Im kind of sick of baseless optimism

[LukaRedgrave]

I realized i needed to talk about this after the topic came out on a recent thread i saw.

I usually watch some youtube videos on the suicide topic, you know, the usual PG stuff: suicide attempt survivors, people who lost a loved one to suicide, how to spot a suicidal person, etc. In the comment section you're most likely to read comments of people saying they feel suicidal, depressed, not wanting to live anymore, which obviously i can relate to, and 99.9% of the time, there's some random people saying the same, old, rutinary phrases:

"i dont know you, but trust me: it gets better" "whatever you're going through, it will pass soon" "everything is gonna be alright before you even notice"

I mean, i understand what you're trying to do, but those overused, stereotypical, lifeless, illogical and, honestly, patronizing phrases really dont help. It kind of feels you're minimizing someone else's suffering and pain by giving them a pat on the back. Baseless optimism really makes me angry and usually makes things worse, cause it feels like a barrier people build up between you and them so they dont have to actually listen to what you have to say...you know, that one thing that might actually help a little.

Obviously it doesnt happen only on Youtube, but you get the general picture, sorry if i come off as rude or "ungrateful", i actually get the point they're trying to reach, but, at least for me, it's not helping, it has never helped me, and i guess that's one of the reason many suicidal people dont talk about it openly...we want to be heard/read, we want some advice if necessary, but please, dont come up with stuff that you cant guarantee.

 

[Velveteen Bunny]

I completely agree. It even annoys me when I see those kind of comments on videos not related to suicide or mental health in general. I like to watch the videos with scenes of nature and music, and there's a whole collection of platitude comments on those, and I just roll my eyes.

I know there's even a phrase that they now use to identify it, something like toxic optimism... I can't remember. People need to mull through their feelings and emotions in order to get unstuck from the mental/emotional/spiritual rut that they are in. If you always run away, you will never work it through. I finally understood that when I read the introduction to Dr. Peter Breggin's book, and I was grateful to him for being honest. I feel like so many psych doctors are dishonest because they have the attitude that it's a sin to be depressed or sad and must be avoided at all costs.

 

[Angie]

I am a bit torn on that topic.

I went through literally decades of wanting to and attempting to die. It was hell.

But at some point in the last 5 years or so things started getting better a little at a time.

Now I can say overall that my life has significantly improved, i.e. it did get better.

So I think maybe it depends on "who" that statement is coming from and in regards to what.

 

[KindaOtiose]

Yeah, I can 100% understand that perspective. Sometimes people just say these messages because they care and just want to try and offer some solace to the people suffering, but as @Angie says, there are some truth to them - I'm pretty sure you could demonstrate statistically that the vast majority of people's lives improve from the point at which they were at there lowest. Of course there are no guarantees in life, and it can be easy to think things will never get better when you're suffering intensely or dismiss these phrases when the people saying them don't know you, but just try and remember people have the best of intentions and those slogans do contains truth.

Everything has different things that help them, and if these little slogans don't help you, that is absolutely fine. I'll try and keep that in mind if I can. Look after yourself.

 

[JMG]

Hey @LukaRedgrave I just wanted to say I read what you said and I agree in a way but I can also see that what Angie & KindaOtiose said is true as well. I think most of the time when people say things that are generic "nice" things to say that they generally aren't meaning to be insincere. I personally appreciate it when someone takes the time to give any words of encouragement period, even if they are ones I heard lots of times before. I try to be grateful for any good actions that are taken period, whether it's to me or someone else. It's definitely better than a person going on there and saying "you don't want to live anymore? Good, then don't" or something like that. Don't worry you don't come off as rude or ungrateful. I've sometimes felt like how you described about that kind of stuff as well but usually I've realized that it's just me being negative, ungrateful or sometimes even a bit untrusting that they have good intentions. Once I realize that then I usually try to just give the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere in what they say.

I think it is usually better to leave encouraging/supportive comments for people that say "I hope things will get better for you soon". The only time I've said that I think they WILL get better soon is if they have explicitly said that they are feeling like they never will get better or something like that. It's meant to inject more positive energy into the situation and when I say it, it's absolutely meant very sincerely & from my heart. I am trying to send positive, hopeful energy to them. I believe that kind of thing is a lot more effective than many people realize. I think it's why so many people say things about praying for them when they are going through tough times. I know sometimes it is cos of being religious but anyway I think it can be a very powerful thing that people can do to try to send good energy to other people. I try to do more than just that though, letting them know they can message me if they want to talk more and things like that.

