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Male Suicide

Dark111

Scholar's Mate
SF Supporter
#41
Both of my sons come over. They live with their father ages 21 and 25. His house is bigger. Anyway, I think he tries to he funny or snarky and misses the mark. Or maybe hes still mad at me. I've lived my life unconventionalally but still have always been right beside him. He's always been an angry bird (sorry corny). I think he may also be a late bloomer. Thanks for caring, I know this isnt about me but we were talking about male suicide. He actually gets annoyed when I try to talk about anything personal. I guess I just have to keep trying!

Your story about your father helps. Is your father still alive? I think if I suggested counseling he'd balk. The good news is, and talking with you here just reminded me, he did say the last time we were together that he wishes that he took more classes he enjoyed in high school. But it's kinda sad to have regrets already at 25. If you as a son/daughter now or in the future think of a way that I can reach out to him please let me know. However, I dont think hes at risk for suicide but the thought has crossed my mind and I've expressed it to my younger daughter only because of now he isolates himself and his disposition. He's neutral others I believe.
My father is still alive and although not nearly as fiery as it once was, our relationship is still not particularly close. People have said we're too alike and that's why we clash. I had countless reasons to be mad at my father but why do you think your son is mad at you?

It sounds like you were quite touched by him telling you about his regret at not taking more interesting classes at school. There's a real humanity in just telling someone a personal thing like that. What was happening when he opened up like that? Had you just spent a bit of quality time together?
 

extraterrestrialone

hi, guess who... its me...
SF Supporter
#42
@Dark111 & @Lane and other people who i can’t think of at the moment, i am presently overwhelmed with the major thing i’m dealing with these past several weeks. not that that is a bad thing because things are actually processing positively, but i find i have not been able to pay attention to many other things such as responding to posts like this one. Dark, you actually have something like 3 threads I want to converse in. i hope to be able to attend to them all soon. but right now at the moment since i kept this page open since yesterday...
Maybe a message from suicide survivors would get people's attention.
i think this could be helpful Lane but i sort of believe - mentioned it above or somewhere else, the not “mentally ill” people struggle to maintain higher status because they do not want to show that they to have ever encountered discombobulance. but everyone does. and i think the key is to popularize the idea that mental difficulties are a thing everyone goes through. that will break down barriers. it has to become a situation where no one will be able to try and step back and pretend its not them too. we all have brains and no one’s brain is superior and thusly not subject to human difficulties. it is when someone has a problem and gets categorized by the supposedly sane that greater difficulties happen. of course that are likely problems that a person is born with that may create proclivities or whatever that may complicate things but i still think that is secondary in most cases. the big problem is the unaccepting that the other people do that creates the stigma and issues and that is what needs to be changed by exposing and accepting the similarities that everyone has. (there are also practices that are done by the mental healthcare industry that are dangerous such as handing out diagnoses that do not actually help if they reinforce stigma and categorization.
 
#43
Listening to a TED talk from 2018 given by Steph Slack on male suicide in the United Kingdom, she opens by stating that "by the end of this debate three men in the UK will have died by suicide."

Voice to text translation excerpt:

"I can still remember where I was when my dad called me to tell me that they found my uncle. He had taken his life and it had taken 3 weeks to find his body. Richard was 47. He was a doctor. Super smart, creative, artistic, he spoke new languages with ease, he played and wrote music and he understood science ands Math no one else I knew. He's the kind of kid you'd hate at school, right? He saved peoples lives for a living and yet, he decided to take his own. I'd like to take you back to 2010. I was at my new flat in Brighton having dinner with a friend, about to start my third year of university, when my dad calls me to that they found my uncle. That feeling, that sinking feeling, in your stomach, when your heart drops all the way down and all can think is: What could you have done to stop that from happening. That's a feeling I wish no one ever has to experience.

Men are facing a crisis. How many men do you think die by suicide each day in the UK? it's 12. That's 1 man every two hours. While we're all enjoying our day, we're gonna lose 12 men to suicide that same day.

In my work we talk a lot about the fact that 76% of all suicides are male. And that this silent killer is claiming the lives of more men under 45 than anything else. And I can't help but find myself asking: Why is that? Doesn't that trouble you, because it's troubles me? These are our brothers, fathers, uncles, partners, sons. These are our friends and they decide to die.

I think there are some hard questions we need to ask about male suicide. I don't believe there is anything wrong with men having suicidal thoughts. But is there something wrong with how we react to suicide being thought about. Let me explain.

