Migration, is it a good thing?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Kaos General, Jul 3, 2010.

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Is migration a good thing?

  1. Yes

    17 vote(s)
    65.4%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. Not Sure

    5 vote(s)
    19.2%
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  1. Kaos General

    Kaos General Well-Known Member

    Sadly no its not.

    Fact is there is very little work in the UK at the minute. Its especially harder when most of the jobs that are out their get filled by eastern europeans who arent subject to the minimum wage like the rest of us.

    This raises some very interesting questions in my mind, especially in the electrical and construction industry where its affected the most. To become an electrician in the UK aint an easy feat. First you need the 2330 level 2 and 3, then you need 2382 17th edition, then the 2356 nvq level 3, then the 2391 and 2392 inspection and testing. Then you need a ECS card and a CSCS card to prove your competent and safe.

    Now then compare that to what someone who comes over here to work claiming to be an electrician. A simple 6 month course, thats it. Whereas it takes us 4 years to get everything we need.

    You see i dont subscribe to the notion that people keep spewing out which is they do all the jobs that people here dont wanna do. What a load of old cobblers. People who say that need to go take a long hard look in their local jobcentre occasionally. When we are constantly undercut because foriegn workers get paid less wheres the fairness to the people who actually live here?

    And another thing the governmennt either need to put up or shut up in my opinion because they have blatantly lied. Massive example, anyone remember the british jobs for british workers for the olympic park in stratford? Yeah, i live 10 miles away from it, 85% of the people working their are polish and romanian.

    So i ask you, is this sort of migration a good thing?
     
  2. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Bad for you, sure.

    Good for the migrant, definitely.

    Probably good for your country on the whole.

    Probably good for his country on the whole.

    Such is capitalism.
     
  3. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    The problem now is the effects of recession.

    Wind back 3 or 4 years ago and there were shortages of builders, electrician's and plumber's.

    Unemployement levels of natives was falling not rising as a million poles walked in, which statistically suggested they were NOT taking our jobs, although some markets had new competition. Other industrys such as tourism and in some area's taxi services and the likes were saved by immigrants filling the gaps.

    The last perhaps 24 months have seen too many new jobs go to immigrants when natives unemployment levels are rising.

    Immigration is a good thing and important to wealth and success of a country, but it has to fit in with the economy, supply and demand, some UK markets are now out of sync.
     
  4. TrentGrad

    TrentGrad Well-Known Member

    Hmmm...I don't know about that.

    If nationals cannot find work because migrants can be hired at less than minimum wage standards in Britain, I think the impact on the country could be disasterous!

    It increases the bitterness that Nationals feel towards migrants...and probably indirectly on minorities as well. Those tensions become potentially explosive in the frame of social coheasion, and often leads to the rise of extremist parties and views on the political front.

    Also, if the migrants cannot find work, it thrusts them onto public welfare systems, straining public finances. This, combined with the fact that these people are not paying taxes also leads to a diminished fiscal system for the country.

    For the migrants country, it could lead to the loss of young people...straining their fiscal system as there's fewer young people to pay the domestic taxes needed to support an aging populace!

    I guess it is capitalism at work...though I suspect it's more of a failure of the EU system.
     
  5. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    Legal Immigrants cannot work for less than mininum wage. What they do is work for less than what Brits are willing to work for.

    The average wage of british brick layer for example is probably around £19,000-£25,000

    Now if you worked at mininum wage you would earn what, about £11-12,000. Massive savings. But even if a foreigner came in and did that job at £15-16k that is still big savings for many companies.

    The average wage in Poland is just over £6000 a year so they are flooding here to make a bit of money for their families back in Krakow. It's a flaw with the EU, we need to control the immigration and the job sectors but by EU law we cant. All the government are doing is saying we'll stop Asians and Africans coming here in their numbers.

    But if you think that is bad just remember how much the Poles cost us in 1939, lol.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2010
  6. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    What it is not is a failure of the EU but rather an intended effect. A common market MUST reach equilibrium somehow; Poles working in the UK is much better for the UK than the jobs relocating to Poland.
     
