Last night in New Zealand

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by youRprecious!, Mar 13, 2013.

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  1. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    the Re-definition of Marriage bill passed its 2nd reading, and I think is having its 3rd reading today. This bill has been rushed through parliament at the rate of knots, and many people wishing to make an oral submission have not been permitted to speak. The Select Committee was biased in favour of the bill - not even a referendum was considered, and even the prospect of such was voted down big time. We no longer live in a democracy where the majority point of view has any influence.

    The points in favour of keeping the institution of marriage between men and women were glossed over as irrelevant, under the banner of "Human rights". This, apparently is the god now before which we all are required to swear allegiance, regardless of the underpinning realities.

    I feel there's hardly any point in trying to explain what these are. No one seems to want to know, preferring to believe differently on subjective rather than objective grounds.

    All I can say is however much the human mind disagrees with God, He never changes His mind about anything, and will continue to love people who believe they were born homosexual the same as he loves heterosexuals. That is one aspect of God's character, and there are more .........

    But to try to explain these in this context - why bother? I'd just be wasting my time and energy.

    Though just for the record - because today I feel so gutted I have to write my thoughts down and get them out there to whoever might read them - being "straight" and believing what God has to say on the matter - or even just being straight and believing that equality does not mean destroying the inherent differences between men and women and the identity gender needs of children - seems to be becoming the minority view, if we are to believe our politicians and the media.

    I simply refuse to believe the politicians and the media in this respect. Philosophically and spiritually they have been deceived big time.
  2. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    I can't believe this is still a topic of debate. Humanity has a very, very long way to go. End injustice and stop hate already.
  3. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Who said anything about hate?
  4. 1112222

    1112222 Well-Known Member

    Eh last time I checked it seems that the majority of new zealander's are in favor of it so to say that NZ is no longer a democracy because of this is abused beyond reason.
  5. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Any unjust act towards another for the purpose of unreasonable discrimination, is an extension of hate. I'm strongly in favor of anyone marrying whoever and whatever they want if it's consensual. The fact that people are still debating something simple such as the definitions of marriage is completely ludicrous to me.
  6. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    If this really was the case, then the proponents of the Bill would have nothing to fear by taking it to referendum. But it wasn't the case actually. Politicians and media did their very best to give this impression. However, if it had gone to Referendum and the result was in favour of passing the bill, then the majority would have had their fair say.
  7. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    I am all for justice too. God is a God of justice too - Justice in this instance would be to arrive at the truth by due process, considering all beliefs. The one person whose opinion was not consulted, and treated as irrelevant, was the Person who kicked everything off by making us male and female and giving us the boundaries to respect. There is no injustice in this, unless one wants to believe there is.

    What the politicians have done is in effect cocked a snoop at God and told him they can do better. It is not 'unreasonable discrimination' to say that marriage is between men and women - it is just stating a fact.
  8. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    What does God have to do with anything? It is completely unreasonable, and unjust, to legislate your personal beliefs onto others forcing them to conform, particularly when the subject of legislation is not to prevent or penalize a behavior that harms other people or property.

    The definition of marriage, in the context of human beings, is a socially and legally recognized bond between two or more persons. Attaching a gender to this definition - especially in an era where people are more open and are less secretly attracted to and having romantic relationships with others of their own gender - is discriminating against them by refusing to recognize their relationships as marriage. That's a fact, more of a truth. Learn to accept it and evolve. There was one time where pale-skinned Americans and brown-skinned Americans were prohibited from marriage, too, because brown-skinned people, particularly those of African descent, were not even considered to be full human beings but only three-fifths of a human being. You think that's right, too?

    How the heck a mortal, relatively ignorant (in comparison to any god) human being, so small and not even knowing himself, can come forward and actually say that he/she knows the will of something so omnipotent and omniscient and untouchable beyond human comprehension that they call it God, claiming to know its will is infinitely hypocritical. If you, an individual, believe in discriminating against others because they are different, then do that. Don't attempt to validate your prejudice by attaching the name God to it - because most likely people who hold hateful beliefs don't know anything about what any god, if real at all, wants.

    Have the integrity to say "I believe in ABC, because X, Y, and Z" and it should be a logical argument. God has nothing to do with it because your opinion is not God's. It's yours.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2013
  9. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    This seems more like a topic for the Soap Box to me but I suppose it can receive more attention here.
  10. 1112222

    1112222 Well-Known Member

    Mabye but since New Zealand is still in the middle of a rescission I would rather not have several million dollars worth of taxes payers money be wasted on a pointless referendum that would only just state the bloody obvious.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2013
  11. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    But a referendum for asset sales is OK - when its obvious how the country feels about that? The Greens and Labour are so determined to have a Referendum on state asset sales, but won’t allow one on the state’s greatest asset of marriage. This is called hypocrisy. It's actually NOT "bloody obvious" that the country is wildly in favour of gender-neutral marriage - but the political machine was not prepared to take the chance.
  12. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    The results of passing this bill are likely to affect the whole of the country's social structure by way of confusing our children, who will grow up believing that for millenia the human race had got it completely wrong that marriage is a contract between men and women.

    What does God have to do with anything? Quite a lot - considering we're all living on his planet and have received His revelation about life, meaning and relationships - but of course, that being my own personal opinion and nothing at all to do with objectivity or absolute truth (in your opinion), the boundaries which have undergirded all societies since humanity began can now be done away with because mankind has decided (... or is it assumed?) that everything is only relative.

