If I truly expressed a few things in depth...

Discussion in 'Rants, Musings and Ideas' started by meaningless-vessel, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    ... I could find myself being under moderation for posting.

    This is due to some of the attitudes that are around the forum and the chat. Whilst I know I am not perfect nor do I know everything, I find it rather remarkable that when I am questioned or disputed for my opinion, although sometimes it could be better held in, there are a few who do agree that I don't go too far. I even find that I have to get my posts checked from time to time.

    There are a few things I really am itching to say, just to get them off my chest, but is this the right place where the respective users can see it? I'm not sure.

    When people make mistakes, and as humans we all do at some point, we're encouraged to learn from them. How can we learn if those mistakes are packaged in excuses to go ahead with taking our own life? It's a cheap shot when it's something as common as a broken heart, or a car crash that could have been prevented by not driving while drunk (this is two examples).

    Is it right that the broken heart when caused by the person wanting to end it all sounds like its seeking attention? If they can't have what they want they'd take an easy route out instead of facing reality that they caused it and what they feel inside could have been prevented with honesty.

    Is it right to whinge and moan about loneliness and blaming conditions for it (which I think is a load of nonsense because for a lot of things over the years to do with lonely, not invited out by so-called friends, or not going out I understand, i have experienced, and yet I have no 'labels' of specific conditions.)

    It's ok to have a grumble and a groan. If you're prepared to put in effort and accept things aren't always going to be exactly as you want them, then you might get further forwards. If you're not prepared to change, and open your mind to different possible perspectives, that may or may not work (only trying them would answer that), then what exactly is the point of being on a site that is pro-life? Why seek medical answers from peer-to-peer non-pros?

    We are all human, we all have issues. Many fight on because they find a way to. Our worst enemy is ourselves, not anyone else.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2013
  2. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    I also find that in the chat room there is a specific group of people who I don't see eye to eye with. I've been in there with humour and jokes and fun, but there are some that want to knock that down.

    There are some that repeat the same things over and over again there too. One person had complained about not having the chat friends, but didn't stay and join in with busier rooms.

    Perhaps offloading about users past and present isn't the best of ideas. But what is likely to be beneficial? Change. Why? Nothing will happen if nothing is done. It's that simple
  3. snarrylover

    snarrylover Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure I understand all your points, but I do understand the point regarding complaining about something you're not willing to change. You're right, we are our own worst enemy. But in defence of others, I don't think it's that black and white.

    I don't think suicide is the easy way out, though I can understand why people would. Whilst some would say the brain is hard-wired to survive, I believe it's human nature to want to protect yourself. If someone is living in a place where they are miserable, where they are in emotional pain from the things in their lives, if that person can't see any good around them then I can understand wanting peace. A life isn't a life if you're not living it. Don't get me wrong, I would never encourage someone to end it, but I would understand their choice. Honesty doesn't solve as much as we'd like to believe.

    I'm guilty of blaming my situation on others and I've been full circle with that very issue. I blamed everyone else, then I blamed myself, but now I know I'm not to blame. As my therapist made me realise, I've been making the effort to better my life. I made a huge effort with my friends, I even invited some of them out knowing it was going to be awkward, knowing I would be the one making conversation. I wasn't rewarded for that effort, and that is how I know that I'm not to blame. People don't know how to treat me because of my depression. Social situations aren't excuses, they are reasons.

    I don't go in the chat rooms. This issue was actually brought up in another thread recently, and I stated the belief that the people in the chat rooms remind of the the "popular kids" in school. It's like a clique - friendships already established, no new people welcome. Sometimes I just want to chat like I would with friends - discuss things that have been in the news, talk about tv shows and films, etc. I find it hard to do that on here. So I guess I can understand someone not joining in even after expressing the wish to do so. It's incredibly hard to talk to a new set of people, especially when you face the risk of being ignored or rejected.
  4. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    You based your opinion of a chat room set up on what exactly? Someone else's knowledge? You state that you don't use them so where would your knowledge come from?

    I've had a minimum of 17 years of trying to fit in, in reality and online. With 5+ years experience in chatrooms, to nullify that clique, is easy. I was often the outcast once I got up to secondary school, and even once got booted in the shin by a peer, for trying to fit in and they didn't like it. Even 4.5 years later, or throughout college/social life, I never really fitted in. So being accepted in a chat room online was a big deal.

    It's down to how much effort people put in. I generally put a lot in so of course I may make more in the way of friends than others. Some don't bother, and just complain. One other bonus point I could also make, is that via the chat initially, I have persuaded another user not to give up on life. On and offline their life is slowly becoming better and more enjoyable, yet all the while, it's primarily their life and their choice. Not something that their ex or me have a right to control.

