Discussion in 'Rants, Musings and Ideas' started by LordIceman, Jun 8, 2011.
Is it right to have children, to risk that our progeny are as ill fated as ourselves?
Do you mean personally? Idk.. I wouldnt think it'd be a problem to be honest, your child isn't going to be you, it'll be him/herself How you bring them up and look at them and be with them will help them grow and become themselves. They might attribute parts of who you are to them, which is good as long as you are being a positive part of your childs life.
Depends on the circumstances and people really in my opinon.
Even if you are fucked up and have a kid, it's not the end of the world for you and your child
I wouldn't call it bullshit. Yet perhaps I should elaborate. I think it is always immoral for any person, depressed or not, to have children. How would you define the self? It is complex but quantifiable. To spare myself the tedious task of quoting a multitude of psycological theories I will some up the self as a person's innate temperament acted upon by their environment. I am depressed. I did not choose it but my parents chose to bring me into this world with the knowledge that I could become depressed . If you or anyone else wants to know more about this matter or hear more about the world according to Iceman contact me at RobertDrake-Iceman@hotmail.com
Ohh.. Well I dont know if im getting you, but are you're worried about the limitations and subjections of the environemt that a child is brought up in and into which can lead to depressive thoughts?
I don't know, to be honest, if that's what you mean. The possibility that a child can fall down into a depressive state by awareness of who they are and what they are (limited to whatever knowledge and experience they have encountered to date in their life)/ by the abuse and ignorance of those around them is always going to be there.
Donno if I get you. Do you mean that the self to you is a self created aspect, whose core aspects are drawn upon by the environment we are in? And limited to the envionments own possibilities?
Eh? The self is a persons self created/born "feelings/thoughts" -- temperment. .. which is what we act upon in the environment around us? Or the environment around us stimulates and fuels those aspects? Or the environment feeds on those innate feelings/thoughts which causes us to respond and react accordingly forcing us to be drawn into a tennis match with our enviornments inorder to keep our own selfs above water?
I really dont know how you perceive "self". Just throwing shit out there.
In anycase... I still think there's more to life than the limitations of our own thoughts and desires. Sometimes it just needs someone elses perception of life to show and create a new more producitve environment to open doorways to better possibilities in life that we can't percieve on our own.
Again I probably am far off beat from what you are trying to say, but .. I don't think it's immoral, if you can give your child the opportunities and nurturing to allow them to see past their own environment(s), by giving them access to all different aspects of life, and teaching them respcet and openness.. aswell as a trillion other things too.
Ermmmmmm, well i am a father of two beautiful children.
I am also adopted, so unlike most children...........i WAS actually chosen.........now................. lets just say it wasn't good...........however, we are all animals, we all reproduce, we always will.If we don't, we will cease to exist.
Your parents did not " choose to bring you into the world in the knowledge that you could become depressed" that is not a thought, it is blame on your part.
And its not fair.
How do you think they feel that you are not happy in life?
To point the finger at your mum and dad for bringing you into this world shows anger, blame and selfishness.
Damn, i love my children with ALL my heart, i hope they never think as you do.
And i will tell you something, i have more right than most to question parentage, be it bio or non bio.
Gonna shut up here, i could vent big time.
I dont think conception is immoral. it can depend on the would-be parents.
personally, i'll probly adopt. because IVF/surrogacy costs way to fucking much and is plain rediculous. plus i dont see the point in bringing another kid into the world when theres others that are waiting to get adopted etc.
unless you are bipolar or schizophrenic then you are not likely to pass on anything to your kids. most people here have depression, and depression is a very treatable mental illness. might not seem that way today, but it's true.
Lets look at it this way. I am weird looking. When humans see someone different from them they treat them like dirt. What defines beauty? Desirable reproductive characteristics. Humans pair off and mate with other humans of a similar level of attractiveness. Who I can fall in love with is defined by my genetics and environment. The only point in love anyway is so that couples will stay together after they conceive to share the burden of child raising. All emotion is an attempt at increasing the chances of survival or specie. Let me ask you this question. What makes it right to have children?
Beauty is defined by the beholder, simple really.
Shallowness and lust may define outer beauty.
Depth and true love may define inner beauty.
Right to have children? Not sure what you mean, am guessing you are not a parent though.
Without meaning to be condescending, it is impossible to describe the love you have for a child, it is like no other.
