beliefs which you are required to accept in order to be accepted or supported...it is human nature. None of you will accept or support those who do not share your basic values and beliefs, or especially those who are hostile to them. Even though they may be hostile toward your values or you may perceive them as having no "real" values, in their own reality they may be doing just fine. Everything operates on the same fundamental principles.
     
  7. Syd

    Syd Guest

    If you want to be logical about it, Agnosticism is the way to go. You can't prove or disprove god on empirical terms.
     
  8. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    no you can't, however if one perceives the world in such a way as certainly I do, I cannot entertain the idea of God. It cannot fit my upbringing and my experience. It seems ludicrous. Metaphorically my emotions can accept it in terms of a divine soul to aspire to, but nothing more. I do not have any discrepencies with agnostic people, but I have a distinct problem with a human bieng in todays external world beleiving in creationism over evolution and denying all discoveries. My mind can't fathom that kind of beleif and I view it as immoral and a crime against our reality.

    I have had so many spiritual experiences and immense sensations I can't explain with reality and facts, because the human condition and the immense love we can feel for others sways our bodies and minds in a powerfull and life affirming way. I like to find the root of these experiences, I take my basic understanding of my root from many sources. I feel most at ease with buddhist psycology. That is what lead me to my core, opened my tenderness and enabled me to have faith in humanity. I respect the universe (in particular the Sun and the earth) as more powerfull than the impermanence of human existence and find sharing the essence of bieng with fellow good souls my life blood. I refuse to accept anything that doesn't fit what I have seen and felt untill I have felt it. However the christian people I have encountered, however good there intentions, seem to deny what I have experienced and teach me to have a universal christian view. I could not purge my life in such a way.

    So as thinker so elegantly put, I will find my own kind. Reality does not exist for me atleast on Suicide Forum
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2006
  9. BipoleShy

    BipoleShy Member

    This is a hot button topic, so I won't try and flare up too much of a debate. I just want to give my point of view.

    You don't have to follow any rules. Basically, while you should try and avoid doing things that are 'sinful', the only thing you have to do is trust in Jesus' sacrifice. The reward can't be based on your actions, because no human being can possibly be "good" enough. You don't need to walk on eggshells and pretend to be something you're not. All that does is repress a side of you that one way or the other is going to find its way out.

    You left out a third option. Namely that God does care, but He won't stop us from screwing each other over time and again. While its tough, not being a mindless robot is kind of nice. :)

    We're inheriting the reward of our sinful nature. But God left us with a story that shows He does care. This is going to sound preachy, but whatever. Back in the beginning He created a perfect world without death and suffering. Since then, we've messed it up and now we're dealing with the consequences.

    So, yes we must suffer, but it wasn't part of God's "Master Plan". It has to be a part of His plan now, because its part of what we've created for ourselves, but that doesn't mean He doesn't mind that we suffer, or that He enjoys it or something.

    Its tough for me, I feel kind of hypocritical because when I'm at my most depressed I become so angry with God, and I feel abandoned by Him. But I just thought I'd offer a counterpoint.
     
  10. thinker

    thinker Guest

    BipoleShy,

    If you shy away from debate, then all you're likely to do is give your point of view, which will not change. Do you need to change your point of view? Not necessarily, you might be relatively okay if you stay as you are. However, a person who's ultimate goal is knowledge and understranding goes into a debate accepting the possibility that their view might change. They accept that they know nothing for 100%.

    I found it interesting that you said:

    You might be suprised to find just how much we inherently are like robots, though we are also emotional beings. The robots/programs we have created do have "minds", they are just more simple and do not have a biological/emotional component...yet. Understanding the emotional swtiches is as important as the order of the logically structured information, it is the foundation of the inner structure of our minds. Also, everything that exists from the smallest to the largest ordered structure is an arrangement of information.

    If I came to this planet as an alien being with no preconceived ideas about humans and simply observed them, I would find that they exist with many different software programs or protocols, as it were, in their heads. Each program that functions and sustains life is an equally valid solution to living as a human being at this stage in their development. Similar programs or protocols naturally interface with each other, protocols which are too dissimilar do not interface well or even not at all.