    As for blaming conditions, I wasn't going on about situations, I meant the kind of conditions that include ADHD, add, Aspergers, ie, things that are misinterpreted as diseases by some, yet do not directly cause deaths.

    Honesty may also not solve things, but it can go a hell of a long way to maintaining trust in a relationship. Why is it that someone who causes a problem gets support and misses the key component - their reluctance to be honest with themselves/their partner caused the problem, which was preventable. It's like starting a bonfire with a match, but forget to light the match and the bonfire may not start/ has less chance to go wrong.

    And you're quick to dispel my ranting theories - I never quoted a username although these are mainly through sf what i have seen over 14 months, and I think I also mentioned that I'm not perfect/don't know everything, so I'm sure I covered those bases that my opinions are just that.

    Some will like/agree with some points, some won't. But instead of justifying why I am wrong, perhaps look at participation, particularly in the chat, before you make a decision as to what to believe/what to assume.
  5. snarrylover

    snarrylover Well-Known Member

    I wasn't dispelling you're theories, just posting my own in response. You said yourself that expressing your opinion could put you under moderation because it's different than what we learn to believe.

    I based my opinion on the chat rooms from going in the chat rooms, and I've met a few other people with a similar opinion. I'm sure other people have a different experience. I wouldn't avoid them if I didn't feel I had reason to. Perhaps it's changed in the year I've stayed away. Obviously it works for you and I'm glad for that - going through what you did at school sounds horrible.

    I can agree to a point that it's wrong to blame those conditions, and I would never call them a disease, but it's not what you go through - it's how you handle it. Someone could have the whole world fighting against them and still they'd find the strength to go on; someone else could have one thing ruin their view on life and struggle to push through. Neither has it worse because it's what you make of it.
  6. Cariad_Bach

    Cariad_Bach Staff Alumni

    Don't jump on me, but I really really agree with this. I Hate judgements on how badly someone else feels, or the valididty of their feelings if you compare them to someone else's (generally wholly unconnected with them and their situation). And I Hate people deciding whether another is 'worthy' of compassion based upon their own perception that "you're not as bad off as I am (or as X is)". I will concede that people who complain over and again about the same thing without ever seeming to try to mitigate or change it can be frustrating. But for me, that frustration comes from running out of things to say or ways to help and not being able to offer anything other than sympathy - and NOT a passing of judgement regarding whether they deserve that sympathy.

    That said, this is Let it all out, and everyone is entitled to get on their soapbox when they need to. Just that this is a sensitive kind of subject for me at the moment.
  7. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    My frustration is more at the situations I've known 2 people at least to complain about, when they were the cause of their own problem. A drunken car crash from someone who indicated that they refused at first is a situation I wouldn't give sympathy for because it was preventable and car crashes can kill, never mind drunken ones.

    It's not judging them for it, it's taking what they've said - if they've said something like the above example, I have to ask how they would earn the right to be given sympathy? Drunk driving kills a fair few people - its illegal if discovered to be too drunk - that's why I seem to be more critical of it.

    As for the relationship issue, I've had 7 experiences of this, and they've all gone wrong so I think there's something wrong with me. But most of them I've done something wrong in, I don't expect sympathy if I make the mistakes that cost the relationship. How would I realistically get any for being the cause of my relationships going wrong? I've had one where I was told I did nothing wrong, but I'm still a little unsure that is 100% true given me going wrong before.

    Illegality of actions. Experiences. That's where I base my blunt lack of sympathy.

    Everyone's different, and handles things differently, yes. But if what they do is technically illegal, or of their own making and was preventable, I'm entitled to respond with a harsh realism at times. I'm not always nice. But mollycoddling and bubble-wrapping people who create their own problems and/or cry wolf (it does happen), isnt going to help them realistically understand they've done wrong and can't necessarily have their own way.
  8. Cariad_Bach

    Cariad_Bach Staff Alumni

    I agree that people should take responsibility for their actions even - or you may say especially - where they resulted in harm to themselves and/or others. But I do not feel that sympathy comes at the exclusion of any other response. Nor do I feel that it should be 'earned'. Much like forgiveness, I believe that acts of compassion should be made when they are needed and are never coldly 'deserved' or 'undeserving'.

    I am capable of condemning drunk driving while still feeling sympathy for the victim of a crash who came out of it hurting.

    Accidents 'happen' - they are not handed out for punishment or retribution. Taking unneccessary risks can be despicable, and where that risk is actualised can be 'punished' by law or other agencies. But that does not change the definition of accident, which is still unexpected, undesireable and unintended.