  7. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Ill definatly agree that theres an intended effect, the western EU block want to have a supply of cheap labour they can bring in at any time with minimal hassal so as to maintain the minimal growth the already have compared to the up and coming "third world".

    But yes, regardless of what might be said, the government is trying to subvert native workers.
     
  8. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    But that was all done and based around a boom, the exact same as the eurozone. It helped kick on even more power and wealth, the same as the eurozone. When we were booming 70% of new jobs went to immigrants so we were growing at a fast rate.

    A long came the recession and now EU open immigration is a hinderance and those a member of the eurozone are on a dangerous thin line.

    Poland. Bulgaria, Romania they receive billions in funding from the British and German tax payer and we expect to control the markets and economys. Recession has completely changed the position and stance we need to take.

    We need EU immigration to be based on unemployment figures and job sector shortages. Now is not the time to be open. Now is the time for the government and businesses to be responsible to the local community and not their own wealth. Businesses wont though, they need funding or tax cuts to encourage them to take on british workers.
     
  9. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    You need to take the good with the bad when you sign a series of treaties to form an economic community, you can't argue that you signed them when it was good as an excuse to not fulfill your promises now. Massive recessions do hurt but you can't be protectionist if you agree not to be. I suspect the immigration is still productive for the country as a whole, just not those now competing with the immigrants.
     
  10. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    Of course but the EU is more than a treaty. I'm not saying to work against the EU but rather to update our stance and requirements in relation to modern day.

    We signed not knowing the bad. It isn't wrong to make changes, it is wrong to think nothing is broken. David Cameron as part of his campaign has said any new eastern nations of the EU will not be have the same immigration freedoms to the current nations. You certainly wont ever see Angela Merkel agreeing to any weak nation joining the euro. The entire process of Euro acceptance will change. If the euro was to expand in the next 5 years it would be for no nation other than the UK.

    What will happen is we will sit tight because fact is Poles are leaving in massive numbers, they cant get work here either. 70% of Labours created jobs went to immigrants, the conservatives will not be creating jobs in the same manor, speed or sector so immigration will fall fall and fall with or without a cap.
     
  11. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Of course it's a good thing. As long as humans are nomadic and adventurous, seeking new opportunities and more resources, everyone will want to know if the grass is greener elsewhere. And on the whole, it is a good thing. Sure it creates more competition for natives like you, still trying to move up the ladder, but stop being selfish, get ahead on what you need to be competitive, and stop blaming your losses on immigrants trying to get ahead just like you and your ancestors did. Even if it wasn't a problem of immigration, you would still have to compete over those in your own hood and you'd still be complaining.
     
  12. Kaos General

    Kaos General Well-Known Member

    Do you live in the uk? You obviously have no idea whats happening at the minute.

    Competition is good, i agree but when it comes at the cost of 3 million unemployed UK workers and still rising you've got to wonder when it ends. How can anyone get ahead as it is at the moment? Selfish? How is it selfish to actually want to work but actually cant because no-one wants to employ you because they can get away with employing someone from another country for less?

    Ok say it was you, and you couldnt in fact get a job anywhere because immigration is out of control and all the companies employ only overseas workers, how would you feel?
     
  13. TrentGrad

    TrentGrad Well-Known Member

    Whilst it's true that a common market does encourage labour mobility, whether this is good or not is another thing entirely.

    If we're talking primarily about construction jobs, they're not going to relocate to Poland- after all, if the market was there to construct those buildings in Poland, they'd likely be in both places.

    The common market in it's infancy was kind of a nod to labour...and it worked very well when the countries involved were, by and large, of similar economic wealth and status. However with the incorporation of so many nations with economies underdeveloped relative to the economies of Western Europe, the common market has become a tool to undercut domestic market forces.

    Of course some nations, like the UK, and to a lesser extent, Germany, France, Italy, Austria and Ireland, are under greater threat of domestic labour saturation because they don't have any linguistic barriers to prevent large scale migration.