 

[Moriens Gigas]

What you are seeing are typical human platitudes. They are bandied about by people who have no understanding of depression and suicidality.

Our society (most cultures) are biased in favor of life and living, irrespective of the fact that life is different for each person; for some it is tenable, for others it is an acid bath. Many simply don't know what to say to someone so mired in despair. In a shallow culture such as this, this is the closest they can come to being profound.

I wouldn't worry about the opinions of Youtubers; they are lowest common denominator attention-whores who need clicks and views for money.

 

[LOSTINSIGHT]

This saying really triggers me "if I can get through this anyone can " ,,I understand the person is only being nice,,the fact it gets to me says more about me. Not everyone with mental health problems are non functional like me .
Cheers.

 

[A_J_R]

I use the "it will pass" thing a lot. But maybe that's more of a reminder for myself because when I'm so down I sometimes don't realize things may ease up.

That said, I'd say it's mostly well-intentioned but yes, coming from someone who probably has little understanding of your situation or emotional state. I actually prefer when people just say, "I'm so sorry you are feeling so sad," or "I don't have words," because it just shows they are listening and not trying to "fix" you. Just letting you feel what you need to. It seems more accepting and honest to me.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

I completely agree. It even annoys me when I see those kind of comments on videos not related to suicide or mental health in general. I like to watch the videos with scenes of nature and music, and there's a whole collection of platitude comments on those, and I just roll my eyes.

I know there's even a phrase that they now use to identify it, something like toxic optimism... I can't remember. People need to mull through their feelings and emotions in order to get unstuck from the mental/emotional/spiritual rut that they are in. If you always run away, you will never work it through. I finally understood that when I read the introduction to Dr. Peter Breggin's book, and I was grateful to him for being honest. I feel like so many psych doctors are dishonest because they have the attitude that it's a sin to be depressed or sad and must be avoided at all costs.

"Toxic optimism" - I love that.

I've noticed many people exhibit Toxic Positivity about the world - like they focus on a positive ideology while ignoring suffering in the world, saying "you can do anything you set your mind to!" without regard for the fact that others may have real disadvantages in life like trauma, physical or mental health barriers, socio-economic barriers, or issues of race, gender, age, weight, appearance etc. I mean, it's maybe meant as encouragement - it's when you start measuring and judging others and blaming them for not achieving whatever career or financial or personal goals you think they should have, that it becomes a problem. "You could do anything you set your mind to... so if you don't, it's your fault. You're depressed because you're too negative." that kind of thing.

 

[Velveteen Bunny]

It also depends on a person's mood, and even if you are depressed 99% of the time, there are periods when you just feel apathetic, not in extreme angst or suicidal level pain. At those times, I can read the better worded messages and view them in a non-cynical, jaded way (as opposed to when I am hopeless, which is most of the time) and I can think, "maybe".

And also, I'm not talking about a sincere, from the heart message from a person who really *does* care. But those seem to be the most painful for me, because my dark ego (or whatever you want to call it) kicks in and the voice in my head tells me that if that person really knew me, they wouldn't bother. Results of CEN, which I haven't overcome I suppose. I just smile and pretend everything is okay or if it's a random person I don't know in real life, I don't respond, because like some of you all rightly say, it can bring happiness to other people, just not me.

 

[Nick]

I'm a strong believer that things always get different. Life is always changing, and it's not the same today as it was yesterday, a week ago or a year ago. That said, the different isn't always better. My crystal ball reading skills are shit, so I will never tell someone things are going to get better. I can't promise anybody what's going to happen in the future. I will tell people things will get different, and sometimes that different is better. That probably isn't all that encouraging for some people, but it really is the truth.

I know for myself that my low low's will pass. I go through cycles. That's me though. I can't make that call for anyone else. I also know the low low's will come again. I know the suicidal thoughts will always be there for me. Accepting that was actually one of the best things I did for my mental health. I could stop trying to get rid of the suicidal thoughts and instead focus on how to learn to live with them.