We all die at one point or another, right? Our bodies will fail us and we'll die of disease or old age. Or we'll have our lives taken from us in a tragic accident. So isn't it perfectly normal to consider being in control of our own death? Yes, suicide is intentional but does that automatically make it wrong?

I believe suicide is preventable and I believe we should do everything in our power to prevent it. But I also believe there's nothing inherently wrong in thinking about our own death. I've considered what it's like to die.

<<She asks the audience to close their eyes and raise their hands if they've had a bad day, or week or month, has ever led you to harming yourself or taking your own life. When she tells them to put down their hands and then open their eyes, she tells them about half of the room raised their hand to this question. She then invites them to consider what might be different if we didn't see having suicidal thoughts as wrong, and what that might mean for the men in our lives thinking of suicide.>>

Let's go back to my uncle Richard. For most of his life, he experienced what was most likely bipolar disorder, and he had suicidal thoughts on more than one occasion. In fact, 6 years before his death he attempted to take his life. The sad fact was that Richard lived in a time when suicide was not considered something you spoke about. It was swept under the carpet as a cause for shame amongst families, there was something wrong with it. It was only in 1961 that we stopped making suicide a crime.

Richard's parents were medics, and anesthetist and a nurse, and they didn't understand suicide either. They didn't think that it was real. And I think they were probably in denial about what was happening with Richard. What happened to Richard isn't my grandparents fault. Suicide is complex and rarely attributed to just one factor. But when I reflect on Richard's experience, and how we still struggle to speak about suicide today, nothing's really changed. We still struggle to talk about it. We label it as abnormal or unusual. And we make men wrong for having suicidal thoughts. We say that they're unwell or that they need to get better. And because we think about it this way, it stops us from having a real conversation about it. We stay silent instead. And Suicide remains shrouded in this stigma. That stigma is only perpetuated by irresponsible and sensational journalism that happens in the cases of celebrity suicides. Just look at some of reporting at the time of Anthony Bourdain's death. When I was thinking how best to explain this point, it made me think of sex and sex education. It's really uncomfortable for us to talk to kids about sex, it's so tempting to think "if we don't talk about it, it won't happen. Our kids won't have sex". But we know that teenage pregnancy and STDs are the risks if we don't have that conversation. And we take those risks seriously. We introduce sex education into schools and it's now compulsory across the UK. It's far from perfect, but what it has been shown to do improve positive attitudes to safe sex, to delay sex, and to reduce teenage pregnancy when used alongside other methods.

With suicide, we know it's a myth that talking about it will plant that idea inside someone's head. And if suicide is claiming the lives of more men 45 than anything else, it's time we start accepting that suicidal thoughts are something that just happen, and start talking openly and responsibly about it. I don't think there is anything wrong with men having suicidal thoughts. But perhaps there is something wrong with our expectations of men in society that lead them to have those thoughts. Let's think about that.

What does it mean to be masculine? What does it mean to be a man? Society tells us men should be strong, dependable and able to provide for their family. There is very little research into why men choose suicide. But the recent research that does exist speaks about how men's high suicide rates are linked to risk factors: history of being abused a child, single status or relationship breakdown, financial difficulty & unemployment. So that means if you're a man who's had a troubled childhood, you're still searching for the one or you're worried about money, you're at risk of suicide. How many of us know men in that situation? Plenty, and my uncle Richard was one of them. In fact, I've probably just described half of all millenial men in the UK. Unsurprisingly, these risk factors are linked to those traditional notions of masculinity. It seems so that men can't meet what is expected of them, they make themselves wrong for that. The research backs this up too. Just last year there was a paper confirming that there is a link between men feeling unable to fulfill the stereotypical characteristics of masculinity and suicidal thoughts.

Many people don't agree with those masculine stereotypes but there also a lot who do. That conversation, however, is starting to change.

But is it just men who are perpetuating these outdated stereotypes of what it means to be a man and making themselves wrong for that? I don't think so. I'd like us to consider what our role is as women. Just last month I was chatting to a female friend of mine who described the guy she was dating as a "sponge" and "too sensitive" because he opened up to her about some of the anxieties he was facing in the relationship and how that was making him feel vulnerable. I cannot begin to describe the look on some women's faces when I speak about how men I know have broken down in tears in front of me. It's somewhere between discomfort and disdain.

