Maybe you're right. Infact you are... I suppose I apologize to Kharma, I did act in a dickish way. In the end, despite his conclusions, he brings up extremely valid points. It's just when you start saying.. it is immoral for us "all", for any context of a problem.. that feels like an assualt. Maybe it's an assualt of reality, but it's an invasive perspective in it's own way that shouldn't be forced upon everyone, but honestly chosen as a concious choice to avoid or accept, simply because it defines who we are. If we have to live by the perspective moralities of any mass, it changes who we would naturally become in our environment and .. people. Species.. however you want to look at it. When you go that deep, and then say it is immoral to have a child, which is at the very least one our natural aspects.. that's a very direct challenge and connection between us all. It puts a realistic heavy weight there... I suppose if it works for someone.. but damn. The problems associated to over population shouldn't be the deterent or reason we look,(and find) that everyone is a person and we're doing this all together.
That's a choice... a very connective reflective choice. (well it's very much your own, and what that means to you I don't know... I just know that when you "know" that "we" are immoral for not taking every one of our species into account for one of the most natural aspects of what makes us who we are.. that's a compromise. One we're challenging in our own socities so we can maintain our own in our construction. But if we took realistically every issue of every country into consideration and looked at a level of "acceptable" living conditions, and contrasted our "excess" of this acceptable living in our own countries.. we'd fuel a massive guilt trip, consumption, recreation, progression shift.
We don't. Because we hope that the children we bring into our societies, countries, families, "are free" to take what they want into consideration and not be born into guilt.
A child born tomorrow would be born under the guise that we have a overpopulation issue and have this geared in a overall directional drive that encompasses us as a whole. Simply because, essentially it's immoral to have children at this point.
So no more children.
You explain that one to me. The immorality isn't with children being brought into the world, it's on how we see the individual, ......... "we" to "you" "me" "i" . You're telling me I have to stop even comprehending something, to compromise for "my" "brother", "sister", "Neighbour", future............ and really it's not about the children or that. But the rationals you're guilt tripping(making "We you me i" aware of) make "We you me i" aware and able to comprehend a series of overall compounding issues that moral.......
ug. Maybe my frustration wasn't with you Kharma... but it's to have to battle this position again. It's crafty.... feels like a massive guilt trip, and for all the wrong reasons.
We are morally working together to come together so we can make overall choices and actions that affect the betterment of our species, without destroying an aspect of our species with our intervention.
Something like that.. you don't tell people those positions are immoral. It would be immoral for our socities to collapse to that point before we were tackeling every single problem that we accepted as a whole that was leading to this issue.
... i want a more refined reason why we work together, not one based off of the fear of destruction or any negative reasons that bring about unification to enmass decide the fact of another living beings lifestyle. We can barely understand our own, and with every single new conclusion and definition, we adapt out of it to still be free of our own definitions. Or try to. Forcing unification is forcing the idealogy to fracture. It's not something you make our life, or neighbours or friends or families or partners or yourself have to do. It's something we should ... well are being forced to understand and "transitionalize" into that choice. But slamming that it's immoral to have a child now is an echo at best to the future.
Fine...
So you've compromised? Why should anyone else compromise like you do. Why should I be forced to take onboard the problems of our species as a whole, ..........
I don't know why I have to defend myself to those sorts of statments. You've made that choice for yourself. It would be down right stupid for our countries to realistically start looking at everyones problems in the world all at once. It'd drain us till we knew we couldn't compromise. Then we'd hold and try to enjoy our lives while always aware of the suffering of other people in their lifes. Effectively gearing us to tackel one of the major aspects of who we are "again en mass" when parts of our natural freedom, is put through a checklist of what we can realistically take into consideration, because of everyone else.
The immorality(if you want to..) for the creation of this overall problem of over population was lost along time ago by simply exploration away from the whole, and a disconnection of the whole and our planet. You're mentally grounding everyone to the dirt we stand on, to the realistic representation of our existences, through a defined perception on life that is enforced. In the beginning stages... by morality.
So I do say fuck you for being loud about it. Because I don't think you will change your position, so the morality I have that makes me feel it is alright to have a child.. i won't let be destroyed by the weight of the world. So I'd rather contribute to saving the freedom that is associated with that, instead of making someone who by no fault of their own is, was, will be born into this world, have to suffer and endure that weighting direction mentality. Morality is supposed to be a becon, at best. Not a ................. grr..
Messing about with morality, the things that connect every single person about. Maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was the basis of this question, just stamped about.
Too many people are living their own lives and have been based off of the ways they were born into, that was the foundations for all of our countries more or less. Freedom.
Unification of a whole that retains the respect for all life that has been sought out can't come at the compromise if morality issues.. or our freedoms that we have strived to maintain and emphasis so that we can all exist without ...
That's precious. So the idea of something more precious should be there for everyone well before the abuse of our freedoms is put to the challenge. Infact it sorta demands it. The guilt trip that causes those questions to come about is .. a bad way of moving forward. Guilt tripping yourself or anyone to move is making them do something. They're not doing it.
Manipulating them into doing it against their knowledge is wrong. There are no right way of shouting at the world, you are wrong. Not on the basis of having children, or continueing on our species.
Anyhow, you can't stop births. We need the continued evolution if you want to diverge the topic. So you're selecting who has children, which is the more "genetically" fit. Which comes with it all those defining qualities we so readily breath in an label on ourselves(hopefully not) about why and who we are. What we are, .. what i am. Who i am.
Children come with so much, they come with every essence of freedom we have in ourselves. Or .. to level it. A quick fuck.
It's a quick guilt trip into imposing and unifying the world. And one that shouldnt be explored. We are at best ignorant, but not immoral. Society speaks to the people very softly.. envoking what society says is dangerously like a dog chasing it's own tail. Until someone starts taking charge and using these accepted problems to motivate and enforce certain "acceptable" practices.
Society is stupid. It flares up occassioanly. But it's acceptable compromise that moves with it's moral actions can be strenuous on people when they are forced to adhere to them. When naturally, they're striving to remove the problem.
Your immorality with the world.... ... idk how to say this, but if you want to be honest, if you feel that's immoral. You must feel alot of shits immoral, and be morally outraged by the usage and justifactions for our ways of life in contrast to how other people in our world live.
I think they call that transition, or should.. one of the main bonds between society and the people that encompass it.
Why should you feel guilty for someone dying and suffering and not having the freedoms and abilties to breath, eat, dream, move, think, chose, act, play, experience that you do. Shouldnt you if you want to motivate yourself, .... remember you are not alone, and there are ways of contributing to dealing with these problems, so you can freely on your own concious be able to feel free about having a child.
Feels like a manipulative response to me... CAuse i dont understand what you mean. I dont understand how you can connect with everyone like that...
Unless this isnt your primary concern, and your worried about the array of morality our socities that do have these freedoms are expressing themselves.
That's not your fault. But if you feel so passionate about it, ....
Explain your point of view. Cause im already terrified . What if we make a mistake What if we take away from someone something that was never there just by whispering the idea.
Then.. i think your fucked. Cause you're taking everything on board. And really...
When it comes to unity, Id rather that was about something productive .. than finding itself through guilt and suffering. It's just using unification as a bandade..
I donno. You can smite my responses down for not being respective, or diplomatic or logical or even making sense. Drivel as you put it... But when you come barging in and turning a clash between the individual and a group body into a blanketed easy answer.. it's giving up on what everyone has been living and enduring. The ones alive, the ones dead... the ones who have a moment of hope for something better than what they're stuck in. The compromise is a snake eating it's own tail now.. Simply saying stop is ...
"who gave you that right?" It's personal choice. You can't fault people who were born in a free society from being who they are, and contrasting what they are doing to the suffering of someone else.
Well you can, but that's just dropping the book, and not looking at the realities that are creating these problems. Sure you may know and see a system that is and has been fueling suffering in the world. Ill drop this in there, most people are never aware of it. We get hints, but we are allowed to live in our lives as free as we can in princple. .. And that is being challenged and refined.
We dont understand ourselves nor eachother enough to work together. So blanketing people with immoral statments is .. No.
The specific situations are horrible enough as it is as we all start seeing them and realising we can't hide from them in our own countries. Tackeling the safety of the world and halting our natural/refined progress is so dangerous. The world should work together to create a way for everyone to live equally and with opportunities, and the ability to ..
idk. I just get very opposed to being forced to accept anything because i was born in this time. People choose to stand up against abuses while protecting the most free parts of what makes us what we are. or who they are.. or however you want to see it.
You are free to make your own opinons, and state your own objections. So why would you use your freedom to impose restrictions on someone elses freedoms? Why not try to take away the honest suffering and pain of this world and give these people the opportunity to have a real free life of these parts of our existence?
That's very general... and full of abuse in itself.
We look after our own.. we still are struggeling to see that everyone is part of something. Infact, alot of people strive to not be part of a whole. If we had the capacity to help honest real situations we would. But you have then, subjective interpretation of when someone is morally or immorally fit to have a child. People don't need the weight of the world on their shoulders when they are considering having a child. That's a long term theft of something so very precious. It's bad enough when we do it to the individual, let alone every person.
Society tries.. but ..
