Near death experiences, not evidence?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Darken, Mar 9, 2009.

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  1. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    There has been many people who have had near death experiences and claimed it was evidence of an afterlife. A personal story does not count as evidence though. Why is it that nearly all near death experiences are based around ideas the person previously had in memory? Americans seeing jesus, mary, being one with the universe etc. Middle eastern people mostly seeing allah, asians bhudism etc. It seems obvious that near death experiences are not based on an objective reality in another world. Peoples minds form these experiences from their own memories.

    What is the difference between near death experiences and lucid dreaming? Lsd and dmt also give people experiences that feel real and amazing although it is just a reaction in the brain. Dmt is the strongest known hallucinogenic substance. It is also produced by our brains naturally. Dmt is released by the pineal gland, guess when? When you are dying, and when you are dreaming. Meditation masters also can through their training force their brain into a altered state. When you are deeply relaxed and your mind is calm your brain wave frequency changes. The less conscious you are of your surroundings the deeper your dream state becomes.

    I do believe in near death experiences, I just think they probably are not any thing supernatural. Why doesn't any one come back with a way to scientifically prove the existence of souls. There is no evidence only anecdotes. You don't need a functioning brain to have these experiences supposedly. There is so many people who sell books and videos about this just to capitalize on peoples fears. The same thing religions do. I understand why people believe this crap though, life is fucking cruel if there is some thing better after it would be comforting.
     
  2. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    The thing is that people naturally appply laws of reality to the after life
    while after life is not reallity, there are no physics, there no colors, no light
    it is only what we want it to be, as simple as this.
    It is our hopes and fears, it is everything and nothing in the same time
    we can find ourself on a cliff, in case of jumping from it, some may go threw death again
    others will feel pain and just stand up, while someone ales will fly.

    Some will be stuck in a mamory for eternity, good memory or bad memory
    some will meet god, others will see jesus, or relatives.

    The one and only common thing that i know off is the tunnel with the light

    I also saw program about people telling that they felt like they are pulled underground
    they felt fear and saw shadow like creatures, they assumed it is hell and it actualy was
    just a simple imagination that grew into bigger picture
    starting with fear, then the idea that hell is underground, then followed by the idea
    that there are demons in hell, and pain.

    Overall people should remember and undarstand that after we die
    we have no feelings as it is physical thing (brain activity)
    we cant see as it it physical thing (we have no eyes)
    same with hearing or any other thing
    same as our boddy, if we look at ourself after we die we will see the boddy we know
    even though it is just based on our memorys, and in fact there is no boddy
    the problems start if we have bad memorys about our boddys in this specific example.
    bad memorys that will twist our imagination and turn into hell
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2009
  3. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    There is no afterlife. You're just dead. However, physiologically your brain will behave differently when deprived of oxygen. Phantom senses can easily be interpreted as supernatural phenomena for people who have a disposition conducive to spirituality.

    If it brings comfort to the tired and sick, why bother with it?
     
  4. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    You are right, phantom senses can look as something supernatural
    but ignorance by itself dosnt eleminates the "after life" idea.
    i know many things about psycholigy, genetics, boddy overall functions
    from electrical activity to nural acitivty and all the way to the tiny
    strings of energy that every singel atom in our boddy is made of.
    when i combine all the knowlage i have, i just cant see why death should be the end
    we are physical creatures, even though we made out of energy
    now if you fammiliar with some theorys about energy in the overall univarse
    you will know that in the univarse no energy is ever waisted
    and everything is cycling, therefore there is "afterlife" but the true
    question is, can we be aware of ourselfs and our seroundings
    as obviously energy is just energy, no eyes to see, no ears to hear...
     
  5. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    dont open this can of worms, i really cant be bothered with attempting to drill some sense into ignorant people....
     
  6. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    The energy making up our bodies will always exist in some form or another. But ourselves will cease to be. All we are is an ego. I think my favorite Buddhist bit of wisdom (although I'm not a Buddhist in any sense) is: What can you take away from a flower to make it no longer a flower? The petal? The stem? The pollen? Or just the concept of the flower?