Men are already making themselves wrong for not living up these masculine ideals of being strong, dependable, and being able to provide for their family. They're already shaming themselves for that. Are women compounding the problem by making men wrong and shaming them for demonstrating those open and vulnerable behaviours that women say they want men to show them? Are we making men wrong for breaking out of these rigid stereotypes and for just being fully human? To the women in the room I'm not saying male suicide is our responsibility. I absolutely acknowledge that men have a role to play in breaking down these stereotypes. But as a woman I can only speak to my experience and how I do see our role. What I'm inviting all of us to do, regardless of our gender, is to reconsider the expectations that we have of men in society, and reconsider how we view men who have the courage to show us their vulnerability. I'm inviting us to ask the men in our lives how they're really doing and if they're struggling with anything they haven't told us about. And can we think about how we respond to that. How we might try to empathize with their pain. Can we hold space for men and listen to them without trying to fix things, tell them that we love them and that it's ok to feel however they're feeling.

The full presentation is available at:
I am English ,male and 44 so I am one of those men mentioned.
I just wanted to say thank you for caring.
 
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Lane

SF Supporter
#46
@Dark111 & @Lane and other people who i can’t think of at the moment, i am presently overwhelmed with the major thing i’m dealing with these past several weeks. not that that is a bad thing because things are actually processing positively, but i find i have not been able to pay attention to many other things such as responding to posts like this one. Dark, you actually have something like 3 threads I want to converse in. i hope to be able to attend to them all soon. but right now at the moment since i kept this page open since yesterday...

i think this could be helpful Lane but i sort of believe - mentioned it above or somewhere else, the not “mentally ill” people struggle to maintain higher status because they do not want to show that they to have ever encountered discombobulance. but everyone does. and i think the key is to popularize the idea that mental difficulties are a thing everyone goes through. that will break down barriers. it has to become a situation where no one will be able to try and step back and pretend its not them too. we all have brains and no one’s brain is superior and thusly not subject to human difficulties. it is when someone has a problem and gets categorized by the supposedly sane that greater difficulties happen. of course that are likely problems that a person is born with that may create proclivities or whatever that may complicate things but i still think that is secondary in most cases. the big problem is the unaccepting that the other people do that creates the stigma and issues and that is what needs to be changed by exposing and accepting the similarities that everyone has. (there are also practices that are done by the mental healthcare industry that are dangerous such as handing out diagnoses that do not actually help if they reinforce stigma and categorization.
You said it right there D @extraterrestrialone. Everyone does go through mental issues/stuff (sorry not as eloquent as some, ha) and it's probably as common as a bone fracture. The irony is we are suffering so it's only in times of feeling strong that we can come up with a plan to stick to and help others become aware and erase the stigma, or like @Dark111 thread originally points out, that our men who are reluctant to talk about feelings are at even higher risk (possibly).

As an aside, D you have a son too and I really think its how they're raised and the culture that they live in that determines how willing they are to say, "hey, somethings not right with me, I need help" (I'm just talking off off the top if my head)
 

Lane

SF Supporter
#47
My father is still alive and although not nearly as fiery as it once was, our relationship is still not particularly close. People have said we're too alike and that's why we clash. I had countless reasons to be mad at my father but why do you think your son is mad at you?

It sounds like you were quite touched by him telling you about his regret at not taking more interesting classes at school. There's a real humanity in just telling someone a personal thing like that. What was happening when he opened up like that? Had you just spent a bit of quality time together?
I'm not sure if the questions are meant to be answered here or just mulled over in my head. But I know my son trusts me. I also after much though about why hes brrn angry even as a young boy, has to be because his father wasnt involved in his activities as much as me where a father figure needed to be present, like wrestling and boy scouts. Also, I left and there's anger there but shared custody, there's more that I cant write here for judgement reasons. But I always took care of him. Now, his attitude has to be with himself. Anyway, I'm glad that things have calmed with your father. As they say you only get one and you cant choose. I hope that he loves you. I know from my own experience the joy of seeing your baby and a parents overwhelming unconditional love. Then that child grows a personality! 😂😫
 

Dark111

Scholar's Mate
SF Supporter
#48
You said it right there D @extraterrestrialone. Everyone does go through mental issues/stuff (sorry not as eloquent as some, ha) and it's probably as common as a bone fracture. The irony is we are suffering so it's only in times of feeling strong that we can come up with a plan to stick to and help others become aware and erase the stigma, or like @Dark111 thread originally points out, that our men who are reluctant to talk about feelings are at even higher risk (possibly).