    English, French and German are commonly spoken languages in the EU...whereas Finnish, Swedish, Danish, Luxembourgish, Flemish, Dutch, Czech, Polish, Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Slovak, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian and Slovene are less likely to be actively understood. Furthermore, the Greek, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian economies are not healthy enough at this point to be welcoming to facilitate labour migration from Western European nations.

    I'm sure on some levels, there are some from the wealthier EU members whose nationals may fill out some satallite offices in Eastern and Mediterranean Europe...however downward pressure on wages is unhealthy for any economic system, save for one that concerns itself with maximizing the Gini index gap!

    Ironically before the subprime crisis came home to roost, I was already suggesting on a discussion thread I was a member of that the growing income gap was being offset by excessive borrowing, and the net result would ultimately be economic calamity.

    Migration is not a bad thing per se...but unchecked migration IMHO certainly can be, depending upon the conditions, if it impacts the domestic society too extensively! We of all people should be well aware of this fact!
     
  14. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    First of all, I live in the USA, where there's a huge problem with immigration from south of the border, and everywhere else in the entire world from Russia to the Middle East, El Salvador, Mexico, etc everyone wants to be here to work. So yes, I know something about an immigration problem! As a matter of fact, an eighth of our population is unemployed, and a third are underemployed.

    Now, saying it is me (and has already been me before many times), I wouldn't sit around complaining "they took our jobs" all damn day. Obviously they're not taking all the jobs because people ARE finding work in the UK so you have to find another excuse. I would feel that maybe my ass should learn new skills, a new language, go back to school for a higher degree, or accept a job that will hire me that I think I'm too good to take, at least until something gainful does open up so that I'm not sitting around complaining and not making any money at all.

    And another thing, many people here have an average of about 6-8 months before finding employment, some for much longer. If you've been in the game for a couple of weeks, that's not a substantial amount of time, especially when you have someplace to stay and not a homeless bum in the streets under the most precarious circumstances.

    I don't know what the trends are in the UK, but it's pretty much an unsaid universal law that an ass that doesn't work (presuming it's perfectly able to work) is an ass that doesn't eat. Don't do nothing and use the excuse of "they took our jobs!" to justify it because there is work and you can take it just like the immigrants can. Sure no one wants to, but something is better than nothing, yes? Welcome to the rat race.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2010
  15. sinnssykdom

    sinnssykdom Banned Member

    Honestly it really depends. I honestly think they should be a lot more strict with immigration and who they let in and how many they let in.

    I dont mean to come across racist in anyway but i feel that soon whites in my country will be a minority. Don't get me wrong, i have no problem with most immigrants and people of Asian and middle eastern and whatever decent, they're usually great people. However at the same time i think it's important to preserve our own decent. Just like i would completely understand if there was a mass immigration to their own countries and they wanted to preserve their 'own people'. The truth is though, not many people want to migrate to Asia, middle east, India, and even places throughout Europe etc the demands are the US, Canada, Britain and Australia.

    Honestly the jobs don't bother me that much, well the minimum wage jobs sort of bothers me, however the jobs where you need an education such as a doctor, engineer, etc i dont mind. If they can speak my language fluently so i can understand them then i have no problem with it. It's when immigrants come over who can barely speak a word of my language and take up minimum wage jobs is when it really annoys. I know i sound like a racist bitch here, but im honestly not. Just some things really get on my nerves about immigration and that is one of them.

    Another thing that annoys me is when we let so many international students who can barely speak english go to our post secondary schools and take our chance and make it way harder for us to get in and then they dont even plan on working on in our country once they finish, they flee back to their own. It's like they're using us for our resources. Not cool.

    If you can speak english fluently, have a decent education - preferable something that is in demand in my country then i have NO problem at ALL with you. Some of the best doctors over here have been educated in India or Europe or somewhere else. I also like diversity. There needs to be a line though and they need to be more strict of who to let in IMHO.