    Has anybody reading this thread experienced a near-death sensation that gave weight to the sense of an afterlife?

    My suicide attempts have all be accompanied by a numbness and great chill. Relief, yes, but no positive glowing light or flames licking at my feet. In my experience, finding peace in death is a purely cerebral exercise.
     
  7. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    if anything my personal opinion on an afterlife is that afterlife would be purely hell, an eternity of thinking, an eternity of not being able to escape yourself, always being aware, i can barely cope with the years i have had as myself but to "live" (for the want of a better term) for an eternity with no escape, no peace from the chatter of my thoughts is a concept i fear more than that of simply ceasing to exist.
    it may be that an afterlife is an attempt at using faith to blind ourselves of our mortality and stave of the dreaded finality, yet it is a half cocked idea.
    i think a lot of the problem is that it is physically impossible to imagine nothingness, so the finality of death cannot be imagined, only comparisons being a black, senseless void, which it is not, nothing no longer exists. it is not that we will die and experience this void rather we will die and not exist no more, not aware of any state as there is no state. a strange idea when people really put thought into it yet a peaceful thought to think i will no longer think, feel, worry, i will sleep for an eternity, no dreams. the fact that this peace awaits sort of makes the meantime endurable.
    i do suppose the only way to find out is to wait and see, if there is an afterlife i owe all those who argue its existance on here a pint in a heavenly pub with greater ales than any seen on earth.
     
  8. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

    NDE's arn't evidence for any after life - they can be explained naturally - not to mention everyone has conflicting stories. Christian NDE = seeing jesus, Muslim NDE = seeing allah, etc
     
  9. LastCrusade

    LastCrusade Well-Known Member

    one thing that cannot be denied is that human beings has the propensity to worship.
     
  10. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    True, anyone can tell a story and that does not make its contents true. But, the information contained within many NDE's is inexplicable in its depth and more importantly, its factuality. This observation defies any memory or imagination based explanation. Examples that i gave on another thread included the appearance of a long deceased relative that the individual in question had never met before. How, in the absence of the necessary sensory imput, would a brain be able to create an exact copy of the identity in question and insert it into a 'hallucination' ?

    Then there is the precise information later recalled by many NDE'rs, consisting of novel details, specific to the events in question, that occured at a time of brain incapacitation. Could you explain how the individual's brain was able to procure all of this information and incorporate it into a 'hallucination' which occured just before the real events took place in identical fashion to the preceeding 'imagining's' ? Would it not make more sense to conclude that the individual was able to recall events in precise detail, including novel details that would not be present in some form of generic artificial contruction of what one would expect a hospital scene to be like, because they actually DID experience it first-hand?



    How come atheists even have NDE's at all? Their 'ideas' about death are that there is nothing post-death, yet they are just as likely as people who do believe in an afterlife to experience an NDE, including the core common elements, most notably, the 'being of light' who 'talks them through' their life, the choices they made and the actions they took, and how their behaviour affected others.



    It isn't a universal occurance that any given group 'see' a particular deity specific to them. Besides, how do you know that they aren't all seeing the same entity in these NDE's and that some are -interpreting- it differently according to preferential bias? What an atheist describes as a 'being of light', a Christian might claim to be Jesus, or a Muslim, Allah. One question i would have is; how does anyone know that they are looking at Jesus when no-one actually knows what Jesus looked like?




    All we have are people's -interpretations- of what they saw. Subjective accounts vary widely even in 'real-life' situations, e.g. a road traffic accident, a chance encounter with a bear, etc. Yet, they have strong commonalities which lead us to conclude that the experience was real; as do NDE's. If they are 'formed from memories' why do they often contain so much information that would not be available to the individual as they had never experienced it?

    ND experiences occur while unconscious and, in many cases, when the brain in demonstratably non-functional. Lucid dreaming doesn't.



    Yes, a chemical 'reaction' that would be able to be detected. Yet, brain scan's reveal no measurable activity. Why?



