is euthanasia suicide?

[soliloquise]

no stupid or biblical crap please...

i have been thinking of this a lot over the last few days having spoken to another person in similar situation and looking at links

if you have a chronic illness which causes you to live in pain 24/7 and the prognosis is not good or unknown, and you have had the condition for years would euthanasia be considered suicide?

i have been thinking about this, adopting my kid out when born to someone who would be a far better parent than me, and going down the euthanasia route. ultimately yes it would involve killing myself but i would be doing it in a legal context i guess... possibly with a helper who assists in such things.

i am pro life but i am also pro choice which is an difficult paradox. i believe suicide and euthanasia should be a last straw really, and i am currently awaiting a social services assessment for a carer. plus my midwife has pulled her finger out and got me an urgent physio referal and a pain clinic referal soon. BUT if these things go nowhere would it be wrong to off myself?

my quality of life is zero. my house is a shit hole. i cant walk my dogs. i cant move half the time and morphine does not really help with the pain even tho i am on loads. i also worry about the baby with me being on opiates.

would it be so bad if after trying to get services to help me i said fuck it all?

 

[andyc68]

yes it is suicide although controlled and by medical means, there has been alot in the papers over the last few months on this subject and the company in switzerland that does it.
any death that a person chooses by there own choice rather than living is considered suicide, even if they are suffering mentally or physically thru illness.

 

[pensive1981]

You'll get varying replies here, but the thing to remember is that you are in a pro-life / suicide prevention environment. So you have come to the right place if you're looking for support for a decision to stay alive.

I'm the last person you'll get stupid or biblical crap from. Well, some people may find what I have to say stupid, but nobody will find it biblical.

My personal stance is that I am very pro-choice and not at all against euthanasia if it is what somebody wants, especially in cases where someone's quality of life and mobility is such that they actually need assistance to carry that act out.

That said, there is a big difference between a "not good or unknown" prognosis and one of imminent, unavoidable, painful and certain death. I am not so sure that you would want to put yourself and your possibilities in the same boat as some of the cases where the death would certainly have to be considered euthanasia.

There's euthanasia... And then there's suicide because life hurts. I am thinking that you're on this forum for a reason. And I don't think it's impossible to bring your quality of life up from zero.

 

[soliloquise]

yes it is suicide although controlled and by medical means, there has been alot in the papers over the last few months on this subject and the company in switzerland that does it.
any death that a person chooses by there own choice rather than living is considered suicide, even if they are suffering mentally or physically thru illness.

yes i have read some stuff on the switzerland thing but there are also sites in the usa and uk for those who have a provable terminal illness.
i am not asking because of any suicide stigma, just wondering if it is considered wrong to do what i was thinking about in the views of others. i guess it is a kind of " legal " suicide.. but i personally belive that one of the reasons it is still a dodgy area is cos of bloody religion, tho not all religions are that narrow minded.
i am torn.. between what is the right thing to do. life can change fast when you least expect it but with a chronic illness often it won't or will only get worse

 

[andyc68]

its called Assisted suicide and as such its against the law for anyone no matter what reasons to help another take there own life, friends, family or the medical profession.
thats why people go to switzerland to do this and still face legal action on there return.

 

[soliloquise]

its called Assisted suicide and as such its against the law for anyone no matter what reasons to help another take there own life, friends, family or the medical profession.
thats why people go to switzerland to do this and still face legal action on there return.

i wouldnt be looking for a cohort as such. the meds i am prescribed are enough
is it wrong tho? in your opinion? in my situation?

 

[andyc68]

now your asking for an in depth debate worthy of parliment lol.

in my own opinion which is neither right or wrong i believe that someone who is in amazing pain due to medical reasons and have a very short time to live because of this then just maybe it would be ok, but it will still need to be the very last option.
for any other reason then no, it is still the wrong thing as i believe with time and patiance anything can be overcome.

only an opinion

 

[Hazel]

In relation to this did anyone in the UK see the television programme
'A Weekend in Switzerland' on Sunday night.
It was a very moving description of this very subject.
Personally I believe it is suicide, tbh we treat our animals better than we do our fellow human beings, a dog who is suffering and has no quality of life or hope of improvement is 'put down'. We do not give our fellow human beings suffering from terminal physical illness that right.
The important point you make is

if you have a chronic illness which causes you to live in pain 24/7 and the prognosis is not good or unknown

Your prognosis is Unknown, you may get better, you don't know that you won't, therefore I believe you should keep fighting this illness.