 

[Inanimate]

It kind of feels you're minimizing someone else's suffering and pain by giving them a pat on the back.

They’re giving themselves a pat on the back if anyone. They’re not so much inquiring about our experience as they are just gracing us with their correct way of experiencing the world. It’s about meeting a quota. “How many people can I dignify with the same contrived set of platitudes before inevitably being challenged to actually care?”

 

[Moriens Gigas]

They’re giving themselves a pat on the back if anyone. They’re not so much inquiring about our experience as they are just gracing us with their correct way of experiencing the world. It’s about meeting a quota. “How many people can I dignify with the same contrived set of platitudes before inevitably being challenged to actually care?”

Acta non verba. Deeds, not words.

That is why I do not take any words I hear or read seriously. At all. It is all just so much noise.

People can spill forth words until the cows come home because they come cheaply. If they really care, they should show it with actions.

 

[The Unknown Philosopher]

When you're in the state we're all in, it does ring rather hollow.

It's hard to 'keep your chin up' when you're down in the dumps.

It's almost like the people that say that are doing it for themselves.

 

[Catch_22]

I realized i needed to talk about this after the topic came out on a recent thread i saw.

I usually watch some youtube videos on the suicide topic, you know, the usual PG stuff: suicide attempt survivors, people who lost a loved one to suicide, how to spot a suicidal person, etc. In the comment section you're most likely to read comments of people saying they feel suicidal, depressed, not wanting to live anymore, which obviously i can relate to, and 99.9% of the time, there's some random people saying the same, old, rutinary phrases:

"i dont know you, but trust me: it gets better" "whatever you're going through, it will pass soon" "everything is gonna be alright before you even notice"

I mean, i understand what you're trying to do, but those overused, stereotypical, lifeless, illogical and, honestly, patronizing phrases really dont help. It kind of feels you're minimizing someone else's suffering and pain by giving them a pat on the back. Baseless optimism really makes me angry and usually makes things worse, cause it feels like a barrier people build up between you and them so they dont have to actually listen to what you have to say...you know, that one thing that might actually help a little.

Obviously it doesnt happen only on Youtube, but you get the general picture, sorry if i come off as rude or "ungrateful", i actually get the point they're trying to reach, but, at least for me, it's not helping, it has never helped me, and i guess that's one of the reason many suicidal people dont talk about it openly...we want to be heard/read, we want some advice if necessary, but please, dont come up with stuff that you cant guarantee.

I feel exactly the same way. Exactly.

 

[Jezah81]

I also can relate somewhat, the cause of my depression is a physical illness ie degenerative joint condition which effects my entire body. So when I see my psychologist every month she keeps telling me not to be depressed because who knows if in the future there may be a cure for my condition. I'm not sure what to make of this comment . I'm not a medical practitioner however I don't see how there will be a cure to tendonsis and arthritis any Time soon . Depression in people with clinical depression may get better with time and with the right medication, however for people with situational depression, unless their situation actually changes, I can't see how the depression will go. Some people's can change , others can't. It's a mixed bucket of scenarios for someone to just assert everything will get better and it will pass. And I can see how this would lead to further frustration and feel patronised.

 

[Catch_22]

I also can relate somewhat, the cause of my depression is a physical illness ie degenerative joint condition which effects my entire body. So when I see my psychologist every month she keeps telling me not to be depressed because who knows if in the future there may be a cure for my condition. I'm not sure what to make of this comment . I'm not a medical practitioner however I don't see how there will be a cure to tendonsis and arthritis any Time soon . Depression in people with clinical depression may get better with time and with the right medication, however for people with situational depression, unless their situation actually changes, I can't see how the depression will go. Some people's can change , others can't. It's a mixed bucket of scenarios for someone to just assert everything will get better and it will pass. And I can see how this would lead to further frustration and feel patronised.

