Is this considered rape?

Discussion in 'Rape and Abuse' started by perfect-flaw, Dec 26, 2007.

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  1. perfect-flaw

    perfect-flaw Active Member

    Okay, I want everyone's opinion, because I've been getting such mixed answers from this, that I'm not too sure how to react.

    I met my ex boyfriend at his house at the end of October, and we were just going to talk. He's always been a very interesting friend of mine, and my current boyfriend had just proved he was a jerk by forcing a kiss on me, in which I pulled back.

    Anyways, we got slightly carried away, and he brought me to his basement. It was touching, kissing, things like that. And then he told me, very bluntly, that he wanted to take my virginity.

    I think I spent a while sitting at the steps that lead back up to the main floor, scared. He told be very clearly that if I wanted to, I could leave. But this, this was the guy that I love, that I have committed to, even though he obviously never felt the same way. I was reluctant. I didn't leave, not because I wanted to have sex, but because I didn't want to leave him.

    I asked him to give me a moment, and I sneaked upstairs, grabbed my cell phone in a panic, and texted my other guy friend "I am about to have sex with him. Help" Then, I locked myself in the bathroom, looked at the mirror, and told myself to calm down, that I had control, that I would let myself go as far as I could with him, and stop whenever I was too uncomfortable.

    I went back down to him, where he was waiting silently. He took my shirt off, I took his. We played around for a while, until He was only in his boxers, and I was underneath him, on the couch, with no shirt or bra on. At that moment, he looked at me, and told me again that he wanted it.

    I rambled on and on about how I was afraid to do this. How I wanted to lose it to him, but not now, not yet. I made excuses, and he got impatient.. so, I said these exact words to him.

    "If you want it, you'll have to force it out of me."

    He hesitated, and then, leaning over me, took my pants and everything else off, and, wearing a condom, had sex with me.

    It hurt. It hurt so much, that I had my eyes shut really tight, with tears leaking out of them, and I couldn't speak. I couldn't tell him to stop, I couldn't voice anything. I just lay there, motionless, biting the insides of my mouth.

    It wasn't a burn, it was an ache. A terrible ache, and at one moment, a sharp pain... Finally, I pressed my hand against his chest to push him away, but before I could even touch him, I heard the condom snap. A couple more thrusts, and he pulled out of me. I got up really quickly, and started gathering my clothes. My legs were shaking, and all I could think of, was keeping myself upright, cool, calm, and collected.

    He stopped me before I could go upstairs, and asked if I wouldn't mind giving him a blow job before I left... I apologized, said I couldn't, and left.

    I found out the next day that the reason it hurt so much at one point, was because he tore me open... not very much, it was actually quite small, and has healed over, but for the next few days, peeing, moving, sitting, all hurt.

    I didn't tell anyone for about a week, because I didn't know. I didn't know what to think of it, what to make of it at all. I took "Plan B" to make sure I didn't have to worry about a kid, but I only took it on the third day. In the mean time, I spent nights crying, and thinking, afraid. I even ended up naming the child I could have potential had.... Salvatore Ceiro Paesano.

    About a month after, we found each other again, he acted as if nothing had happened, and even got me to get on my knees for him twice, to pleasure him. I lost it, and finally he made me pick between being his sex slave for life, or leaving him alone and his friend, forever, and starting over.

    I haven't spoken to him or any of my friends since. My best friend, who was dating him, actually accused me of seducing him, and stopped talking to me, while still dating him. Eventually, they broke up. I couldn't talk to my other friends, because they spoke to him, and so I disappeared from everyone's life.

    Sorry, I'm trailing off.

    But, based on this, on the fact that I did not physically nor verbally stop him, other than that one line, and the constant excuses of the time not being right, I don't know if this could be considered rape.

    Some say it is. Some say it's assault, but not rape, and some say it was just a misunderstanding and no-one is at fault.

    I don't think I can accept the last one though... It's scarred me too much.

    I don't know what to think anymore...
  2. Melmoth the Wanderer

    Melmoth the Wanderer Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time. Reading your post was like reading about my own worst fears. I have a very difficult time saying "No" and being forceful about it, which is part of the reason why I am terrified of having any kind of relationship at all.

    I'm afraid that what happened would be hard to prove as rape or assault--though even when these occur without question, it's still difficult to get any justice. Here's a site that goes over the instances that can be considered as rape:

    Call or go to your local rape crisis center. Don't blame yourself for what happened. The guy should have been more aware of how you felt. He ruined your first time, but that doesn't mean he has to ruin your life or your future relationships.

    Keep us posted. :hug:
  3. perfect-flaw

    perfect-flaw Active Member

    I thought I was the only one with such a problem saying 'No' to certain things.

