more religous dripple...

Discussion in 'The Uncertainty Principle' started by claycad, Oct 11, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. claycad

    claycad Well-Known Member

    I have been thinking about a lot of people's faith and how really I believe it is a delusion people have. I have thought of a good example of the lack of faith in today’s society and just wanted some others opinions on this. This involves the catholic religion, I'm not going to try to be offensive to any Catholics and I know little about Catholicism so if you are catholic feel free to correct anything about my dribble.

    I was thinking about how the Pope is paraded around in a bulletproof booth...the pope mobile I'm sure you have heard it called.

    Like I said, I know little about Catholicism, but from what I understand the Pope is as holy as any human being alive today could possibly be. God's main man here on earth so to speak.

    Now I understand the reason behind the bulletproof pope mobile. Pope John Paul II was attempted to be assassinated in 1981 and the Popes has been protected by bulletproof glass every since.

    To me, if anyone or this forsaken earth should have faith that God will protect them from harm, it should be the Pope! The Pope should have thought "The assassin missed because God protected me. It was divine intervention and God will always protect me until he wills it that I should die. No assassins bullet will harm me as my faith in God will always protect me" or something along those lines. Didn't happen, instead it gets a bulletproof Pope mobile. To me that is saying the Pope, the holiest of the holy, puts more faith in bulletproof glass then his faith in God. If the Pope himself doesn't have faith that God would protect him what chance does any other human being have? Not that I put any faith in God what-so-ever, but to me this shows that human faith is mainly a delusion, a sham.

    If a person of faith was being shot at today and had the option of being behind bulletproof glass or holding a Bible (or religion object of their choice) how many people do you think would actually choose to hold the Bible. (that's a rhetorical question by the way)

    But I would just like some feedback I guess from anyone's opinion on this, especially someone who has religious values and any Catholics opinions as well. Just to satisfy my curiosity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2006
  2. Convergence

    Convergence Guest

    This is a very debateable subject. But who doesn't question it?

    To start, I'll say I'm not a catholic.

    But I have a decent sense of the incorrect views of things.

    First of all, the bible, religion, everyone has different views. Your question, the bible or glass one, is really a perfect display. The reason people would choose the glass is because they do not know the bible enough.

    God does not give people invincibility. It's not to say that he does not protect them, but people misunderstand. God may test you, but he will never do itt past your ability. Whatever he does test you with, there is a way out. If you were his position, would the kind god, you present yourself to be, test people in such a way they could not get through?

    The bible is god's word (inspired). It's 'sharper then any two-edged sword'. It's a guide how to survive the times we live in. It's values are still accurate, and it has predictions.

    It also says in the bible, there will be times when people 'twist the scriptures to benefit their belief'. It also says "Many people will come to me saying, Lord Lord, have I not done great acts in your name? Expelled many demons and done good fortune in your name? But these people are workers of lawlessness. Get away from me you people, I do not know you."

    Though a powerful statement, god states a lifestyle, and rules on how to live a life according to his will. We are not free from sin. But he will forgive, if we repent and truly show we are sorry.

    from what I know, what I believe, I don't think the actual use of a pope is even stated. I do not believe in the pope, I do not believe in the trinity.

    I'm not intending to offend anyone of the Catholic religion...but this is my opinion...

    The pope, is the one that Catholics believe to be a holy man, right? The pope, everyone must remembeer, is imperfect. Just like every other man. You may connect and talk to god through prayer. But God doesn't need a man telling people how to act according to his will. The bible, his word, is all we need to understand and survive Armageddon. The pope will not lead us there.

    The ones to lead us there are the 144,000 and Jesus Christ. God selects the 144,000 over time. We do not know everyone who is, and who isn't. The catholic religion does not participate in the Death of Jesus memorial (if I remember, but I may be wrong, please correct me if I am), The bible said to not remember the days of birth, but the days of death.