As an aside, D you have a son too and I really think its how they're raised and the culture that they live in that determines how willing they are to say, "hey, somethings not right with me, I need help" (I'm just talking off off the top if my head)
Agreed Lane, we're all programmed a certain way and kids learn very early on what sort of behaviour is frowned upon, or at least not encouraged. Adults often take certain things for granted too, I know I do. I sometimes have to remind myself to have the patience to carefully explain what might be going on in a situation. Children make a lot of assumptions and they tend to self-blame if they don't understand what's going on.
 

extraterrestrialone

hi, guess who... its me...
SF Supporter
#49
Dark111 thread originally points out, that our men who are reluctant to talk about feelings are at even higher risk (possibly).
yes! i myself also am absolutely reluctant to talk about my issues... lately i find myself wishing it would just be drawn out of me by someone anyone! i’ve heard so many conversations about men who will just not say what is making them so apparently shut inside themselves. i’ll say right now that what is inside is not automatically and or necessarily bad or even its not bad at all, but is perceived that way - and that if let out, it is stigmatizing and it still seems as if the world is desperately trying to keep it that way and not improve. so no wonder men find themselves being pushed over the edge. for myself, i am trying things in my life and now more so, but self harm was one of those things for a huge part of my life. it was a psychiatrist i saw once a few years back who said that self harm is like little suicides. i can see that as being correct yet begining recently i’ve been seeing self harm as actually being self help! that is in accord with the opinion i’ve often heard that suicide is not an effort to die but an effort to stop the pain. so my self harm has been an effort to release the “secrets” within me.
D you have a son too and I really think its how they're raised and the culture that they live in that determines how willing they are to say, "hey, somethings not right with me, I need help"
so with me being how i am, i do always worry that what i am has been transmitted to my kids (2 sons btw) genetically. so i do ask them now and then. so far they have not revealed that they are deeply troubled by anything but then here you go again, men being secretive, how can i really know if the are ok or hiding a deep problem?

i hope that i have made it clear that although i do believe both male and female suicide be addressed together that i’m sure the problems are unique to each as well as having similarities but also addressing male suicide is a very good course of action to be taking!
 

Lane

SF Supporter
#50
Agreed Lane, we're all programmed a certain way and kids learn very early on what sort of behaviour is frowned upon, or at least not encouraged. Adults often take certain things for granted too, I know I do. I sometimes have to remind myself to have the patience to carefully explain what might be going on in a situation. Children make a lot of assumptions and they tend to self-blame if they don't understand what's going on.
The thought of a young child blaming him or herself hurts me. I think about children blaming themselves for divorces or as victims of sexual abuse (sorry trigger).

You are disciplined to remind yourself to act or speak a certain way. Trust me @Dark111 when parenting I have said regretful things but I've apologized. If you ever have children those qualities would serve you well. But still, ugh it's a chore!
 

Lane

SF Supporter
#51
yes! i myself also am absolutely reluctant to talk about my issues... lately i find myself wishing it would just be drawn out of me by someone anyone! i’ve heard so many conversations about men who will just not say what is making them so apparently shut inside themselves. i’ll say right now that what is inside is not automatically and or necessarily bad or even its not bad at all, but is perceived that way - and that if let out, it is stigmatizing and it still seems as if the world is desperately trying to keep it that way and not improve. so no wonder men find themselves being pushed over the edge. for myself, i am trying things in my life and now more so, but self harm was one of those things for a huge part of my life. it was a psychiatrist i saw once a few years back who said that self harm is like little suicides. i can see that as being correct yet begining recently i’ve been seeing self harm as actually being self help! that is in accord with the opinion i’ve often heard that suicide is not an effort to die but an effort to stop the pain. so my self harm has been an effort to release the “secrets” within me.
so with me being how i am, i do always worry that what i am has been transmitted to my kids (2 sons btw) genetically. so i do ask them now and then. so far they have not revealed that they are deeply troubled by anything but then here you go again, men being secretive, how can i really know if the are ok or hiding a deep problem?

i hope that i have made it clear that although i do believe both male and female suicide be addressed together that i’m sure the problems are unique to each as well as having similarities but also addressing male suicide is a very good course of action to be taking!
Good morning D. Skimmed this. Want to come back and answer more. I worry too that about passing on a 'bad gene". My biological mother passed it on to me before I was put into the foster care system. Out of 4 children, the odds of 1 getting it are good 😟😏😂. Is the pandemic coming to a close soon? We need a meet-up and sushi.
 