    I guess it's just because I was convinced that if I said 'No' he would do something else. It's not as if he has never been violent with me before.

    I don't know, I haven't taken an action against it, or with it. I'm kind of more focused on at least getting it sorted out in my head, before telling anyone, because it is really easy for him to say I consented, as I basically gave him the signal that read "I don't like this, but do as you please."

    Insecurity was a big factor in this. Maybe I was craving too much attention, that I attracted the wrong time.

    Oh well, the only real physical proof I'd have is my injury, and the blood on his shirt. But, what does that prove? That I had sex with him, yes. That I didn't consent?

    A lot of people assume that as soon as something like this happen, the first response is to either get physical or at the very least, verbal. I didn't. I've never had my opinion heard, and every time I do voice something, I'm usually hated upon because of it. So, I didn't say anything.

    :huh: I'm just confusing myself.
  4. Melancholy

    Melancholy Well-Known Member


    I don't suppose I can help, I did the wrong thing by not telling anyone when I was raped. Still in my mind I wonder what would have happened if I had told someone, but I can't change that. I would say tell someone, but of course that has to be your own choice. Just remember that the longer you leave it, the less likely it is that anything will result from it.

    Even if you don't tell anyone for legal etc. reasons, you should get a counsellor, or tell an existing one, when you have it sorted out in your head. No matter how sorted you think you have it, chances are you would benefit from talking to someone confidentially about it, and how it makes you feel.

    Take care,
  5. perfect-flaw

    perfect-flaw Active Member

    I haven't told anyone yet, really. Except my new boyfriend.

    He's worried about me. He doesn't know a lot about what's going on, and doesn't really understand too well how I feel, and I'm worried that I'm going to end up hurting him because of me being this way....

    Rape or not, he says my ex still acted reallly immature for his age and should have at least apologized....

    =/ He also made me promise to never let himself do something as stupid, or even anymore near as stupid as this, and that should anything happen, he never wants me to cut over him...

    I'm still not over it, but I'm trying, slowly... I'm hoping it will just go away, like he did..
  6. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    First of all, rape or not, that guy was a complete asshole. I wouldn't worry so much about the terminology about whether it was or wasn't "rape". How it made you feel is more important. That guy was completely insensitive to your needs and wants and any half-way decent human being would never have done what he did, period.

    But as for now, I'm worried about what your current b/f said. He said not to LET him do anything like that? As if it's YOUR responsibility to babysit him and make sure he doesnt go too far? That's scary. And then he even said that if he DID ever do anything like that, that you shouldn't CUT over him. I dunno girl, this sounds like a huge warning sign. He's already making excuses for possibly violating you for crying out loud. I would be very, very careful with this guy. Truth be told, I'd dump him.
  7. methinks thats taken the wrong way, i think he was using it as a figure of speech to say that he wouldnt do it
  8. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Really? If my husband/bf said to me "Don't ever let me stab you in the face, but if I do, please don't hurt yourself because of it", I would be a bit freaked out.
  9. Crue-K

    Crue-K Well-Known Member

    I think it is rape, even though it seems you didn't put up an enormous amount of struggle, you clearly made him aware that you were not comfortable with it yet he carried on, and then to ask for a blowjob afterwards is incomprehensible. The guy is a jerk and he is best out of your life.
  10. *shifty eyes*

    *shifty eyes* Active Member

    It's best he's out of your life.
    I have the same problem sort of I can't say no. Thankfully my current boyfriend completely understands this and knows when I can't go through with something, and cares enough to know that I'll try and if i cry he;ll comfort me.
  11. Petal

    Petal SF dreamer Staff Alumni SF Supporter

    i would consider that night in the basement rape. that guy was a complete assh*le, i have had the problem of not being able to say no, and its ruined me. at least he is out of your life now, please stay safe and take care :hug:
  12. Patch

    Patch Well-Known Member

    I'm so so sorry that he did that to you, sweety. I want you to know that it wasn't your fault. What he did was rape, none of this wishy-washy bullshit. Its not about you saying "NO" its about you saying "YES" the WHOLE time. He knew what he was doing. He used and manipulated you. It was NOT your fault.

    It may take some time to be able to trust another person, but never be afraid to tell them "no". If they love you and care about you, they will stop. I'm so sorry.
  13. diver200

    diver200 Senior Member

    Perfect: I am not sure if it matters anymore given the date of your original post, but I thought I'd share with you my thoughts. I am a lawyer that specialized in criminal law for 15 years. From a purely legal perspective, this probably was not a rape. I've quoted the relevant part of your post above. First of all, when you went upstairs, he let you freely go. That would be a big negative to proving rape, because you voluntarily went back. You could have left and never had any problem. Now, once you returned, a woman can say "no" up to the point where the penetration occurs, and it is a rape if it continues.