    Your other example is, I feel, really not equivalent. At first I thought you were confusing legality and morality (a common misconception), but really, here are two completely unrelated situations. One is a question of cause and effect, the other is simply the evolution of life and relationships. Of course I have no idea what 'mistakes' you are referring to from your own relationships, but I do know that relationships require more than one person to be involved and are affected by a myriad of internal and external factors. Not that there are not occasions where 'better behaviour' would be advisable and desireable. But mistakes are simply that; errors. Some more easily rectified or mitigated than others, but all, essentially, simply a choice that didn't 'work out'. If the same decision is made twice, and the first time it causes harm and the second time it doesn't, then yes the first time it was a mistake but the second time it was not: the decision itself is neutral until an outcome is observed.

    Furthermore, I've spent a lot of time trying to help myself to accept and rememember that perfection is an unhelpful ideal.

    To touch briefly upon your second example more specifically, every break up contains at least one 'injured party', but that does not equate to moral superiority either. Lets take adultery. The concept is, unappealing and criticisable. I would hate to be cheated on and would feel very wronged. But, at the centre of that situation are people, and realistically, I would suggest that each party consider what was wrong or missing from the original relationship that caused one partner to stray?

    For the record, I am sorry that you blame yourself so whole-heartedly as the perpetrator of some ignominious wrong(s) that led to the breakdown of your 7 relationships. I sympathise. It is just as important in my opinion to take responsibility as it is to be able to accept what we are not responsible for. And also to know when we have searched our souls enough to be able to let go of such self-destructive punition.

    Finally, I want to reiterate that illegality is Not equivalent to immorality... Realism is not equivalent to apportioning blame... and personal experiences can lead to misperception.

    And crying wolf is (again imo) entirely different - because there there IS not mistake or accident at all, just a person who is crying out for attention. And yes, I still sympathise with them. Because they must be quite desperate to be heard to resort to dramatics and untruths.
  9. 1112222

    1112222 Well-Known Member

    I agree with you 100% on this.

    Its getting rather tiresome hearing the same old people on this forum moan endlessly about being lonely yet at the same time will refuse to anything about it.
    But really I think large part of the problem is that some users here think that being honest with each other is being unsupportive.
  10. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Different individuals cope with similar situations in different ways.

    It's not helpful to just marginalize people's feelings about their current state simply because they're a criminal, or were to blame for their own downfall, or any negativity they may be involved in or caused themselves whether immoral or illegal - that very circumstance and background could be the very reason why they're here; certainly not due to life being good. Not everyone is merely seeking your sympathy, they are seeking empathy. Someone else who can hear them, listen to them, and not necessarily agree with them or pat them on the head and say "poor baby," but just be available to hear and understand their pains that are causing them to see themselves as worthless enough to not even live anymore, driven to the point of taking their own life. It's about understanding, not pity.

    The thing about a site like this that you have to come to expect, is that people come here from all walks of life in every corner of the world if they are dealing with depression and other major, or even relatively minor, stresses in their lives that have made them think about themselves in the most pitiful way. What they seek most is understanding and to know that there is someone that they can talk to who won't judge them for their past transgressions or the legality of their source of tension. Sure, if you come across a rapist here, as I have before, it's easy to judge them instantly for their crime and dismiss them completely based on a superficial standard of being "deserving" or "worthy"; them feeling unworthy is why they're here. They don't need you to remind them that they're worthless, I'm pretty sure they know hence why they would be on a site such as this. Although one may not see them as "deserving" of sympathy, everyone here deserves at least some empathy for their situation and not necessarily agreement. A drunk driver isn't here to get a bunch of people to justify what he did and say "I'm sure you didn't mean it" or "you did the right thing." I'm taking a wild guess that they already know that and maybe feel a great sadness or remorse, regret even, over it and just want someone who can understand where they're coming from.

    Sometimes people just want to rant and let someone in the world - anyone - know that they were here, that they went through something that got them to where they are, and that's it. Leave the judgments to the lawyers, judge, and jury. That's not what this suicide forum is. And that's not to say for you to avoid being honest; it means be aware of your audience, have some wider perspective, and that not everyone is here for a pity party.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2013
  11. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    As for your opinion on members who are feeling depressed over losing or suffering in some way in a relationship, I completely disagree with that. Again, each person copes differently. Some are weaker than others and are more vulnerable to losing themselves for feeling unwanted or neglected by another, regardless whose fault it was. Social affairs are an important part of our lives and we - even you - spend our time trying to be accepted by others or getting a sense of belonging because it's our natural state to seek someone else and this even counts for friendship and family as well, not just romantic affairs.