Absolutely. I also don't fathom how your doctor could tell you this. I know there are ways to ease arthritis, but that's a pretty ridiculous statement and comes off pretty fake. My doctor's talk like that to me too. What is up w that. Anyway, yes, it's incredibly patronizing and worse, you KNOW the person isn't even fucking thinking. I was once with a person who had a stage four brain tumour and ( he survived but ininitially was told three to four months) and when he got put in the psych ward one time they said basically the same kind of crap. Drugged him w useless psych drugs that only made his condition and ability to deal or heal, WORSE. Now, he did survive, it's been a lot of years and I know he's still out there, but that's like a freak situation. I recall now talking to the cancer doc. She didn't have hope. So I know it's possible, and that's fair in some situations, but to minimize the reality or refuse to think about it does nothing. Having no hope didn't help him or me, it made him spiral and look for ways to cope. So some hope from people and docs based in possible reality would have been the right prescription. But also the doc we saw was fair and blunt and didn't sugarcoat. And that was respectful and made it easier to plan for the worst.
I'm glad I learned the phrase baseless optimism because now I'm going to use the hell out of that to call people out, since it's everywhere.
I hope you do find ways to feel better, if no cure does come that you can find ways to be comfortable or balance the pain somehow so it's not causing so deep of depression. But I also understand if it doesn't happen.

 

[Nick]

So when I see my psychologist every month she keeps telling me not to be depressed because who knows if in the future there may be a cure for my condition.

I have various medical conditions in addition to my mental health problems. It actually infuriates me when people say "well future medical advances might have a cure". There is no cure and it's highly unlikely there will be in my lifetime. Why do I say that? Because it's rare, and there isn't funding for the research. If nobody is looking for the cure they sure as hell aren't going to find it. I'm really put off by that response to my medical crap.

As for the idea that you should just not be depressed, well if it were that easy I would think you would have managed it by now. Another thing that infuriates me. People who think that someone should just stop being depressed. Sometimes you can do all the right things, take all the right steps and still struggle with depression.

I'm truly not set off by much, but those two things both get me.

 

[Przym]

Some people get better.

Others lie to themselves and convince themselves they are better, but see the shadows just beyond the surface creeping in every once in a while.

Many never progress past their own stagnant horror, either out of an inability to do so, or an unwillingness.

 

[Dante]

I realized i needed to talk about this after the topic came out on a recent thread i saw.

I usually watch some youtube videos on the suicide topic, you know, the usual PG stuff: suicide attempt survivors, people who lost a loved one to suicide, how to spot a suicidal person, etc. In the comment section you're most likely to read comments of people saying they feel suicidal, depressed, not wanting to live anymore, which obviously i can relate to, and 99.9% of the time, there's some random people saying the same, old, rutinary phrases:

"i dont know you, but trust me: it gets better" "whatever you're going through, it will pass soon" "everything is gonna be alright before you even notice"

I mean, i understand what you're trying to do, but those overused, stereotypical, lifeless, illogical and, honestly, patronizing phrases really dont help. It kind of feels you're minimizing someone else's suffering and pain by giving them a pat on the back. Baseless optimism really makes me angry and usually makes things worse, cause it feels like a barrier people build up between you and them so they dont have to actually listen to what you have to say...you know, that one thing that might actually help a little.

Obviously it doesnt happen only on Youtube, but you get the general picture, sorry if i come off as rude or "ungrateful", i actually get the point they're trying to reach, but, at least for me, it's not helping, it has never helped me, and i guess that's one of the reason many suicidal people dont talk about it openly...we want to be heard/read, we want some advice if necessary, but please, dont come up with stuff that you cant guarantee.

Yea, I know exactly where youre coming from, it just sounds half-assed when you read it, like they couldnt think of anything better to say, and often thats EXACTLY what it is, they wanted to say SOMETHING encouraging, wanted to help, but just had nothing new to say.

In all honesty it might NOT get better, but it CAN. It isnt certain, but it is possible. I have battled depression my entire adult life, but a couple months ago, an answer just fell into my lap and I have made great strides... I had a hiccup yesterday... but otherwise, I am doing much better (its a process), problem is there was no guarantee that I would get that answer, I simply lucked out. The only hope is to keep looking for a solution until you find it, but until then, the most that most people can do to "help" is give the platitudes.

Dont see the platitudes as insulting or patronising, most of the time they arent (though I will admit that some of the time they are coming from idiots who have no idea what they are talking about) most of the time its just people who have no idea how to help, but still want to, so ignore the words and take it for what it is: an attempt to show support.