    The fact is though, they let international students go to school here because they pay triple what we pay, they are usually hard workers and more devoted since they paying way more for their education, others dont mind working at shit places such as mcdonalds earning $8 an hour and so on.
     
  16. Aurora Gory Alice

    Aurora Gory Alice Well-Known Member

    I'll keep my answer nice and simple.

    Generally - yes.
    At the moment - no.
     
  17. Kaos General

    Kaos General Well-Known Member

    How can you say that? Your argument is so flawed its beyond ridiculous. Lets put this into perspective, the unemployment figure currently stands at 3.47 million. Last month it was 3.42 million, the month before that it was 3.18 million, so obviously the reverse of what you stated is true. I also had better clarify a few things as well. Im talking about the construction and engineering industry as i have experienced first hand what thats like. I have no idea what the rest of the indutrys are like and wont even pretend to know.

    In the construction industry thats precisely what is happening. Its not healthy competition at all its blatant undercutting. Immigration is a problem but its not the problem. It the migrants who came to the UK from the EU. This isnt a recent problem by the way, its been like this for some years. Plus i disagree with someones earlier post about when their was a shortage of brickies, sparks etc. There never has been a shortage, ever. The problem is only coming to raise its ugly head now due to the fact we are in the middle of a recession and there is a severe shortage of work across the board.
    The problem arose when certain countries joined the EU, impacting the shrinking job market.

    Now then if im to understand you correctly am i to assume just because someone is homeless then they must be a bum and they must be sub-human? I find that comment offensive because as you put it i was a 'homeless bum' for a many number of years.

    I appreciate it if in future you keep your anger at certain sections of society away from your threads as they are not only offensive they are disrespectful. Just because someone is homeless does not give anyone the right to assume they are a shirker, bum or whatever derogatory term you feel the need to use. I also suggest you sort out you obvious anger issues before you push someone over the edge especially on a forum such as this.

    I for one have had enough of your anger and bile and do not give a rats ass if i upset you or not, because unlike most people i wont stand for it.

    Good day to you all.
     
  18. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Typically when people are homeless they have to bum (meaning to hustle for money, food, shelter) to survive, yes? If I were homeless yes I would be a bum and it has nothing to do with being less human. So I apologize and I'm sorry that you took it another way and it offended you.

    I think it holds true that if an unemployed person's mindset continues to be "there is nothing, so I'm not even gonna try to look for work today" then of course he'll never find it. And you're making the unemployment in your neck of woods look far, far worse than it actually is when London's unemployment rate is roughly 11% now? So you can't find work yet in the industry you want to work in at a salary you think you should get. So that means you have to temporarily imrpovise. I don't see how complaining about immigrants taking low-wage jobs is helping anyone to get one.

    Most people in this poll, from different backgrounds, think migration is a good thing, only two say no. Obviously many others are in agreement that "they took our jobs!" is neither productive nor a valid excuse to voluntarily stay unemployed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2010
  19. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    They're building in the UK now. If it were too expensive to build in the UK they wouldn't be, and if there were even a slight benefit to building in Poland it'd eventually shift.

    Without labour mobility, other things have to be mobile (or everyone loses.)
     
  20. Kaos General

    Kaos General Well-Known Member

    I was neither complaining or moaning, i was voicing my opinion.

    <Mod Edit:Music: Off topic>

    Please stop quoting figures from some website. As already previously stated all im talking about is the construction industry not unemployment as a whole, because once again as previously stated im in no position to comment or speculate on the rest of the job market.

    To blow your argument right out of the water ill share a little something with you. I actively seek work at least 10 hours a day every day, even sundays, i will never give up looking for a job.

    I go out and hand my CV's into local electricians and every single one of them has said to me, the reason there is no jobs in the ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY (just in case you start quoting national statistics again) is because all the polish and romanian companies have been undercutting us so we havent even got enough work for ourselves.

    Bearing in mind at the minute im offering to work for free because i desperately need the experience. Im not after money at this precise moment in time. You still want to tell me im wrong? perhaps you can go onto http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/ and tell all of them they are all wrong as well
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2010
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