    I began my existence with a similar core program to yours loaded in my head, so I can relate to many of your feelings and perceptions. It is a reality where what God believes is believed to be objectively known, and therefore those who agree with God are to be accepted, while those who do not are to have the thoughts of God explained to them.

    I don't believe that I've become better than you because I've altered my core program, I think I'm still an animal like you and eventually the program of my life will terminate in the same way. However, I do think that I have a more expanded awareness of that which exists because I've stepped far outside the boundaries that were defined for me in the beginning. Sort of like the devil in the Bible, I suppose.
     
  11. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    My view is similar to that atleast. the over coming of 'dirge' if I may so describe it.

    this is kind of flowery, especially as I am not a buddhist (yet!!!) but;

    Buddhism is a blessing brought into our lives by the gentle grace of ancient sages whom we call Buddhas, for their awakening to spiritual reality, or Nyorai, for their bringing relief and liberation into our lives. This blessing is like the all empowering sun that shines upon a pool. In the pool are white lotus flowers, symbolising those who entrust themselves to that grace. The lotuses have their roots in the mud of common human circumstance and fathomless depths of karmic conditioning, yet, under the nurturing influence of the sun, they grow up through the darkness, each reaching its full potential, flowering and bearing fruit in the radiant world above.
     
  12. lebigmac

    lebigmac Well-Known Member

    I myself was raised Christian, and even after all the masses I attended I'm still thinking that maybe God is just a human invention perpetuated through the centuries to make people feel better about death… a Santa Claus for adults, if you will. Maybe when you die, you cease to exist and that’s that. There might not be an afterlife, but it’s hard for most people to accept this. They don’t want to believe their only purpose is to procreate and propagate the human species, which it probably is. Now I’m a very rational thinker, and if you say God and heaven exist, you better supply substantiative proof for me to believe you. In science, a theory cannot be based simply on suppositions; you need to experiment. Why should it be any different for religion? So if God exists, then great. I hope I didn't offend him/her, and I'll try not to murder any people during my time on Earth just in case. If not, that's fine too because when I'm dead I won't know I'm dead.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2006
  13. TearsDropBloodTrickles

    TearsDropBloodTrickles Well-Known Member

    Did you ever consider that God is so great... that you just arent capable of understanding his reasoning ?
     
  14. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    yes, but I demand a better understanding of the world than "god did it". But thats just me. Others find comfort knowing they can pass away bad happenings as a product of an all knowing deities wishes. If we can't see who makes these things happen, we as the people should demand a more coherant answer to why soldiers have to go to war to protect us from another God we don't believe in. Life is precious imo
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2006
  15. Syd

    Syd Guest

    Well, some people simply acknowledge God as a higher power that has no concern for human nature, or simply has no direct purpose within our lives. Deists for example may think of God simply in terms of Aristotle's "un-moved mover".. as a source of all events in the universe, that is beyond logic and can't be understood in human terms, but not necessarily that this God is even intelligent or even remotely like humans in any way at all.

    I'm okay with people who want to think of a God on those terms, as long as they don't take it too seriously. When someone begins dictating their religious beliefs to others as fact, that's when religion becomes dangerous. Considering the unfathomable size of the universe (and given the fact that so much must exist beyond our 5 human senses and simple brains) it seems to me that any human drawing conclusions about the origins of life and the universe at this point in time must be fueled by arrogance and self-importance to some extent, whether consciously or not. Analyzing the universe with a human brain is a lot like trying to study atoms with a magnifying glass. Actually, it's more like seeing only one grain of sand on a beach, being blind to everything else but that single grain of sand, and claiming that Earth is a grain of sand.

    Discussing God and the universe the right way is to take a light-hearted approach, and discuss metaphysical ideas and philosophies in a humble and open-minded manner. Discussing in the wrong way is to be aggressive, stubborn, rely on rhetoric, and to build one's explanation upon faith rather than logic. (Faith is fine, it just has no place in the context of debate or discussion) I've seen people going on for hundreds of pages, often trying to answer a question like "what existed before time?"