Perhaps being able to provide a loving home for a child, perhaps a child is the ultimate gift from parents to each other, for me, there can be no greater gift or sacrifice than that of bringing new life into this world.
How is emotion a justifiable foundation for argument? You think that it is ok to have children because that is how you feel. Is it right to drink drive? Is it right to have children when the sheer magnitude of the universe dwarfs our ability to protect our loved ones as if we are intoxicated. I understand that having children must be the most rewarding experience one can be lucky to have, but with all the suffering in the world is it not selfish to have children knowing that they will suffer throughout their lives ? Can the good ever outweigh the bad. It is like neglecting a child and then giving him an xbox. (to use an anology). One may have everything taken from them and then at some point within their lives that on off switch might be flicked from sad to happy. Maybe they met someone, got a degree, a promotion. Would this make all that bullshit, that conflict within your head when you had nothing justifiable. Why should people have to suffer before happiness or be happy and then suffer. To have children is to condone suffering.
To have children is to condone suffering?
I shall treat that comment with the contempt it deserves.
How are emotions justifiable in an arguement?
Because thats how it is, we humans have many complex emotions, perhaps thats what seperates us to a certain extent from other species.
I take it you have no emotions, regardless of the state of your mind?
You also said earlier, the only point of love, is so couples stay together after conception to "share the burden of child raising"
And there lies a fundamental flaw in your arguement.
Having children isn't a burden, its an act of love, both given and recieved.
I ask how emotion is justifiable as a foundation for an argument and your response was ''because.'' Wow! To have us share the burden of child raising is an ethological explanation of why we feel love. Human young have a disproportionately large head relative to the head/body ratio of other species. Babies need constant care until they are two, (give or take). Foals however can walk within minutes of birth however clumsily. '.
Keeping in mind, horses don't generally go on to invent things that make them fly, or travel to the moon, or see things that are already dead(light from distant stars).
I don't get you humans. First you use emotion as a point of argument and then consciousness. If you are to use emotion as your standing point then if a horse wants to live then is its desire to live without the same right of fulfilment of the desire to live present in humans? Of course that would depend on the potency of the desire but my point is clear. Yet if you are to use your consciousness as your point of argument then is it not hipocrasy to bring children into an imperfect world? It is an argument of pragmatism versus Ideology. You are acceptant of this reality because it is the one you are presented with. I say God screwed us.
Well you are human too, and as far as god screwing us goes ( if he exists)............least he gave you food, warmth and a computer, unlike millions starving and dying in this world.
Hyprocisy has a Y by the way, i would have thought you would have known that.
I was unsure on the spelling of hypocrisy but couldn't find it in the dictionary, (probably because I cant fuckin' spell ) . Nevertheless I think nit picking on spelling errors in a subject concerning the ethics of conception is so embarrasingly petty that you should be ashamed of yourself . Anyway. I am human but I have lived the life of a dog. I starved. I froze. I burned. (Poetic, an exaggeration if taken literally). I sleep on a floor . I have little money . I have no job. No friends. God, (real or not, I personally am an atheist and use god stricly analogical purposes), has scewed us all over. I think that everyone deserves children but I say that children deserve more if suffering is an inevitability . Is that not fair?
Please read above, then digest another quote of yours "To have children is to condone suffering" or am i incorrect that when you mean "everyone" you refer to yourself also?
I think i better remove myself from this thread, i am unsure of your point anymore.
It is wrong to have children, (in theory), yet it is also wrong for god to have created life with unethical desires . Basically what I am saying is if I was God I'd have thought that paedophiles, murderers and rapists would be a definite mistake. Also there are other issues I am opposed to and I say that a deity should not create the universe imperfect and leave it up to humans to make the best out of his spasticated innovations. I see the universe as imperfect and I ask is it right to bring children into this abomonation of a reality knowing that they can never have everything they have ever wanted. 0
Earlier in the thread you state you are "Atheist" so how can you use the term "if i was God" or even use the word "deity"
As far as having everything they ever wanted..................how on earth can you define this?
For some it is material, for others it is wisdom, perhaps it is also emotional well-being, perhaps even love.
I believe in evolution, i believe that sooner or later mankind will get it right,i believe we are many many years still away from this.
I believe that there is one thing that can never be taken from us..........no matter how we see ourselves as having nothing.........................HOPE :stars: