Is suicide ever justified?

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by Belladonna, May 1, 2009.

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  1. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    This is a question that drives me crazy. I have way too many reasons to think suicide isn't necessarily horrible, if a person is in a lot of pain or a burden to people/society, is it ever justifiable thinking that my one death is a good thing rather than bad. As far as losing a friend/sibling/family member goes, it's always hard, and suicide will always bring up questions like what could I have done, but what if the answer is nothing. I know you love me, and even if I don't quite get that, I know that there would be plenty of tears and lamenting, but what about the tears and lamenting due to my being a pain in the ass? What if I really have nothing to give because I'm already psychically dead and have trouble even being independent instead a burden?

    I ask this because I've often heard people say that suicide is NEVER justified and the negative consequences never make up for ANYTHING. I guess I need to understand that because I've already violated my own rules. I make up rules for myself just because I think they are empirically, inarguable right, one of them was not to take out life insurance or make a will. In short, make it easier to die. I've been going too far where I've broken my own rules and even started to say goodbyes and try to prepare people. That's really messed up, isn't it?
  2. sithspit

    sithspit Well-Known Member

    The problem with answering this is, suicide doesn't actually benefit anyone in the long run. Someone has lost their life, and the people close to them have lost them too. You could justify the idea of it I suppose, but it still wouldn't make the reality any less severe or painful.
  3. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, even euthanasia is tragic, right? I guess I'm thinking about my brother saying that if I'm in all this pain and I don't end it because I don't want to hurt him, that makes him a selfish bastard (his words, not mine). I wouldn't call him selfish because just him saying this makes him un-selfish. When I had a therapist, I didn't want to cause her problems by having a patent that attempted/committed suicide. But, how is my dying of the swine flu better than suicide if people see that I'm a drain on everyone? Maybe it's a family thing, but I've had sick family members that died and even though everyone is sad at losing them, still know that it is better for everyone for that person to die--they are out of pain and we, the survivors simply have to mourn and get over it.
  4. plates

    plates Well-Known Member

    depends who you are living for. are you living for other people or yourself?

    i'd never stick around for 'friends and family' because i have none and they definitely would not be a reason to stick around if the pain got too much.

    so to your question, yes, it is justified. i don't see anything morally wrong about it.
  5. shades

    shades Staff Alumni

    I don't think anything you're saying is messed up. I've had some of the same feelings and issues, specifically in telling my sister that my death was imminent many times.

    I also told my mother several years ago that I couldn't take it anymore and that I was going to off myself. Believe me, I wasn't looking for sympathy, I was just trying to prepare them. Most of this was drug induced, but the fact that I told them caused so many problems that it would take me a week to state them here.

    You are not alone in these feelings. I think I already told you in another post how helpful you've been to others here already and I don't want to trigger anybody, but as far as justification: If someone is terminal and in severe pain with no hope of recovery...I don't see how anyone should tell that person what they should or should not do.

    If I were in that position, I would want it to be my decision...and mine alone.

    I hope you are not in that position because you have mentioned physical issues a couple of times. I would welcome a pm from you if you don't want to discuss it openly.
  6. poisonedresistance

    poisonedresistance Well-Known Member

    why should you have to justify your actions?

    Suicide is simply another way of getting to the end of life.

    At the end of the day, it does matter how good (Mother Terasa) or bad (Hitler) you are/were death is simply the end of you,,,,, not everything else,,,,,,

    Life goes on
  7. I think the issue in socity is people look at suicide as a completly taboo subject, sometimes
    its easier to scorn something you dont understand. We are all guilty of this, not discounting myself.
    There are many reasons for someone feeling that bad they want to end it all,
    sometimes the biggest thing is fear itself. Being afraid of the unknown or even being afraid of seeking help
    and it not working.
    Those who have lost a loved one a friend family member will never understand why that person choose to end there life, the same cliches
    go around 'why didnt they try and talk' and 'they could of spoken to me'. Sometimes the biggest fear is that you may confide how you
    feel in someone a loved on a friend and a family member and the fear is you tell them whatever the issue may be and they reject you or worse
    dont belive what you are saying (i know how much this can hurt:sad:)
    Without going through my own experiences on this i would feel happier if i could end it i know too well that
    you can come across as happy go lucky always have a smile on your face, But sometimes there is something inside you that has broken and
    you dont know how to fix it. You become tired with the world but the biggest fear is someone finding out you feel this way and not understanding even
    rejecting you. Would that be justified i am suffering to be around a world that doesnt want me?:sad:
    I think of it like this, and you may think its slightly childish and an innocent wide eyed way of looking it. I would never ever judge anyone for killing
    themselves i would not like anyone to go through pain or suffering. But my only consolation is that they are at peace, and that in turn brings me
    i am not going to say whether it is right or wrong, i dont know i really dont. For a start is there a
    god? is there an after life? what happens to your soul when you leave this earth? These are questions however intelligent man belives he is we will
    never have the answers too. In gods eyes (if you believe in God) sucide is wrong. But this goes back to what right does man have to judge another man,
    Take an example say someone had suffered horrible abuse as a child they grow up keeping it a secret but it slowly ate away at them to the point they
    wanted to kill themselves, they then confided in someone who yes tried to help but then couldnt. This person then entrusted someone else and so and
    so forth. They tried various treatments and nothing worked, would you really truly blame them for wanting to end it, i couldnt.
    I believe every experiance however good however bad, however much they nearly broken you makes you who you are, makes you the person you are. And once
    again this may sound childish but if you can make one person smile each day one person laugh then you have a purpose, a small seed of hope that you
    should cling onto because you will never know what it will grow into.
    Anyway i rambled enough i hope this all makes sense, all i would say to anyone feeling that low is there is always hope. However fragile or slim it may
    seem there is always someone who will understand and try to help be patient they may not understand but have the willingless too and if your trying to help
    someone always remember a hug is priceless.