Sf is obviously not the place for me to argue the rights and wrongs of this and can I also say that although when we are in the grip of depression and suicidal feelings we feel that our live is not worth living and that there is no hope of improvement, I am actual proof that things can and do improve.

 

[soliloquise]

You'll get varying replies here, but the thing to remember is that you are in a pro-life / suicide prevention environment. So you have come to the right place if you're looking for support for a decision to stay alive.

yes i know

I'm the last person you'll get stupid or biblical crap from. Well, some people may find what I have to say stupid, but nobody will find it biblical.

no not stupid i welcome opinions

My personal stance is that I am very pro-choice and not at all against euthanasia if it is what somebody wants, especially in cases where someone's quality of life and mobility is such that they actually need assistance to carry that act out.

That said, there is a big difference between a "not good or unknown" prognosis and one of imminent, unavoidable, painful and certain death. I am not so sure that you would want to put yourself and your possibilities in the same boat as some of the cases where the death would certainly have to be considered euthanasia.


yes that is v true... im not sure my prognosis only that i am not gettig better only worse. and maybe with help my life would be better i dont know

There's euthanasia... And then there's suicide because life hurts. I am thinking that you're on this forum for a reason. And I don't think it's impossible to bring your quality of life up from zero.

im here to help mainly and also cos i do battle my own shit sometimes. and cos of what i did for a living b4 i got ill, it means i can access help for those in the uk easily for others.
ty for replying

 

[Stranger1]

Hey Soliloquise,
That is definitely a hard question to answer. I look at my brother in law who went from being a vibrant very active person, to finding out he has three brain tumors. He had them removed one at a time and is now a walking vegetable. My sister has to wait on him 24/7 because he can't do anything for himself.
He lays there and just cries all the time because he does have moments of clarity. He is in constant pain from migrane headaches since he had the surgeries.
I am selfish because I don't want to see him die, but I also don't want to see him suffer. His doctor told my sister this last visit that he doesn't think he will live thru the year. So do you let him suffer until he dies or do you let him have euthanasia. I really am having a hard time trying to answer that one. I guess if they can control the pain medically I would have to go that route. Like I said I am selfish and have some hope left that his quality of life might be able to improve. ~Joseph~

 

[soliloquise]

now your asking for an in depth debate worthy of parliment lol.

in my own opinion which is neither right or wrong i believe that someone who is in amazing pain due to medical reasons and have a very short time to live because of this then just maybe it would be ok, but it will still need to be the very last option.
for any other reason then no, it is still the wrong thing as i believe with time and patiance anything can be overcome.

only an opinion

ty opinions are good lol x

 

[soliloquise]

In relation to this did anyone in the UK see the television programme
'A Weekend in Switzerland' on Sunday night.
It was a very moving description of this very subject.
Personally I believe it is suicide, tbh we treat our animals better than we do our fellow human beings, a dog who is suffering and has no quality of life or hope of improvement is 'put down'. We do not give our fellow human beings suffering from terminal physical illness that right.
Sf is obviously not the place for me to argue the rights and wrongs of that and can I also say that although when we are in the grip of depression and suicidal feelings we feel that our live is not worth living and that there is no hope of improvement, I am actual proof that things can and do improve.

ty for this x im not so much depressed as in clinically but in 24/7 pain and not able to look after myslef or do anything

 

[soliloquise]

Hey Soliloquise,
That is definitely a hard question to answer. I look at my brother in law who went from being a vibrant very active person, to finding out he has three brain tumors. He had them removed one at a time and is now a walking vegetable. My sister has to wait on him 24/7 because he can't do anything for himself.
He lays there and just cries all the time because he does have moments of clarity. He is in constant pain from migrane headaches since he had the surgeries.
I am selfish because I don't want to see him die, but I also don't want to see him suffer. His doctor told my sister this last visit that he doesn't think he will live thru the year. So do you let him suffer until he dies or do you let him have euthanasia. I really am having a hard time trying to answer that one. I guess if they can control the pain medically I would have to go that route. Like I said I am selfish and have some hope left that his quality of life might be able to improve. ~Joseph~

that is a dilemma and is what i mean.. his quality of life is awful
ty x

 

[andyc68]

thats the thing

if someone is actually dying, say in the later stages of cancer and wish to take their own life with dignity then i can see the reason but, if theres a chance that someday things will improve then i disagree.

if someone was crippled due to some illness and in a lot of pain and goes thru with assisted suicide and then a year later a cure is found, how will the family react.
i do understand the many reasons this is considered as an option but i still think its suicide once you strip it down to the bare bones.