    It is not totally clear what you said up until the point at which you said "If you want it you'll have to force it out of me." But the statements you made up to that point also began with stating to him that you "wanted to lose it to him." Discussion between a couple when the woman is "hesitant" does not automatically amount to a statement that the woman is saying no. What would be required is to know specifically what was said. All of what you said is critical to determine if you said "no." When we look at the determination of the question if there was a "no" or not, we use a two step process. First, the law allows the male to come to a conclusion of whether or not there is consent. In other words, if he believed that it was okay, then step one is done. This is usually proved only by the male saying "yes, I believed that she said 'Yes'."

    However, there is also an "objectively reasonable test" used. Is the male taking clues that "make sense" to say that he reasonably believed he had consent. In other words, as we used to say, if my grandma would believe that he was reasonable in his belief, then it is okay for him to "proceed."

    Now this is why I say it probably was not rape. Based on your statements to him, you didn't really definitely say "no." Your statement that he would have to "force it from" you, is not a clear "no" nor a clear "yes." He may have believed it was a yes, but the question then becomes one of fact after that.... was his belief objectively reasonable. Some of the responses you have gotten to your post would say that it was not reasonable of him to believe that. A good prosecution lawyer could successfully argue that fact.

    But it is just as likely that a good defense lawyer could argue that: the fact that you returned to the basement, after he said he wanted to take your virginity, the fact that you did not stop him during the time when he was taking off your shirt, and you two "messed around," the fact that you said you did want to lose your virginity to him, and then even your statement that he would "have to force it from you" could, maybe, might be a statement that there is at least some consent. You also said he used a condom.... did he already have that on? Or did you lay there while he put it on....which would be an opportunity for you to say "no."

    It is possible, and I say only possible, that a jury would say that your statement was not a "no" and that he was reasonable in his belief to continue. The fact that it hurt is not necessarily a relevant fact, unless you told him it hurt and he refused to stop.... then it would be a sexual assault. There is absolutely NO legal "requirement" that you "put up a fight." It all comes down to what a jury would believe; back again to the reasonable belief of the male that it was okay, and a determination by the jury that he was reasonable in that conclusion.

    All of that is a rather dry, technical dissertation of the legal arguments. It does not excuse what he did. He certainly took advantage of you, and hurt your feelings in the meantime. Any man that would do that deserves to be castrated (and I say that as a man). I am really, really sorry for you, and I hope that you are able to seek counseling and work through this issue. No matter what, it is obvious that it has left you with an emotional scar, and there is no excuse for him to have done that and acted so cavalier when you saw him later. He stole from you the specialness of your first relationships, when you may not have been totally ready. He is a pig, and probably should be slaughtered. I will pray for you that you can put this behind you.
  14. Patch

    Patch Well-Known Member

    Did you study Canadian Law, or American Law? She's from T.O.
  15. diver200

    diver200 Senior Member

    True enough, my answer was based on American law. I don't know where T.O. is. However, American Law is based on common law brought from Europe (mostly England, but England took most of its law from Rome, as did most other European countries--which then, in turn settled most of the northern American continent). The elements of rape are largely similar around the world. While my analysis is based on "American" law, it is probably pretty safe to say that similar principles are applied in most countries, particularly for offenses like rape which have remained relatively unchanged for a very, very long time.

    The only thing that has really been added is that the belief of the male to consent must be reasonable on the objective standard has been added to common law in the past couple of decades. Before that, the defense of "mistaken belief" often applied. That is, if he was "mistaken" in his belief that consent existed, there was no offense--this manifested itself in the laws by requiring an affirmative statement of the lack of consent. In other words, the woman had to say, very specifically, "NO." Lacking that, many men escaped punishment.

    But you are right, I do not have specific knowledge of Canadian law. I'd still venture a guess that it is pretty similar.

    Most of all, I do want to stress that what happened was morally wrong. It just may, may, may not have been legally wrong. I still think the idiot should be strung up.
  16. SadDude87

    SadDude87 Well-Known Member

    Sorry you had a bad experience, but it's not rape. You thought you were in love, and had sex for the sake of the relationship. The guy gave you a chance to back out. Sounds to me like you were very nervous about the experience, but not willing to say no. Just because the experience then turns out to be painful does not automatically make it rape.

    I'm just making sure I have this right, but I read it and you never said no. To him, all he would have seen was a person who has consented to making out, kissing half naked etc .... but is nervous (as expected) to go all the way. He even asked you again before you had sex if it was OK. The guy could have been more sensitive about it for sure ... but the calls of wanting to string him up is ridiculous and an emotional response.

    Hope you have recovered from the experience.
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