Need help/advice fast, please! SUICUDAL boyfriend!

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by redbutterfly, Feb 23, 2014.

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  1. redbutterfly

    redbutterfly Member

    Short version:
    Kara is my best friend. Her Boyfriend Chuck has only known her for 4 months and is already obsessed with her. She no longer wants to be with him but every time she threatens to leave he threatens to kill himself. He has already stabbed himself twice and causes himself harm on a daily bases. He is explosive, controlive, and manipulative. Please help!

    Long version:
    If I'll say hello everyone. I'm not the type to reach out like this, I'm usually the one that helps all my friends, and has a reasonable answer to guide them. But I am just stuck with this issue. Now I need help and I don't know where to turn.

    So my very best friend in the world, I'll call her Kara, started dating this guy at work, I'll call him Chuck. They dated for about a month before circumstances made her move in with him in his mother and father's house. (He is younger than her, only 18, but she didn't know this at the time, he lied and said he was 25, it wasn't till she moved in with him did she find out his real age.) Once she moved in he started hitting her and mentally abusing her. He is a really strong guy, was a boxer, and she is a tiny girl. Chuck is explosive and has major anger problems, he treats Kara like she is his property. He would drive somewhere in HER car and beat her, or pin her in a corner in his room and cover her mouth as he hit her so his family wouldn't hear. After two months of that she had enough and broke away from him, moving back into her parent's house. And that was a relief to us. Everyone was glad he left her go without hurting her. He claimed he was sorry for ever hitting her.

    During the time in her mother's house Kara kept thinking about Chuck. I tried to help her, but she wouldn't listen. Chuck was telling her at work he was miserable with his life, that he wanted to kill himself and kept begging for her to come back, every day. During this time he stole from her bank account, since when she moved out in a hurry she accidentally left it in his wallet. He begged for her forgiveness. I kept telling her to forget him, that he was no good if he could hit you and abuse you, but . . .

    After being away from him for a week she had to see him. He begged and cried, so they meet. Since she left he really threw his life away. He lost all is Id's, work pay card, Social security card, was doing lots a weed, hardly came home, was explosive, wandered the streets. So much so he got himself kicked out of his parent's house. So when he came to her, crying, he was homeless. He swore up and down that he was changed that he would never hit her again. He was totally obsessed with her. Even though they only dated for a month and then lived together for two months all he could think about was her. He said he had to get out of the house cause he'd see her apparition in his room, he said he roamed the streets looking for her. He said he could not live without her.

    Kara's mother would not allow someone who hit her daughter to move in so Kara, feeling partly responsible decided to help him. I asked how she left about him, and she says that sometimes she loves him, but she's not in love with him. She really just wanted to be friends. She talked to his parents and they said he can move back in if she moves back in as well ( cause they were both helping with rent, his parents are very mean people and treat him like dirt for how badly he had treated the rest of the family. He could only stay as long as the two of them pay up. They like her more than him because he is explosive.) She lived there with him for another month, hoping things would get better, during that time he was still explosive and they argued constantly, he didn't hit her but he would bend her fingers back to make her stop complaining, or get in her face and yell and cuss. And he started to tell her how to dress, she put her foot down and fought the issue which caused lots of arguments, he punched her car horn and dented it. Now whenever they are at the store together if a guy looks at her wrong he will start and argument. He's already cussed out a convince store clerk (male) and generally looks for fights with other guys over staring at his "wife".

    And now whenever she threatens to leave him, or says let's just be friends, or hesitated to say that she's his wife or that she is in love with him he threatens to kill himself. He has already stabbed himself in the leg and sliced his arm open in a six inch gash.

    Just two weeks ago I went with them to go had in an job application, and a small argument escalated to a full blown argument. I was sitting in the back watching this unfold, scared that he was going to start hitting her as he yelled in her face, and she yelled right back. She said she wanted to leave and he took her keys and threw them out of the car then he started to punch himself in the face, really, really, hard. He used to do boxing and is a pretty buff guy and I could hear the pounding whacks. It was horrible. We freaked and grabbed his hands and he pushed me off and grabbed his switchblade. Kara and I had to literally struggle against him from cutting his wrist. That’s when he stabbed his leg.

    Another time after that we were all talking at a picnic table, and she again tried to tell Chuck that she just wanted to be friends and he started to punch in his face, punch the metal picnic table, threw his cup of soda. I grabbed his switch blade before he could take it from his pocket and have not given it back to him since. He was telling us to leave and walk away, that he was just going to kill himself. He kept trying to shove his fingers into his eyes to where we had to grab his hands. Till Kara said, OK, OK, I GIVE YOU WIN, I'll stay.

    That’s been the vicious cycle. Kara doesn't want to be with him, but she can't leave because he WILL kill himself. She says at times she feels for him as a friend, but can't break away from him. She says she can't have the guilt that he killed himself over her on her conscious. But we have convinced him to go see a therapists. And Kara will be scheduling his appointment in the next few weeks. That took a lonnnnnngggggg time to convince him to go. I basically said the next time he tried to kill himself around me I was gonna call the cops. He doesn't want to go, but he is willing to give it a try.

    Kara really needs help with this. I am posting this for her, at her request because she doesn't have internet. Currently they are renting a place with their combined income. Chuck's parents don't want him back in the house and Kara really wants to move back home to her mother's, but doesn't want him to commit suicide.

    As a friend what advise can I give her? What should she do about Chuck?