That's a choice... a very connective reflective choice. (well it's very much your own, and what that means to you I don't know... I just know that when you "know" that "we" are immoral for not taking every one of our species into account for one of the most natural aspects of what makes us who we are.. that's a compromise. One we're challenging in our own socities so we can maintain our own in our construction. But if we took realistically every issue of every country into consideration and looked at a level of "acceptable" living conditions, and contrasted our "excess" of this acceptable living in our own countries.. we'd fuel a massive guilt trip, consumption, recreation, progression shift.
We don't. Because we hope that the children we bring into our societies, countries, families, "are free" to take what they want into consideration and not be born into guilt.
A child born tomorrow would be born under the guise that we have a overpopulation issue and have this geared in a overall directional drive that encompasses us as a whole. Simply because, essentially it's immoral to have children at this point.
So no more children.
You explain that one to me. The immorality isn't with children being brought into the world, it's on how we see the individual, ......... "we" to "you" "me" "i" . You're telling me I have to stop even comprehending something, to compromise for "my" "brother", "sister", "Neighbour", future............ and really it's not about the children or that. But the rationals you're guilt tripping(making "We you me i" aware of) make "We you me i" aware and able to comprehend a series of overall compounding issues that moral.......
ug. Maybe my frustration wasn't with you Kharma... but it's to have to battle this position again. It's crafty.... feels like a massive guilt trip, and for all the wrong reasons.
We are morally working together to come together so we can make overall choices and actions that affect the betterment of our species, without destroying an aspect of our species with our intervention.
Something like that.. you don't tell people those positions are immoral. It would be immoral for our socities to collapse to that point before we were tackeling every single problem that we accepted as a whole that was leading to this issue.
... i want a more refined reason why we work together, not one based off of the fear of destruction or any negative reasons that bring about unification to enmass decide the fact of another living beings lifestyle. We can barely understand our own, and with every single new conclusion and definition, we adapt out of it to still be free of our own definitions. Or try to. Forcing unification is forcing the idealogy to fracture. It's not something you make our life, or neighbours or friends or families or partners or yourself have to do. It's something we should ... well are being forced to understand and "transitionalize" into that choice. But slamming that it's immoral to have a child now is an echo at best to the future.
Fine...
So you've compromised? Why should anyone else compromise like you do. Why should I be forced to take onboard the problems of our species as a whole, ..........
I don't know why I have to defend myself to those sorts of statments. You've made that choice for yourself. It would be down right stupid for our countries to realistically start looking at everyones problems in the world all at once. It'd drain us till we knew we couldn't compromise. Then we'd hold and try to enjoy our lives while always aware of the suffering of other people in their lifes. Effectively gearing us to tackel one of the major aspects of who we are "again en mass" when parts of our natural freedom, is put through a checklist of what we can realistically take into consideration, because of everyone else.
The immorality(if you want to..) for the creation of this overall problem of over population was lost along time ago by simply exploration away from the whole, and a disconnection of the whole and our planet. You're mentally grounding everyone to the dirt we stand on, to the realistic representation of our existences, through a defined perception on life that is enforced. In the beginning stages... by morality.
So I do say fuck you for being loud about it. Because I don't think you will change your position, so the morality I have that makes me feel it is alright to have a child.. i won't let be destroyed by the weight of the world. So I'd rather contribute to saving the freedom that is associated with that, instead of making someone who by no fault of their own is, was, will be born into this world, have to suffer and endure that weighting direction mentality. Morality is supposed to be a becon, at best. Not a ................. grr..
Messing about with morality, the things that connect every single person about. Maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was the basis of this question, just stamped about.
Too many people are living their own lives and have been based off of the ways they were born into, that was the foundations for all of our countries more or less. Freedom.
Unification of a whole that retains the respect for all life that has been sought out can't come at the compromise if morality issues.. or our freedoms that we have strived to maintain and emphasis so that we can all exist without ...
That's precious. So the idea of something more precious should be there for everyone well before the abuse of our freedoms is put to the challenge. Infact it sorta demands it. The guilt trip that causes those questions to come about is .. a bad way of moving forward. Guilt tripping yourself or anyone to move is making them do something. They're not doing it.
Manipulating them into doing it against their knowledge is wrong. There are no right way of shouting at the world, you are wrong. Not on the basis of having children, or continueing on our species.
Anyhow, you can't stop births. We need the continued evolution if you want to diverge the topic. So you're selecting who has children, which is the more "genetically" fit. Which comes with it all those defining qualities we so readily breath in an label on ourselves(hopefully not) about why and who we are. What we are, .. what i am. Who i am.