#52
I’m reminded of a bit, or a bit of a bit... in other words, a small part of something larger of which I can’t recall the topic/subject, or theme - but it was by George Carlin many years ago. And he goes, something to the effect of, “...Speaking of equality, if it’s “equal-rights,” that women are after; this is one area (suicide) where they’ve got a lot of (or was it “some?”) catching up to do! ; )
Not trying to add to much levity to the thread. Though that does tend to be my tendency; when taken in conjunction with the fact that, for my own mental health & well-being it is not best advised to tread in some territories or certain waters that I can get stuck in... I do feel it is a very noteworthy thread: worthy of examination. Though as for why I don’t offer any easy answers, it’s simply because I have none- I know that of those few I’ve known personally (not on here), I’d say it’s pretty 50:50 in terms of male to female, when it comes to want & desire (to!). But as for completion percentage. . . Well- that is another matter, and quite honestly, a small sample size . I guess it’s just always been this way for me since an early age - teens. I grew up in a small town and during high school, three students (all male, of course), did what we’re discussing here. And this was right smack in the middle of the Nirvana thing. I believe they were all 16-17, at the time too... so! In a sense ~~ strange as it sounds or seems - it’s just always been (kind of) normal; or natural. In spite of the fact I’d say the only ones I’ve met in real life who were anywhere in the stratosphere as me in terms of their suicidal ideation were female. So, go figure?
 

Dark111

Scholar's Mate
SF Supporter
#53
From my own reading of the literature, it seems men persistently have a significantly higher suicide rate than women. Three key areas that have been identified in which men differ from the women are:

~ Men used more violent, immediately lethal methods of suicide,
~ Men are almost three times more likely to be substance abusers,
~ Men are more likely to have economic problems as stressors.

Major depression forms the background of upwards of half of all suicides and it's acknowledged that women are twice as likely as men to experience major depression, yet women are one fourth as likely as men to take their own lives. The research suggests that while men value independence and decisiveness, and regard acknowledging a need for help as weakness and avoid it, women value interdependence, and they consult friends and readily accept help. Women consider decisions in a relationship context, taking many things into consideration, and they feel freer to change their minds. Hence, factors that protect women from suicide are actually vulnerability factors in men.

From The Guardian a few years back:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/21/suicide-gender-men-women-mental-health-nick-clegg

"Research suggests that women are especially prone to psychological problems such as depression, which almost always precede suicide. In western societies, overall rates of mental health disorders tend to be around 20-40% higher for women than for men.

Given the unequal burden of distress implied by these figures, it is hardly surprising that women are more likely to experience suicidal thoughts. The Adult Psychiatric Morbidity in England 2007 survey found that 19% of women had considered taking their own life. For men the figure was 14%. And women aren’t simply more likely to think about suicide – they are also more likely to act on the idea. The survey found that 7% of women and 4% of men had attempted suicide at some point in their lives.

But of the 5,981 deaths by suicide in the UK in 2012, more than three quarters (4,590) were males. In the US, of the 38,000 people who took their own lives in 2010, 79% were men."

This article, along with many others, emphasizes method of choice as a key reason for seeing the difference we do. Women who attempt suicide tend to use nonviolent means, whereas men are more likely to use violent and so more lethal means.

It is also noted that while the difference in suicide rate between men and women is complexly determined, the weight of the evidence also suggests that more men than women intend to commit suicide.

An recent publication on the Australian Men's Health Forum titled "Call for focus on gender differences as suicide rates jump 10%" states: "Suicide now kills more than 8 Australians a day, taking the lives of more than 6 men and 2 women a day on average, but most of the resources targeted at suicide prevention ignore significant differences between male suicide and female suicide, according to AMHF. Most suicide prevention programs favour "gender neutral" approaches which may appear egalitarian, but tend to be more effective at helping women than helping men, who account for 3 out of 4 suicides"

I think there's certainly room for more investigation into this trend but this is what the research has found thus far.
 
#54
Wow! There’s a lot in there that I did not know... some of it I did—but probably a lot more that I did not. So, thank you for sharing your findings. And of course we understand that they’re not comprehensive and conclusive. As little (to be found) is! : )
 

Dark111

Scholar's Mate
SF Supporter
#55
Wow! There’s a lot in there that I did not know... some of it I did—but probably a lot more that I did not. So, thank you for sharing your findings. And of course we understand that they’re not comprehensive and conclusive. As little (to be found) is! : )
Yes, there's more work to be done here, and I intend to follow up, but I think the findings so far shed a lot of light on why we are seeing what we are.
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#56
This article, along with many others, emphasizes method of choice as a key reason for seeing the difference we do. Women who attempt suicide tend to use nonviolent means, whereas men are more likely to use violent and so more lethal means.