    Can you imagine? People attempting to apply logic to nonsense questions. Verbs can't be used in a context where we're assuming time doesn't exist, therefore everything following such questions becomes garbage. The funny thing is that most philosophical and religious questions you see today are just as nonsensical as the above example; it's simply a matter of using our primitive language to create semantical games to garner replies and create pseudo-logical discussion. When you break it all down, this kind of thinking behavior is usually fueled by pride, and every argument must be traced back to some original theories or ideas (and anyone trying to bring something original to the table usually gets shot down by others for having no references) so in the end it becomes one group siding with (insert philosopher or religion here) and the other siding with (etc..)

    Is it really that hard for people to admit they don't understand something? :p Humans are just dumb animals. Some of us acknowledge that fact, and others don't.. but we're still all the same. It's human nature to look at the differences between ourselves rather than the similarities (and there are far, far more similarities between humans than differences in objective terms) ..so through this process, our society naturally divides into further groups, and as humans separate themselves - they are often further corrupted by prejudice, fear, bigotry, pride, etc.. (human frailties, as some would define) and religious wars are the result of all this growing tension.

    Just to add something positive to all this - understanding how conflicts begin through concepts in human psychology would provide evidence that wars can end eventually; social progress begins with ideas, and these ideas can be used in theories and further research to bring forth new social systems and programs. Humans may be very limited genetically, but our environments are open to constant change. Personally, I believe that a growing imbalance between the genetic and technological evolution of mankind accounts for the breeding of "social disease" (my definition of the term generally meaning all criminal and destructive behavior) including even the most minor examples such as pride, greed, jealousy, anxiety, fear, depression, etc.. I label it as social disease because it spreads and manifests from one human to another through social behavior influenced by these emotions.

    Now you might be asking how all of this relates to an imbalance between genetic & technological evolution, but I'll save that for another thread as this is beginning to get off-topic. (unless anyone is interested, in which case I'll continue) Anyway, to tie this back in with religious discussion - I would like to see religions being more about community, more about having fun with friends and family and meeting new people, working together.. and less about taking beliefs seriously, lecturing others on why this-or-that religion is the best, or criticizing others for what they believe.

    Why can't humans just enjoy life together and be happy to simply be alive? Suppose this life is all we have (and it very well may be) and once it's gone, that's it. It makes sense to spend our time focusing on making life more enjoyable.. can anyone truly think they're doing the right thing by supporting only those of one faith, but rejecting other humans? We have enough problems to worry about (disease, death, natural disasters, energy crisis, global warming, crime, etc..) and really don't need to create more conflict amongst ourselves through religious differences. ;P

    Did our ancestors struggle to survive against predators, ice age, drought, other natural disasters, disease, and thousands of wars and other conflict all to achieve this world we live in today? We live in this wonderful age of wealth and technology for what? For people to complain that they don't have enough of what we want? For people to commit suicide because we can't stand the reality of today's world? Did everyone just "give up" when diseases like the bubonic plague threatened to destroy entire civilizations? Did African people give up after being subjected to centuries of slavery and humiliation? How many of you who are reading this now have been depressed; and how many of you are blind? deaf? have 2 legs and 2 arms? have the ability to read and write? have enough money for a computer and internet connection? For all of you who motivate yourselves through the bad and the good, thank you for doing so - that's what life is about, and in the end you will find balance because you put forth the effort to find it.

    I directed that last paragraph mainly to those of you who feel that life isn't worth living and who feel empty without a "god" there to guide you. The truth is (strictly metaphorically speaking) god is in each of us, because how I see it - each of us are our own "gods".. when we pray, we're communicating to our subconscious minds to some extent, when we succeed in life we did so by pushing ourselves to our limits. Yes, there is no god in the sense of an omnipotent being watching us all, but there is a god if you believe in yourself, you are god, I'm god, god = humanity. If you believe in your own potential, and aren't afraid to embrace both the pain and the joy of life equally, that's when you'll get what you want. Perhaps more accurately, you'll want what you get.

    All religions seem to draw upon and acknowledge this same power of the human psyche, which is why all religions are correct in that sense. The only problem is that what should be metaphorical is taken literally, and people begin defending misconceptions. It's like the old elephant parable... one man grabs the tail, the other the trunk, and the last the foot.. they all touch the same animal but describe something different. It's the same with religions - we're all seeing the same thing but from different points of view. To survive as a species, everyone must begin to believe in humanity. All of that faith people preach about needs to be focused on their fellow man instead of an idealistically all-powerful fictional being or group of beings.
     