    Parents needing to tell their children that men can now marry men and women can marry women - is actually causing a lot of harm to many.
  13. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Your definition of marriage is false. Marriage is a contract between a man and a woman, it always has been and always will be - and, oh - I've just read, two or more??? persons! I don't think so :)

    Truth is eternal. Just the passage of time cannot alter objective truths. Humanity is deceived if it thinks objective truth can be made into relative truth just because people feel it should be.

    You have no authority to tell me to learn to accept your views - that is imposing your views upon me which is unjust (to use a familiar argument)

    No, I certainly do not believe your last question is right, absolutely not. That's racism. The colour of our skin is a far different consideration than our gender.
  14. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Knowing God's will is actually not that difficult for anyone to find out, when they seek it sincerely, because He has written it down plainly for all to read if they want. He certainly isn't beyond human comprehension, but readily accessible if one has the desire to know him.
    I am not discriminating against other people, as the proponents of the bill assume about its antagonists. People are made equal, but that does not mean that all behaviours are equal - which is what this bill glosses over and tries to distort.
    I am truly sorry that you think I hold hateful beliefs because the beliefs I hold to are there to protect society and promote life and wellbeing by bringing us all into closer communion with our Maker. Understanding of course, that many won't want this, doesn't mean the offer isn't there or has not been made.

    May I ask, how you know what God's opinion is?

    OK. I believe that Marriage, as it has traditionally existed since the beginning of time in all societies, is an institution conceived for the wellbeing of humanity by our Maker - who made Adam for Eve and not for Steve. There, that is my opinion and I think you'll find it pretty much parallels God's - if you'd care to look it up I can provide you with the references where you'll be able to find it :)
  15. Terry

    Terry Antiquities Friend Staff Alumni

    Agree so have moved it
  16. 1112222

    1112222 Well-Known Member

    Right so your saying that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because it might confuse children.

    Fucking hell that is easily the most lamest and pathetic argument I've hear against gay marriage yet.
    Children are smarter and better at adapting to situations than we give the credit for so I really doubt this going to effect them. And even if they do get confused by it surely it is something that can be easily solved by the parent sitting down and explaining it to them.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with God whatsoever. Its about civil rights, Its about giving a minority the same rights that everyone else has.
  17. Theodora

    Theodora Well-Known Member

    1112222, I don't consider you a minority and I'd be very happy to attend your wedding to your boyfriend. Though not if you follow through your avatar if you wish to make it permanent with your Mom.
  18. NYJmpMaster

    NYJmpMaster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    Aside from any other factors - referendums do not automatically mean justice or fairness. If a lot of people are prejudice in an area it does not make them "right" - it simply means a lot of people are prejudice. It was once said different religions could not marry - many religions do not recognize marriage if it is not done in the manner they happen to prescribe. It was said until very recent history in many parts of the world and still widely believed that inter-racial marriage was sinful -- and hundreds of quotes from religious texts were given as evidence of this.
    I will not bother with my opinion on 90% of organized religion and the fact that in practice is proven time and time again to be far more about hate then love - about dividing people as opposed to bringing them together- but anytime that a person or group of people get the sincere belief that there judgement in how to define relationships or people and how the children and cultures of other people are somehow 'wrong' is is the very definition of discrimination and prejudice.
    By extension I could simply say mentally ill are a minority and physically handicap are a minority so it should go to referendum to determine if any money should be spent to provide accommodation. That if it is a racial minority people would be correct in voting to determine if they should have equal rights and protections. The entire issue of a 'referendum' is misguided at best regardless of results.
    Every person has the right to make their own choices of lifestyle and beliefs. If those choices are not shared by you then do not engage in that lifestyle. That does not mean they are wrong - you had the right to choose to believe in something and pursue a certain lifestyle and value system - why should they not have the same right? The fact is your value system is in the minority by a substantial amount on a worldwide basis. I do not think you would be so excited about a "vote" on belief systems if it were a world wide vote and you suddenly found your belief system to be outlawed because it was in the minority...
  19. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Actually NY - actually this happens in the world today where the church has to operate "underground" - and flourishes there. It is not just people of faith who believe that marriage is between men and women - but the problem amongst the majority of the population seems to be a mixture of apathy and not wanting to be thought of as "narrow-minded" or "behind the times", or not keeping pace with assumed popular opinion.

    However much parents sit down and explain this new move to their children, the children will have no choice but to believe that the adult world is confused and - as we can all choose to believe what we will (and just believing it makes it true), that there are no ultimate values to aspire to. And that it's of no consequence that one's gender identiy is there for many reasons and that throughout history these gender differences have come together in the special way that Marriage provides.

    I was brought up with no father figure around and know without any doubt whatsoever that this affected my identity (from which other issues ensued that plunged me over the edge). You can be under no illusions on this site that many write in wondering why they were born, what life is all about, hating themselves and the world and any psychologist will tell you that one's self-image plays a large part in this. Investigating the parental home and circumstances is the next step - and being raised with the charge from 2 annodes or 2 diodes (to use electrical terminology as an analogy) instead of one of each is not going to help anyone unravel their tangled hard-wiring.

    I totally disagree that in a democracy the entire issue of a public referendum is misguided on this matter. The truth is the proponents of the bill were too scared to let the nation decide and so we have been dictated to by people who are meant to serve the interests of the nation as a whole as its elected representatives, trying to play God and tell us what our thinking should be, all based on untrue and faulty assumptions and conclusions.
  20. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    Thank you Terry - I wasn't sure where to post it to start with
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