It really is pathetic that...

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by LetItGo, Apr 16, 2009.

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  1. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni

    ..the only solution proposed to the global recession is lend, lend, lend - buy, buy, buy. Once you get past the new legal framework to keep banks in check its basically business as usual folks.

    In an age where we talk about rampant consumerism as the fuel that feeds our material and spiritual desires (instead of people, faith and nature), spiraling personal debt and ecological impoverishment for the sake of man getting his plastic trinkets, I really question this logic.

    Is this solution even remotely "sustainable"? Discuss
  2. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Nope not at all, but the poloitions know that when the shit hits the fan then the opposition party will likely be in power and receive the fallout :)
  3. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    The largest contributing factor to any recession is a cut in spending due to loss of consumer confidence.

    Loss of confidence means less spending means fewer jobs means less money means less spending.

    An infusion of cash into the system counteracts that quite effectively - more cash in the system means more jobs means more disposable means more spending means more cash in the system.

    They are both, as you can see, positive feedback cycles.

    Keynesian economics is very effective, in fact: government cuts spending and raises taxes in boom times, and raises spending and lowers taxes in bust times. There is definitely enough political will to deal with the busts, but it's really hard to get politicians to save money in boom times, so large debts occur.

    There is a solution to all of this... Dictatorships deal with this much more effectively, since you can plan longterm in a dictatorship... But, frankly, I'd rather deal with the recession.
  4. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    This is a good topic of discussion, so good call on bringing it up.

    Honestly, as an Economic Minor, I've found that there really is no consensus on how to get out of this rut. As much as it tries to present itself as a science, Economics is still largely theoretical, especially in lieu of this recession (which few economists, regardless of school, saw coming). For now, Keynesian seems to be winning the most support, at least by economists (to say nothing of the masses and politicians).

    Me, I think it depends on the country and the state of economy. Keynesian is our best bet for now but only if we're willing to really pinch things once we're back into boom times.
  5. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni

    Actually i mentioned the word "sustainable" for a reason. Its modern economics thats got us into this mess - financially and ecologically. What we need is a totally new model, not more of the same, but I dont see any of our leaders even talking about a new model, even proposing we think of alternatives, just more regulation. Nothing about our current model socially just, it creates inequity rather than supports it, and its a total ecological disaster on a grand scale. Im sick of economics. I want an holistic leader that looks at the full picture.
  6. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni SF Supporter

    I'm hoping everything collapses, people riot, and anarchy breaks out.
  7. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Ah, heh heh, you're so naive it's almost cute.

    If worse comes to worst economically, dictators come to power.

    I'm sure you already knew that, but... Doesn't hurt to restate it. Anything that can be done by a democracy must be done to avoid dictatorships.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2009
  8. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    And this kind of thinking is how Hitler got elected.
  9. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    The above brings up an interesting an age-old point:

    Would we rather have the 'chaos' of a democratic, free-market system, open and free as it is, or the stability and security of a system where there economic sustainability but political repression.

    Interestingly, the average American seems to be at a loss. We hate big (i.e. undemcoratic) government, yet we also hate taking accountability for our various social and economic problems. Typical example: we want better schools yet don't believe in big government involvement to provide for them (since we prefer schools to be relegated to local and state governments). Yet when the time comes for the community to cough up the tax money to put up or improve these schools, we revolt...much as we're doing now in these 'Tea Parties.'
  10. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni

    I dont really see the link between what I said and Hitler? Im not promoting a fascist government or a dictatorship. I want a democratic government based on ideas of sustainability going forward. Im arguing that our economic model is totally unsustainable on ecological and social grounds, wtf does that have to do with Hitler?
  11. shades

    shades Staff Alumni

    Zurk is right about the general principles of economics and MJ is right about the fact that it is probably not sustainable given the current global economic crisis. The greatest economic minds of our time don't seem to have the answer yet, but it will be something totally different than what anyone can conceptualize at this time.
  12. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    I tend to stay away from economic discussions. Partly because I'm rather well sheltered from them, but mostly because it's so ******* complex. Besides, even if we get out of this recession perfectly, another one is an eventuality. Somewhat like the rain, I just get out the metaphorical umbrella and weather the storm.
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