    Another observation that supports consciousness being independant of the internal programming of the physical brain. The brain being 'forced' do something by what? the brain? :huh:



    Yet, the volume and accuracy of information later recalled by NDE'rs is suggestive of being very 'conscious' of their 'surroundings'.



    As the consciousness is interpreted as being the 'soul', any evidence that consciousness is a separate entity and not merely a product of the physical brain constitutes the evidence that you ask for. That said, on receiving said evidence you will more likely dismiss it and rationalise that it 'isn't evidence' of the phenomenon in question but instead something else of absurdly poor fit.


    Yes, incredible anecdotes, with inexplicably voluminous and -factual- information.



    Thus, refuting the 'lucid dreaming' argument.



    True, there are many people who seek to profit out of anything, but this says nothing about the entity itself, only human nature. That people largely sell books to make money does not tell us whether or not the contents of a particular book in question are fact or fiction.


    True, and some people continue to parrot 'it's an hallucination caused by oxygen starvation' despite the observations to the contrary.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2009
  11. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    I'd like to see this evidence. I've been to many sites about near death experiences, I've even read a few books about them. If these experiences are real they should be one of the biggest focuses of modern science, but they aren't why? I'd like to see video or some kind of other evidence that people can have near death experiences when their bodies are totally shut down. No heart beat or brain functions at all. People have brought back knowledge they never had before from these experiences, lets see it then. All I can find is a bunch of random stories. Spirituality, religion, supernaturalism are big money makers, people are gullible and will try to buy hope and salvation. There is a ton of fakes and hoaxes and few evidence if any at all. People need to stop believing in things they can't prove, thats one of the main reasons the world is in such a big mess.
     
  12. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    I say, a person who claims to have supernatural powers
    must be tested, and if found that he is just faking it
    to throw him in to a cell to roat for a few years...

    As a citizen of Ukraine, it is VERY popular shit here all this supernatural crap
    same as in Russia, people are totaly fucked up...
    There should be a law against it!
     
  13. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    :laugh:

    Same as here in California.
     
  14. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    *Scratches head*



    Then you have probably already seen, at least some, of 'this evidence'.



    It -should be- but 'scientists' are materialists and tend to rationalise the evidence accordingly.



    I shouldn't think it possible to 'video' it. Besides, what would you likely see? A lifeless, motionless body, lying in a bed, until such time as they return to consciousness, or their consciousness returns to their physical body, depending upon what it is you choose to accept.

    In many cases the accounts themselves are of events that occured at a time when their brain was non-functional. The accounts are extremely detailed. The information is factual, not merely extensive. This could be -interpreted- quite legitimately as 'evidence' that this experience occured -at that time- That it was real, not hallucinatory, and thus provides the 'proof' sought by the those that claim, with hands firmly pressed against eyes, that they 'cant see any evidence'. Alternatively, one can claim that it is some form of hallucination, without precedent, that involves the brain somehow, never explained, creating perfect replications of soon to happen events, or, new experiences entirely, that incorporate factual, but impossible to know information, such as the identity of a never before met, relative.


    You lead with a statement which implies that you have 'seen it' (!) What did you make of the information they are claiming to have procured in this manner? Could you offer a non half-baked alternative explanation for how these individuals came about the wealth of information that they are claiming to have derived from experiencing an alternative reality?

    Everything you dont personally witness is a 'story'. Every word written in every book, pamphlet, research paper or 'fact' sheet is nothing more than a 'story' which asks of you that you place your faith in the veracity of its contents. People seem only to happy to accept 'stories' every day of their lives, providing that the information isn't antagonistic of their pre-existing belief system.