    also apologises for my typos
  8. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    I guess I've never really lived for myself. I'm not sure I now how. The ONLY reason I stick around is guilt of hurting people.
  9. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    You've given me a ton to think about, thank you so much for that. I like the way you "ramble".
  10. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    Well, I guess I have to justify my actions to me, you know? As much hurt I'm dealing with, the worst thing I can do is be a person that ends up being hurtful to others. It isn't as simple as some shortcut to the end of life to me because no one else takes that shortcut so it ends up being me who has bailed on others. When is it ok to be that selfish? If Hitler committed suicide or his mother had an abortion like she planned, I think that would be good since the holocaust wouldn't have happened. If Mother Teresa would have been aborted or killed herself, many people in India would have suffered. If I could compare myself to either of them, my mental state would be easier, if I were such a great person, then suicide, to me, would be a bad thing, and if I were like Hitler, it would be a good thing. Since I'm somewhere in the middle, the answers aren't clear. I know you think that your death is death and that life will go on, and of course you are right when it comes to strangers, but when it comes to people that are attached to you in any way, that changes things. They don't get over suicide as well as a natural death. I know for sure that I was relieved that my suicidal friend died of a car accident instead of suicide and whenever I wonder, maybe it wasn't as much of an accident as the police say, that makes me feel worse.
  11. sithspit

    sithspit Well-Known Member

    I think people see suicide as preventable, that personal pain can go away, as opposed to something beyond the persons control. It's a human reaction. But sometimes that pain is beyond their control. In fact, I'd argue it's the case the majority of the time - after all, given the choice, I'd say everyone would stop pain if they could. No-one wants to die, they would rather live and be happy. So people who are suicidal must be beyond help, at the very least in their own minds.

    But, this is not always the case. Sometimes, with various means of support, things can improve. People have overcome it. And they want you to overcome it. You are never a burden on someone if they care. Ever heard the phrase "he ain't, heavy, he's my brother"? Well it's true. I have a twin brother who I would do anything for. He will never be a drain on me. I would give every hour I work, every penny I earn, to see him happy. I am certain there are people close to you who would feel the same.
  12. What if you have tried every means of support? i see what your seeing honestly i do. I dont think anyone should kill themselves without trying to find a way. I know some things work better for some people and some thinks have an opposite reaction.

    I know i tried thearpy but just talking to someone i didnt know or trust face to face i felt like an idiot i really did so i stopped that pushed people away when all i wanted to do at the time is talk to someone who knew and i felt i could trust. NOT that i am saying you shouldnt try it at least i can face myself in that respect yes i tried.

    The only thing i am holding onto is theres a few people that need me i know i couldnt justify it to myself because i know it will cause pain to them. but in time i know they wont need me. Maybe when i have finished withdrawing myself from the world i can withdraw myself.

    Anyway mindless rambleings again apologises:sad:
  13. poisonedresistance

    poisonedresistance Well-Known Member

    people forget that Hitler thought he was doing the right thing.

    dont justify your actions to others, you can only justify them to yourself.

    At the end of the day its your head on the pillow
  14. plates

    plates Well-Known Member

    that's really interesting you say that. do you feel that if your friend killed himself, you'd feel guilty for that?

    you sound like you put others way ahead before yourself. i was similar and i was dying for a lot of people around me many people do that. when you start living for yourself you truly start to live and experience life, it puts the pain, when i am suicidal in perspective, because i know what it is to live. that's just me though.

    i do hear what pain you're in and you're feeling like you're burdening everyone. i have felt so guilty for that in the past that i shut up and have tried not to burden people but this didn't take away what was going on inside.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2009
  15. sithspit

    sithspit Well-Known Member

    I know, but to those on the outside, suicide is preventable. They see it as something that can be controlled, because they don't understand. They just feel the loss and the hurt and think what could be done. To them, a disease is beyond your control, but because depression and mental illness has such a negative stigma, they either don't want to believe it, or want to blame something as a cause. Suicide is never inevitable, but at the same time depression isn't as easy to cure or prevent as those around you may think it is.
  16. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    Yes, you make a great point. At one point, my brother said, you haven't tried everything you can. I said, what haven't I tried. He said, you can move near me, you haven't tried that. I get where he's coming from and he has that hope that there is something, anything, that can save me. I poo-poo-ed his idea by saying, great, so I can move here and be dependent on you, I can't live like that, being dependent and a burden. It's unacceptable. That must have hurt him, this was just last night.
  17. Belladonna

    Belladonna Well-Known Member

    Well, you may have felt like an idiot but your words have been helping me and you don't sound like an idiot to me at all.
  18. sithspit

    sithspit Well-Known Member

    They want to help. I think it's not just the death that hurts when it's suicide, but the idea that they were living in pain and they wish they could've helped. At least you have a brother who is trying to help whilst you are living. You are loved. It is a wonderful feeling!
  19. plates

    plates Well-Known Member

    He's showing he cares and he loves you! I'm not sure how your relationship is with him though. But he's offering you a lot there, which shows that he's open to you moving near him? Why is it so bad to be dependent on someone for a while, especially when you are suffering the way you are? It's ok to ask for help and to receive it.
  20. Thank you:console:
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