It is also noted that while the difference in suicide rate between men and women is complexly determined, the weight of the evidence also suggests that more men than women intend to commit suicide.
If anyone cares enough to ask for it I'll find and cite the study for you, but right now that feels like a pain in the ass.

Point is, it found that men and women successfully committed suicide by overdose in the same numbers.

Warning, wild speculation ahead:

Now, this makes no sense if women are attempting suicide four times as often as men. If women are more likely to choose that method than men and are four times more likely to attempt, then the number of successful suicides by overdose should be over four times higher for women than for men. And yet the numbers were nearly exactly the same, with a single digit number of men more than women dying by that method.

I see a few possible explanations for this discrepancy.

First possibility: the stereotype of women "not really meaning it" is true. Their attempts are less serious no matter what method they choose.

I do not believe this to be the case.

Second possibility: women are as serious as men but, percentage-wise, are so much less likely to succeed because they are simply less competent at it.

I also don't think this is it.

Third possibility (spoiler: this is the one I think is the case): men and women are attempting in roughly equal numbers, but men's unsuccessful attempts are going unreported, so it only appears that women are attempting more often.

Reasoning behind my thinking there is simple; we already know from study after study that women are more likely to engage in help-seeking behavior, especially when in emotional distress. Admitting to an attempted suicide would certainly count as that.

If we accept (just for the sake of argument, nothing here is proven) that men's attempt numbers are similar to women's, all of a sudden the whole "men use more violent means" reasoning starts to actually account for men's higher success numbers.

Think about it, if women are really attempting 4x as often, while men succeed 4x as often, that means that the difference in successes per attempt would be so laughably high as to make that simple explanation entirely unsatisfying. If however one assumes a large number of unreported attempts...

Anyway, just my speculation.
 

Dark111

Scholar's Mate
SF Supporter
#57
If anyone cares enough to ask for it I'll find and cite the study for you, but right now that feels like a pain in the ass.

Point is, it found that men and women successfully committed suicide by overdose in the same numbers.

Warning, wild speculation ahead:

Now, this makes no sense if women are attempting suicide four times as often as men. If women are more likely to choose that method than men and are four times more likely to attempt, then the number of successful suicides by overdose should be over four times higher for women than for men. And yet the numbers were nearly exactly the same, with a single digit number of men more than women dying by that method.

I see a few possible explanations for this discrepancy.

First possibility: the stereotype of women "not really meaning it" is true. Their attempts are less serious no matter what method they choose.

I do not believe this to be the case.

Second possibility: women are as serious as men but, percentage-wise, are so much less likely to succeed because they are simply less competent at it.

I also don't think this is it.

Third possibility (spoiler: this is the one I think is the case): men and women are attempting in roughly equal numbers, but men's unsuccessful attempts are going unreported, so it only appears that women are attempting more often.

Reasoning behind my thinking there is simple; we already know from study after study that women are more likely to engage in help-seeking behavior, especially when in emotional distress. Admitting to an attempted suicide would certainly count as that.

If we accept (just for the sake of argument, nothing here is proven) that men's attempt numbers are similar to women's, all of a sudden the whole "men use more violent means" reasoning starts to actually account for men's higher success numbers.

Think about it, if women are really attempting 4x as often, while men succeed 4x as often, that means that the difference in successes per attempt would be so laughably high as to make that simple explanation entirely unsatisfying. If however one assumes a large number of unreported attempts...

Anyway, just my speculation.
Method has been cited repeatedly for a higher completion rate in men. I know other factors were cited but certainly method was a key reason for the difference we see. Are you saying the statistics of completed suicides are incorrect? Who would have a motive to skew it that way?
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#58
Method has been cited repeatedly for a higher completion rate in men. I know other factors were cited but certainly method was a key reason for the difference we see. Are you saying the statistics of completed suicides are incorrect? Who would have a motive to skew it that way?
I'm saying the statistics of completed suicides likely are correct, but that the statistics of uncompleted attempts are likely incorrect.

The motive to skew those numbers is in the pressure on men to not demonstrate weakness, which I hypothesize expresses itself as a much lower likelihood of reporting their unsuccessful attempts.
 
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