    There is much evidence:

    www.thescoleexperiment.com
    http://www.spiritandscience.org/Afterlife.htm

    People who believe that consciousness is merely a product of the brain cannot prove this either. In fact, there is a whole host of observations that lend themselves more to duality than materialism. Not least the obvious fact that we have it at all. Why, are we aware of our very existence? If we are merely acting according to the brain's programming we should just do without any awareness of the fact that we are doing. There is no part of the brain that when stimulated causes a person to choose or believe. Conscious activity -preceeds- neural events. Then there is the small matter of memories. We lose some 10 million neural connections every day, on average, yet memories and personality remain, over a lifetime. How is this possible? How can it be that a smell can trigger a memory from childhood, despite the fact that the cells present during that time, which presumably provide storage for the information pertaining to the memory in question, have been long lost, replaced by more, which in turn have been replaced by more, and so on, for years?

    If the brain is solely a physical instrument utilised by the self/consciousness then the above would all make much more sense.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2009
  15. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    I went through both those links the first one doesn't actually have any evidence for what they are claiming. It says they had mediums/psychics conjure apparations and speak with the dead supposedly but they didn't record any of it or show the tests they did. They just claim they did. THey have a lot of weird photos that don't mean shit, I don't see what they were trying to prove with them. Crappy low budget website, they must really care about science and showing evidence of the reality of life after death... the second link you posted I went through all the links that claimed to have evidence. The first few I clicked all lead to dead pages. Thanks for trying to defend your beliefs but I still don't see any thing convincing. Maybe I just didn't search hard enough. Either way I'm tired of all the supernatural bs most of it is for entertainment or profit. None of it has any hard evidence if any. That challenge for a million dollars by james rhandi is still going too. Who ever can provide evidence for paranormal/supernatural claims wins, not a single one has done it yet though many have tried. I want there to be some thing in life to give it meaning like a god or life after death, just I'm not going to delude myself when I feel its all bs.
     
  16. Random

    Random Well-Known Member

    I have had something resembling a NDE (Although it didn't have all the hallmarks and I'm not going to go into a lot of detail). I must admit that it isn't evidence of anything at all other than some pretty strange stuff happens near the end of life. Maybe it can all eventually be explained.

    I certainly found some of the aspects of the experience to be seemingly controlled by some vast intelligence far, far greater than anything I've ever known my own mind to be capable of. But again, it isn't evidence. It's all subjective until somebody figures out how to prove something one way or another. I certainly don't blame people who have had intense NDEs for believing there's more to it than just a lack of oxygen to organic tissue or whatever. I can see where they're coming from. I don't necessarily believe it to be so but I understand.
     
  17. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

    *facepalm*

    One of the dumbest quotes I've heard on this website.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2009
  18. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAywxhVvLU4 In this video it shows how people who were subjected to high g forces black out due to lack of blood in the brain. Eighteen percent of them said they experienced nde/oobe's. I don't know what nde's really are but my theory is that they are caused by the release of dmt by the pineal gland. Dmt trips are known to also give mystical and spiritual experiences. When your brain shuts down and cuts off the outside world, then you can enter the inner world of the mind and imagination. You stop seeing with your normal eyes and start seeing through the third eye, which is what the pineal gland is literally. People probably have such varied near death experiences because when they happen you are receiving information from some thing the mind cannot comprehend. So the brain relates this information to things you already know. This explains why people from different parts of the world perceive these experiences as usually as some thing they already know of, from their culture or personal beliefs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2009
  19. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    Dude, sorry i must ask but ARE YOU A RETARD?...
    its been told for like 1000 times that there were people WITH NO BRAIN ACTIVITY
    that went threw NDE's, do you know what "no brain activity" means?...

    And ofcourse you just missed the one and very important part
    when people told about what the doctors done during a sargury
    and what tools they used and what they said and so on...
    Is it an illusion as well?... (espacialy when the doctors admit they said, did, used whatever)
     
  20. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    Well regardless, I'm pretty sure that 100% of nde are reported from people who have brain activity. Regardless of being brain dead at one point, anybody who recovers went through a period where they were out of sync with time. It's easy to imagine a case where somebody comes to, still groggy and unaware of his surroundings, imagines something, then later reports it as a nde.

    The human experience is very subjective. Especially if the brain is fluxuating between life and death. Let's face it, the whole discussion goes back to personal faith.
     
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