 

[soliloquise]

thats the thing

if someone is actually dying, say in the later stages of cancer and wish to take their own life with dignity then i can see the reason but, if theres a chance that someday things will improve then i disagree.

peoiple have died from ME but a lot end up in situations like the previous posters relative..

if someone was crippled due to some illness and in a lot of pain and goes thru with assisted suicide and then a year later a cure is found, how will the family react.

my family wouldnt care except my cousin

i do understand the many reasons this is considered as an option but i still think its suicide once you strip it down to the bare bones.

yes. i guess it is. im not sure its wrong tho. im confused lol

 

[the fleet asleep]

this is truly a subject that splits me in half, on more than one level

on one hand, i feel as though life is equal, no matter its shell. does the spark of life that resides in a dog, or a horse not the same that dwells within a human? does concious recognition of ones existance add value to it? if not, then what makes euthanizing a dog, or racehorse not the same basic action as the one taken to relieve a human of its life?

if not, wheres the line? at what point does a living creature become too smart to put down? could you ethically kill a dolphin or a chimp knowing its intelect is the same as a 6 year old human? if so, could you not ethically euthanize a child under that same reasoning?

this bothers me, that we make the distinction between forms of life only when you feel as though it needs to end. if a person comes to feel as though they are a drain on everything around them, and may always be in this state, then why wouldnt euthanasea be a viable option. if one is terminally ill, why shouldnt they be given control of the only innevitability left?

curse my need to fight for both sides on so many subjects.

while i dont particularly feel like life is inherently beautiful, i believe that its the softest piece of clay youll ever be given task to mold. even the worst of people can be brilliant, and even the prettiest of faces can be sinister. i think that we fail to realize how the gentlest of manipulations can mold us in ways so profound, we cant even realize it when it happens. many times, it seems, the only time we do come to those realizations is when we feel we need to change them, and changing something that happened so naturally can be like forcing a stream to move against itself once youve channeled it so extensively.

sometimes i think that to want to die is to want to avoid the work that comes with wanting change. in my own case, i know for a fact that i am suicidal because i am collapsing under the weight of this task. i know that change is theoretically possible, but the work involved in reaching my necessary change is more than im capable of shouldering at the moment (possibly permanently, all chance observed). i do recognize it as just this, not the world conspiring against me, not god punishing me, not fate giving me a swift kick to the bollocks. its my inability to take the clay thats been molded slowly in the wrong direction for years, and molding it back into something that i can be happy with. maybe then, i could learn to accept the things i cannot change

i dont think its ever a matter of hope, only a matter of how much work you need to do to get yourself to a happy place. euthanasea is effectively admitting you are unable to do the work. even a terminally ill person could live out their last days in relative happiness if they did the work.

then again, i wouldnt know

all in all, i can honestly say i dont know. if youve fought 110% for years, and youve exhausted all resources, who am i to tell anyone whther or not they should be allowed to die. at the same time, i think that 99.99% of people who would want to euthanize themselves are people who have accepted their situation without having put up so much as a whimper of a fight. i think i lean much further to the pro life side, all said though

sorry for my grammar, or if ive gone on on a rant, im half asleep. great topic for discussion though

 

[soliloquise]

this is truly a subject that splits me in half, on more than one level

on one hand, i feel as though life is equal, no matter its shell. does the spark of life that resides in a dog, or a horse not the same that dwells within a human? does concious recognition of ones existance add value to it? if not, then what makes euthanizing a dog, or racehorse not the same basic action as the one taken to relieve a human of its life?

i do too..