Children come with so much, they come with every essence of freedom we have in ourselves. Or .. to level it. A quick fuck.
It's a quick guilt trip into imposing and unifying the world. And one that shouldnt be explored. We are at best ignorant, but not immoral. Society speaks to the people very softly.. envoking what society says is dangerously like a dog chasing it's own tail. Until someone starts taking charge and using these accepted problems to motivate and enforce certain "acceptable" practices.
Society is stupid. It flares up occassioanly. But it's acceptable compromise that moves with it's moral actions can be strenuous on people when they are forced to adhere to them. When naturally, they're striving to remove the problem.
Your immorality with the world.... ... idk how to say this, but if you want to be honest, if you feel that's immoral. You must feel alot of shits immoral, and be morally outraged by the usage and justifactions for our ways of life in contrast to how other people in our world live.
I think they call that transition, or should.. one of the main bonds between society and the people that encompass it.
Why should you feel guilty for someone dying and suffering and not having the freedoms and abilties to breath, eat, dream, move, think, chose, act, play, experience that you do. Shouldnt you if you want to motivate yourself, .... remember you are not alone, and there are ways of contributing to dealing with these problems, so you can freely on your own concious be able to feel free about having a child.
Feels like a manipulative response to me... CAuse i dont understand what you mean. I dont understand how you can connect with everyone like that...
Unless this isnt your primary concern, and your worried about the array of morality our socities that do have these freedoms are expressing themselves.
That's not your fault. But if you feel so passionate about it, ....
Explain your point of view. Cause im already terrified . What if we make a mistake What if we take away from someone something that was never there just by whispering the idea.
Then.. i think your fucked. Cause you're taking everything on board. And really...
When it comes to unity, Id rather that was about something productive .. than finding itself through guilt and suffering. It's just using unification as a bandade..
I donno. You can smite my responses down for not being respective, or diplomatic or logical or even making sense. Drivel as you put it... But when you come barging in and turning a clash between the individual and a group body into a blanketed easy answer.. it's giving up on what everyone has been living and enduring. The ones alive, the ones dead... the ones who have a moment of hope for something better than what they're stuck in. The compromise is a snake eating it's own tail now.. Simply saying stop is ...
"who gave you that right?" It's personal choice. You can't fault people who were born in a free society from being who they are, and contrasting what they are doing to the suffering of someone else.
Well you can, but that's just dropping the book, and not looking at the realities that are creating these problems. Sure you may know and see a system that is and has been fueling suffering in the world. Ill drop this in there, most people are never aware of it. We get hints, but we are allowed to live in our lives as free as we can in princple. .. And that is being challenged and refined.
We dont understand ourselves nor eachother enough to work together. So blanketing people with immoral statments is .. No.
The specific situations are horrible enough as it is as we all start seeing them and realising we can't hide from them in our own countries. Tackeling the safety of the world and halting our natural/refined progress is so dangerous. The world should work together to create a way for everyone to live equally and with opportunities, and the ability to ..
idk. I just get very opposed to being forced to accept anything because i was born in this time. People choose to stand up against abuses while protecting the most free parts of what makes us what we are. or who they are.. or however you want to see it.
You are free to make your own opinons, and state your own objections. So why would you use your freedom to impose restrictions on someone elses freedoms? Why not try to take away the honest suffering and pain of this world and give these people the opportunity to have a real free life of these parts of our existence?
That's very general... and full of abuse in itself.
We look after our own.. we still are struggeling to see that everyone is part of something. Infact, alot of people strive to not be part of a whole. If we had the capacity to help honest real situations we would. But you have then, subjective interpretation of when someone is morally or immorally fit to have a child. People don't need the weight of the world on their shoulders when they are considering having a child. That's a long term theft of something so very precious. It's bad enough when we do it to the individual, let alone every person.
Society tries.. but ..
If you believe the world needs dictating too.. When I said dangerous breed... I was serious. It's a delicate thing to even comprehend.. the fact that you feel closed to it, says to me you feel the pressure of everything else, over who you are. If you wanted a child, and could give it the best possible free life and opportunity? You shouldnt be challenged. Infact.. the challenge or anyone assuming they can challenge you or anyone makes my skin crawl. Who has that right? And what justifications are they using to dilute your freedom and life? .. and what options are they give to challenge these real issues,..
Telling someone no, vs trying to help are completely different intrusions.
It's important to remember how precious having a child is. "do it with joy or don't do it at all". That's where it at some place sorta stems from. Having a child is beautiful... dont forget that the next time you say it's immoral for someone to have a child. If it's ignorance.. remind or help.. if it's abuse? ... oh fucking hell. Thats the scariest problem or one of them.
problems get abused by the best of intentions
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