    The righteous will be remembered, and resurected to a day of judgment, or a day of everlasting life. This is what god promises. we follow the guidelines he sets, and we live from there.

    I don't think it's right to believe that he will protect you from a bullet. Because there is an existence, and even in the bible, 'Time and unseen occurence'. God is not guilty of it, because he is allowing Satan (Or to some who are more educated in the bible, the lord of the current earth). The reason we are in this position, is because Satan challenged God, that he (Satan) can lead the people same, if not better then god.

    After so many years of 'transforming back and forth into an angel of light' He was hurled down from the heavens, and was said to be known from there one as 'the ruler of the earth'. But there are only two choices. The table of Demons, or the table of god.

    'Wide and spacious is the road leading to death, but narrow and cramped is the road leading to everlasting life'.

    'There will comes hard to deal with' (I do not remember it compeltely off hand at the moment, but there are references to signs of times, earthly destructions, and immoral conduct of man)

    I apologize if I've offended anyone. But this is a small idea of what I can help you with. It's a little late, and I'm a bit tired, butu I can go into greater detail given I had a bible on hand and was in a comfortable time of day.


    Forgive, I'm not one for remembering exact scriptures, but if anything in here might be needed to be quoted via bible scriptures, I will get around to it.
     
  3. the word "faith" for you has become associated with the kind of stupid non-sense faith ppl have in some abstract God up in the sky blah blah blah.
    but actually its possible to have INTELLIGENT faith in something immediate, practical, down to earth & necessary based on undeniable facts:

    * everyone wishes to be happy & avoid suffering, this is the basic fundamental motivation behind every action [what else could it possibly be?! ppl have different definitions of happiness though, so even extreme examples like masochists are still seeking happiness in their own way]

    * no-one is free from suffering [everyone has to experience death, and experience losing everything to which they're attached to, etc...]

    so it makes perfect sense to have faith & hope that lasting happiness is possible, and wishing everyone to achieve a state of lasting happiness.
    you don't need to introduce any invisible God's or anything like that; just a simple, direct faith in the 1 thing which everyone longs for!
    this is sort of "the most general position".

    the most important thing about any faith or belief is what actual effect it has on your behavior. if you believe in something just for the sake of believing in it, then thats completely meaningless. a belief only has value if you actually operate from it in everyday life. that's why i view 99% of all "religious" people as hypocrits, consider this:

    if catholic people ACTUALLY believed that heaven exists, then it immediately follows that they should do absolutely everything to guarantee that they go to heaven, so they should spend their entire lives doing nothing but praying & worshipping their god. it should be on their minds all day long, every day, non-stop.

    the truth is that catholic people don't genuinely believe in heaven or god, they just have some sort of attachment to all those concepts. a lot of them WANT to believe in heaven & god, but they can't because deep down they know its non-sense, but on the surface they engage in self-deception.
     
  4. bluekitten

    bluekitten Member

    Well, in my view, I don't believe that having faith - in whatever, or whomever - means giving up reponsibility for ourselves.

    If someone fires a bullet in our direction, however strong our faith, I think it would be foolish and naive to expect the bullet to miraculously come to a halt before piercing our skull or for a hand to reach down from the sky and shield us from harm.

    I believe that the real function of faith (in this context) is to induce virtuous aspirations in our own minds.

    So, if someone has faith in God then that faith will (hopefully...) inspire them to try and follow the example of the christian teachings; to become more Christ-like.

    So no, I don't think having faith means to give up reponsibility for ourselves and our own well-being. Faith does not neccessarily protect us from harm and danger, but it can protect our minds from the way that we experience it. But I think it's probably better to try and avoid being shot in the first place!. :laugh:

    Just my opinion.

    gabriel.
     
  5. claycad

    claycad Well-Known Member

    Thank you both for your input. Can say I agree with some parts and not others. I enjoy these kinds of debates and conversations so I hope you both and others will continue to join in. I enjoy hearing others opinions about things on this matter, as it expands my own mind and helps mold my own opinions better.