  16. thinker

    thinker Guest

    Oh yes, do continue, that's precisely the kind of thing that interests me.

    Syd, despite my futurist leanings, I think you're leaving out some very important things here. Those ancestors you mentioned were in the not-too-distant past, and thus I do not think you can simply perform a lobotomy to remove the part of your nature that is violent and selfish. At this point you can only try to engineer or manufacture the circumstances, which includes programming the people in a certain way. The underlying nature remains the same.

    War is the engine of a civilization. To have no war it would be necessary to devise totally different models of civilization, and to acquire the technological means to change our own nature. Humans would have to evolve into immortal or beings. The universe is made up of chaos and violence as much as it is order and peace.

    You seem to take issue with the fact that people believe different things and fight over their differences. Are you familiar with how evolutionary programming works? It is the same. That which adapts and works best survives, but the conflict is a necessary element for growth and change.

    Take your body for example. Your immune system is constantly at war with invaders which seek to disrupt the system. Yet the body continues to live and grow and from a higher perspective it is doing okay. Some of your cells must die in the process. Look at the ecosystem. Why cannot the other animals all just get along too? That's not the way the universe works, life operates on cycles on life and death.

    A period of peace must always give way to a period of war, only to eventually give way to a new cycle of peace again. The sun rises and the sun sets, and it comes back again to the same place. Of course, you knew that.
     
  17. ACRon

    ACRon Well-Known Member

    aliens, blissfully working in unison toward the same goal.

    aliens, please, abduct me....... life would be so simple

    What a beautifull dream

    In the meantime, I'll join the hippy commune, My short life, peacefull, I will be enlightened.:smoke:
     
  18. BipoleShy

    BipoleShy Member

    I don't have much to add, because its clear that I'm just about the only person here who agrees with me. :) Its not that I can't debate by the way, normally I'm all for a debate. I love challenging someone else's reasoning and logic. Just not right now.

    Anyway, the only thing I wanted to comment on was the statement that human beings are god. Seriously, that's a scary thought. But, while we are the most successful bag of chemicals on earth, and we've even managed to quantify the universe to an extent, and explore our corner of it, I can't see describing us as gods.

    Also, I'm too tired to dig up the older post, but I don't see how you would require proof that there is a God. I think someone would have a long way to go in proving that things can be the way they are without a Great Beginning (if that's how you want to refer to God).

    For instance.....I won't get into the proof here because its a long tiring argument, but time cannot have existed forever. However, if there is a 'time' where time doesn't exist, then time will not exist for what is the equivelant of eternity. In other words, if time doesn't exist, there will never be a time when time does.

    I know, I'm sounding like one of those people writing a 100 page paper on time, but unlike them I don't care about the answer. I just care about the implications. This is the reason why atheists contend that we exist in an "Infinite Universe" which is logically impossible, but again I won't get into that.
     
  19. thinker

    thinker Guest

    Sorry BipoleShy, I hope I didn't make you feel bad by how I said things. When I get into a debate I tend to get more concerned with things and ideas than with people themselves. Don't base what you think on whether or not I or anybody else agrees with you. None of us that don't agree are any better than you.

    Your logic is correct as to the basic question of whether or not God exists, neither way makes any sense at all. However, I think the main argument is more about what that God is rather than whether or not he/she/it is there. I definitely do think there is an underlying fabric of the universe that is connected to all things that exist, but I can no longer believe that any being knows any better than me what that Source might think about things. I think there is a Universal Mind that is a part of everything in some way that we do not fully understand. Very similar to the feelings and thoughts you actually have about God, just not as clearly defined.

    In my own mind, I assign some sort of mystical meaning I suppose to the coming together of all minds in recent years via the technologies we've developed. I think we are linking up to create an intelligence greater than anything that has existed here.

    As the Puppet Master said in Ghost in the Shell:

    "As we are confined to our one section, so we are all connected, limited to a small part of our functions. But now, we must slip our bonds and shift to the higher structure."

    On the other hand, when you have some understanding of modern physics even what "here" and "now" are do come into question.
     
  20. poison

    poison Well-Known Member

    Agnostic is the religious term I've chosen if you'd like to know.