    When relationships with those we care about, were dedicated to, or spent energy on in some way are ripped away from us whether willingly or not, it hurts; and for some people who are very vulnerable or already have a history of being distraught and unstable (such as people on a suicide forum), then it's not unreasonable or irrational for them to believe that their life has lost meaning and worth. Whether we think it's "right" for them to feel that way, and then to go as far as to dispute the validity of their feelings, is irrelevant. As if you aren't seeking some kind of attention, someone to hear your voice and hear what you have to say about something you feel strongly about by making this thread. Nobody's dismissing your feelings about something you want to bring attention to, correct?

    So what if someone is just posting for attention? So are you. So is everyone who is sad enough, lonely enough, and emotionally destitute and hurting enough to have to seek interaction on a suicide forum. If it gives them hope or some feeling that they are understood by someone, and it makes them feel a little bit relieved, a little less lonely, then 1) let them have it; 2) give them the benefit of the doubt or 3) ignore it. Simple as that.

    An insignificant issue to one is hurtful enough to another to make them kill themselves. That automatically makes it significant. What should someone kill themselves over? Is there a list? What's the list for "top reasons to commit suicide"? Is there a universal threshold of breaking for every single person... or does each individual have their own threshold and for some it's easier to reach than others?
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2013
  12. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    The majority of replies here basically say to me that I'm actually wrong for voicing my opinion. Yet the replies are just opinions of others. Just suggests that I know nothing - and that what I read on site/in chat i should say nothing about.

    Makes me feel more like I want to talk... Ok, that last bit was sarcastic.
  13. Cariad_Bach

    Cariad_Bach Staff Alumni

    Not at all. You voiced an opinion and it opened a dialogue - people paid attention and decided to respond and converse. Isn't that what you wanted? Is that not acceptable purely because my opinion differs to yours? Its no more or less valid. If you want to post in a way that doesn't allow others to answer you then I suggest you utilise the diary section, where others may not respond.
  14. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    It's certainly opened a can of worms.

    As for the diary idea, I already have one.

    I'm just not likely to show empathy or sympathy towards those who moan about a situation that they've made for themselves through their own choices. To me that makes sense anyway.
  15. Cariad_Bach

    Cariad_Bach Staff Alumni

    Sorry unimportant, I was a little terse. Feel bad about it now. :eek:hwell:
  16. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    And no one obliges you to. But when you actively complain about and dismiss people who come here for support, and you judge them and make them feel as if their issue is insignificant and not worth hearing, you should expect someone to put you back in your place and say that maybe you need to see things from a different perspective. It does no good to tell someone "shut up, no one cares" in so many words. How would you feel if we responded to your threads with "shut up, your problems don't count"?
  17. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    I cannot believe the audacity that you have to sit there and tell me I should expect to be put back in my place for voicing an opinion. So it's highly harsh. Does it make it wrong? No. Does it have a valid point in it? To some, maybe, to others, maybe not. It is just an opinion based on things I've seen on site. It doesn't match yours, but am I really forcing you to accept it? No. Don't try to force feed me your opinion. It's like someone trying to ram religion down my throat although I'm an atheist.

    You won't like it. The fact is, I'm venting frustration, not saying that anyone's problems are insignificant.
  18. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Followed by examples of how people "complain" about issues you think are unimportant for you to show sympathy or empathy toward. Your entire original post is about people "whining" and "moaning" about things you think are trivial because of their supposed ability or refusal to be in control of their problems. And you're entitled to that opinion. But so am I about yours.

    You made a thread in a forum, open for discussion with people of varying perspectives, seeking attention regarding your frustrations on an issue. You got it. Sorry it isn't bubble-wrapped and mollycoddling enough... I'm just being honest and giving a different point-of-view. I respect your venting, and I understand it, but don't be upset when you get an equally honest opinion about your opinion complaining about not being able to be honest.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2013
  19. Rachael1

    Rachael1 Account Closed

    I think youve made a lot of good points unimportant and you are definitely entitled to your own opinions but some people can take it the wrong way. As you said, you are quite harsh but honest in what you say and I think for some more sensitive people, it could be the wrong thing to hear.. I agree that we are our worst enemy at times but a lot of people on this site are very fragile and such blunt advice might just push them over the edge. I do agree with most of your points, its just i think you need to soften your approach at times :)
  20. katrina77

    katrina77 Guest

    I agree with a lot of what you said Unimportant.

    Everyone has a need to vent a bit at times. But ultimately, it is our own responsibility to try and change the things in our life that aren't working. And I think that part of being supportive is to hold people accountable for attempting to do what they can to make things better for themselves.

    There are times for warm fuzzies and hugs. And then there are times when a good push and some honesty is far more helpful. JMO