    To Convergence,

    First on the Bible. I was raised Protestent, not from a particualy chruch going family, but my parents did instill religous values taught in the Bible in me. I don't believe in the Pope either. Protestents - from the way I was taught - believe in more of a direct connection to God, that no one human being is anymore holier then another.

    Of course I don't believe any form mainstream religion today, but I do believe there is a God or sorts...I don't believe its a god persay because the word god implicats somethng male, I think of god as more of an it...but if someone asks me if I believe in god I just usually say "yeah" to avoid explaining. And I certainly no longer believe in the God portrayed in the Bible, although that was the one I was taught to believe in.

    I suppose there has always been a part of me that has wanted to find faith in something. What a great thought that there is a God who will forgive me for any sins I have. Rubish in my opinion, but I nice thought if you convince yourself to truly believe it Im sure. The Bible is one of the most confusing, contradicting books I have ever read! Turn the other cheek - an eye for an eye and all that. Second there are some messed up teaching in the Bible that I can't see how could be misinterpreted. Same as Convergence, I'm not one to remember scripture word for word, but I will be willing to dig it up to prove a point. The first passage is the one about disobedient children should be stoned to DEATH. Now maybe there is some interpretation to that passage that I don't get, but the Bible does in fact say that pretty much word for word. The other passage that comes to mind is the one that says a Hebrew man has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Again, perhaps I am misinterpreting that, but I don't know how when it is there in black and white. I don't see how a person can claim to believe in the Bible but then just omit the parts that today's society don't find acceptable or that you have moral objections too such as stoning anyone to death or selling anyone into slavery. Many people of faith seem to think in my opinion that the good teachings of the Bible should be taken literally, while some scripture such as what I mentioned is open to interpretation and is misunderstood.

    Also about the bulletproof glass analogy. Maybe your beliefs contradict this, but many religions including Catholicism and Protestants believe in predestination. That God is in fact PERFECT so therefore God knows before you are even born when, where, and how you are going to die and God also knows before you are born whether you are going to heaven or hell. Your destiny is already written no matter how much you pray or worship nothing will change that. Although your praise, worship, and good deeds are not forgotten in Gods eyes either.

    So maybe someone choosing the Bible of the glass isn't the best analogy as their choice to choose the glass was already destined by God. But in the case of the Pope, which me and you both don't believe in, but for people who do, the fact the Pope should believe (again this is only an opinion based on what I know about Catholicism which isn't a lot) But the Pope should believe that he will not come to any harm unless it is the will of God and that when it is his time to die he will regardless of if he is protected by bulletproof glass or bodyguards. Again, Your personal opinion on this doesn't matter as you don't believe in the Pope. I would like to hear a Catholics thoughts if there is one out there willing to give input though.

    To non_existence

    I agree mostly with what you say – or at least my interpretation of what you said

    People what to be happy, it is the reason for human existence perhaps. What better way to be happy then faith in some sort of God or religion. I also believe in intelligent faith such as faith in humanity or something….

    I wouldn’t say that all Catholics or any other religions absolutely don’t believe in God, but for the most part I think most people don’t, they just delude themselves that God is real, there’s a heaven and a hell or whatever their faith tells them to believe.

    I also think a lot of people believe in God kind of as an insurance policy if you will. “If there is a god and I don’t believe in him, I will be punished. If there isn’t a god but I believe in him anyway, then no harm done” I think that is most people’s way of thinking in today’s society whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

    I don’t think there is anything wrong with a person having faith in anything if it makes them a happier person even if that happiness is a mere delusion. Perhaps that is why I question faith so much, I am hoping someone will come along and say something profound that will give me faith in something. Even a delusion of happiness must be better then no happiness at all.