if not, wheres the line? at what point does a living creature become too smart to put down? could you ethically kill a dolphin or a chimp knowing its intelect is the same as a 6 year old human? if so, could you not ethically euthanize a child under that same reasoning?

this bothers me, that we make the distinction between forms of life only when you feel as though it needs to end. if a person comes to feel as though they are a drain on everything around them, and may always be in this state, then why wouldnt euthanasea be a viable option. if one is terminally ill, why shouldnt they be given control of the only innevitability left?

what if one can decide lucidly for themselves? or decided in a wil b4 they got incapable

curse my need to fight for both sides on so many subjects.

no is why i am confused too.. i see all angles

while i dont particularly feel like life is inherently beautiful, i believe that its the softest piece of clay youll ever be given task to mold. even the worst of people can be brilliant, and even the prettiest of faces can be sinister. i think that we fail to realize how the gentlest of manipulations can mold us in ways so profound, we cant even realize it when it happens. many times, it seems, the only time we do come to those realizations is when we feel we need to change them, and changing something that happened so naturally can be like forcing a stream to move against itself once youve channeled it so extensively.

bloody hell that was eloquent

sometimes i think that to want to die is to want to avoid the work that comes with wanting change. in my own case, i know for a fact that i am suicidal because i am collapsing under the weight of this task. i know that change is theoretically possible, but the work involved in reaching my necessary change is more than im capable of shouldering at the moment (possibly permanently, all chance observed). i do recognize it as just this, not the world conspiring against me, not god punishing me, not fate giving me a swift kick to the bollocks. its my inability to take the clay thats been molded slowly in the wrong direction for years, and molding it back into something that i can be happy with. maybe then, i could learn to accept the things i cannot change

i dont think its ever a matter of hope, only a matter of how much work you need to do to get yourself to a happy place. euthanasea is effectively admitting you are unable to do the work. even a terminally ill person could live out their last days in relative happiness if they did the work.

even wit hpain that cannot be managed? some cannot be. i think quality of life is so subjective

then again, i wouldnt know

all in all, i can honestly say i dont know. if youve fought 110% for years, and youve exhausted all resources, who am i to tell anyone whther or not they should be allowed to die. at the same time, i think that 99.99% of people who would want to euthanize themselves are people who have accepted their situation without having put up so much as a whimper of a fight. i think i lean much further to the pro life side, all said though

sorry for my grammar, or if ive gone on on a rant, im half asleep. great topic for discussion though

i think thats the thing.. maybe trying all resources,, i havent yet.. but hopefully when i get the help i need my life will improve

 

[mdmefontaine]

...i'll weigh in with my opinion, just my opinion, for what it's worth

as far as whether or not euthanasia/suicide is wrong, i think you have to answer that for yourself. not just 'you', each of us. we know, inside, whether it is wrong or not. we are all 'alive', and the life force inside us, wants to live. otherwise, most of us would be dead by now and this forum would be empty. but it remains busy and full because we are struggling, to stay alive.....even when it gets so painful we are sure the pain alone will kill us.

society will always judge suicide as 'wrong', or 'selfish'. sometimes it is based on religious constructs - or spiritual beliefs - or a personal and social mores and codes. but ''society'' as a whole - is a different set of persons than we are - the ones who KNOW what it feels like to be in pain, whether physically, emotionally, or both. .. to the degree that we just want it to stop!

lastly, i believe we are here for a reason. we are supposed to learn something. and to teach something. we are supposed to put our life-force out into the world - whether we have a big or a small circle - and some of us are going to have easier times than others. AND as long as we are out there, living, we have the HOPE that things will get better, and who knows, the next day may take us around the corner. . . our life might change . . . then we can share that hope with the world. :twocents:

 

[porcelain child]

Heyahh Sam...

I don't think but i could be wrong i don't think someone who is in such pain euthanisia is bad.. It is like suicide.. suicide is legal.. people do it everyday... the only difference is suicide you are doing it by yourself...

Your asking for our opionion on it.. are you thinking about it?

How is it going with the referrals have they got anywhere? Keep fighting hunni...

I am here for you hunni...

Claire...

 

[Dave_N]

The problem with legalized euthanasia is that it has the potential of being abused. I remember there was a doctor who used to perform euthanasias on people. What was his name? Dr. Kevorkian or something.