    Geez this was a long post…I hope I didn’t write it for nothing and at least someone reads it. Thanks if you do:biggrin:
     
  6. claycad

    claycad Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I explained in my absurdly long post above how that isn't the best analogy maybe, but from what I know about Catholicism it is still kind of fitting. The 6th paragraph or so down if you want to bother reading it.

    I like what you said about faith doesn't mean giving up responsibility for ourselves though. I don't think for the most part people do. Even people who have faith don't depend on God for everything. Like I said above, faith isn't a bad thing...I guess that's why I am trying to find it:laugh:

    Thanks for the input.
     
  7. bluekitten

    bluekitten Member

    I thought that your analogy was good.

    I think that there are many benefits to having faith.

    Although I think that it's important to deeply question our assumptions of what having 'faith' really means, most especially regarding having faith in any kind of God or deity.

    I think having faith is an important component of a happy life.

    I think it's important to have faith in ourselves; our own potential, and our own basic goodness, and that of others.

    I think faith can inspire confidence in ourselves and others.

    I think our faith in others whose good qualities we admire can be the cause of us trying to adopt those same qualities ourselves.

    I think faith can give us a sense of 'alright-ness' even when everything in our lives has gone wrong.

    I think faith can help us to overcome our faults and increase our positive qualities.

    I don't think that faith can necessarily move mountains, but I do think it can move our minds.

    I think I think too much. :rolleyes:

    gabriel.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2006
  8. reborn1961

    reborn1961 Guest

    I was raised Catholic and at this point just say I am Christian. My faith in God and Christ is not delusional at all. Keep in mind that faith and belief do not always go hand in hand with structured religions with they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc.

    Structured "religion" is born from someones faith and often follows the road of ritual, rules, ceromony etc. Some people enjoy participating in that structure and some do not. My faith is strong enough that I do not need to question it nor do I need to attend a church to prove it. It is between me and God and it is in my heart and soul.

    So when looking at religions remember that many developed similar to basic business plans and for them to maintain churches, participate in humanitarian programs etc they have to run as a business but hopefully as a non-profit business runs. Try not to catagorize peoples faith and beliefs into structured religions as you will find that many who belive in God, do not believe in joining a church.
     
  9. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    It's been said! you go girl! :hug: :::nods::::
     
  10. claycad

    claycad Well-Known Member

    I don't feel I categorize peoples faith into religion. Maybe I do, I'm just saying I don't feel I do. Using Catholics and the Pope was just an example. I'm sure if I researched other mainstream religions I could come up with just as relevant examples.

    I realize a person don't have to go to church to be religious...sometimes I think it is the people with the most faith that don't go to church. Like you said, church is run too much like a business. Also more of a social club in my opinion then anything to do with religion. Church isn’t all bad, it’s a place to meet people of common interests and form relationships I suppose, but I don’t think whether a person attends church or not as any bearing on there religious beliefs.

    As I stated before, I think most people’s faith in god or heaven or whatever they believe is just a delusion. Something most people will never be willing to admit to themselves.

    This is probably an opinion I should keep to myself but I feel very compelled to throw in my 2 cents I guess. I will warn anybody not to read it if they are offended or easily triggered. It isn’t targeted towards anyone in particular, but to every member of this site who claims to have faith. If you have so much faith in God, then what are you doing looking for support on a suicide forum? I would think that a faith in God that wasn’t in fact a delusion would be enough to ward off those nasty suicidal thoughts. Just my opinion.

    I want to find faith, I really do believe that. But I can’t make myself belief something all logic defies. But I always assumed part of the reason my life is so depressing is because of my lack of faith, and I always assumed that if one had faith in God, they would feel no need to end their life. But yet there are several people on this site that claim to have faith in something…but they are still so unhappy they are contemplating suicide. This is just more reason to sway me further away from faith.

    I hope nobody with faith takes this opinion to heart. I’m the first to admit that I’m a total jackass. Despite my critisim, I really do envy anyone who feels they have true faith in something.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.