    Edit to add:

    I forgot to mention that Chuck doesn't allow her to leave the house without him. If she goes anywhere he must go too, even if she goes to work and he is not working, he will sit in the car waiting for her. If she talks to anyone at work he wants to know what is exactly said. If her cleavage pops out of the top of her brawl, but under her covering shirt (meaning you can see the bump of her cleavage under her shirt, he will force her to wear a jacket. But he no longer allows her to wear brawls like that anymore, she has to wear full covering cup brawls. And he hates her leggins. He also wants her to stop wearing make up to work. But she fights to be able to wear her makeup. And she's not allowed to talk to guys at all, if she does talk to a guy at work it has to be purely business related.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2014
  2. unionfalls

    unionfalls Well-Known Member

    Only read the short version so far. Need to say, help her get out now! It is not your/her fault or responsibility for his actions. Get her out of this situation and call the police. If he is this distressed they have to take him for at least a 72 hr psychiatric hold. Especially if he has self inflicted cuts on himself that the police can see. She needs to get out now, it will only get worse if this is how it is after only 4 months. Wishing you both to be safe, get local emergency services involved.
  3. total eclipse

    total eclipse SF Friend Staff Alumni

    He is blackmailing her and doesn't give a shit abt anyone but himself time to call police on him and get your friend to somewhere safe He is abusing her and needs to be stopped so i think call police is the only way to get him lock up where he will get some help
  4. unionfalls

    unionfalls Well-Known Member

    Okay I read it all. This is my opinion, GET HER OUT NOW! Call the police, I would not be concerned if she does feel for him or not. I am a 39 year old male and I would not want to be anywhere near this guy. He will hurt her and probably you as well. Call the police to help you get her moved out. Tell the police whatever you can about the situations, this is no time to be quite or to hold confidences. I would not try this without police protection. Than get a restraining order. This is domestic abuse and that only gets worse. I have no personal experience with this type of situation but please get her out now. Get your friend crisis counselling for domestic abuse as well.
  5. randomguy9

    randomguy9 Put's the "Pro" in Profanity Chat Pro

    I unfortunately know multiple women who have had to pull themselves out of abusive relationships.

    The way they manage to manipulate their partners into staying is astonishing and disgusting.

    The constant "I have changed." without doing anything to change is among the cards.

    I do not know if he will end up killing himself if she leaves. It could just be one of the many manipulation cards in his deck, or it could be true.

    Still, he needs his own help. And it is not "Kara's" responceability to tolerate this abuse. He needs to get his issues worked out, but this shouldn't be her battle.

    She needs to think of herself right now... no woman should suffer that kind of abuse. She is at risk of injury or death by staying with him. If they are sleeping together she is at risk of bringing a child into this mess.

    A common mistake women make is the belief they can fix a guy. He needs to fix himself... she can't do it for him. Abusers tend not to be motivated to change.

    She needs to get help for herself, get out of this mess, and do it safely.
  6. youRprecious!

    youRprecious! Antiquities Friend

    agreed, totally. If he goes through with his threat, that is only his business, nothing to do with your friend who must not allow herself to be blackmailed like this.
  7. flowers

    flowers Senior Member

    I would strongly suggest she call a women's shelter and find out how to get safe. He could be dangerous to her life. She is not responsible for him in any way. However she is responsible for herself and her own safety. Her life and safety and sanity are what is important here. He will continue to manipulate and harm her as long as she allows it. I say this with compassion for her

    I highly recommend she find out how to take the steps to get and stay safe from him. this is serious. And potentially even more serious. Glad you are a good friend and came here to post. And btw I know you realize how serious it is. I am just confirming what you already know. Please, if nothing else,keep us updated.

    Finally, if your friend cannot call a battered women's line to find out where to seek SAFE shelter, can you call? I am concerned that if she goes to a house that he knows about he can find her. She also should change her cell phone number. But there are more steps to protecting oneself from contact and further/future harm. Sometimes these situations escalate into worse. So all steps to get and stay safe NOW are very important :hug: you are a good friend
  8. redbutterfly

    redbutterfly Member

    Thank you. I tell her this, all the time. I tell her to just leave, she can come live with me if need be. But if I did call the police he would flip, he has even said it before. One time we were in the DMV and he had said something to get h=under Kara's skin, she was doing her best to put on a face and ignore it till they got to the car while he was taking the picture for the California sate ID he lost, but he was flipping out, whispering, loudly, in almost a growl, demanding for her to tell him what was bothering her right then and there. She kept telling him to wait till they got outside, but he got louder and louder, I mentioned that everyone, including the security guard as staring at them, and he said, right in front of the guy, wearing a police uniform, "Let him come over here and touch me, watch what happens to him."

    So if the police show up to take him he would fight, and till about 8 months ago he was a serious boxer, his fists are registered as deadly weapons, he would fight and the police would have to taze him. I have seen some of the trophies he has won in boxing. And Kara doesn't want to ruin his future, even though it would be him ruining his own future, I told her this but she still feels like she is indirectly ruining his life by sending him away like that, cause his own recklessness would get him thrown into jail.
  9. fallen2far

    fallen2far Member

    I'd like to see him be helped with his dealing with suicide feelings while in the process of dealing with the breakup of Chuck and Kara. Their break up seems to be for the best. What i find an issue with is that she's feeling responsible for him. He is in a bad situation, but there are other avenues for him in accepting certain realities.... like that she doesn't love him.

    I'm assuming you're asking for help between another impending episode resulting in calling the cops (don't back off from that at all) and now for her that she would be willing to go along with that doesn't involve the police.

    You're saying there's a plan in place: therapy? I think setting a timeframe will help you. Set a mark timeframe (maybe something like 3 weeks) for improvement. Not calm, improvement. Calm would be not yelling much or being more docile. This indicates actively doing nothing. A person like this will justify "not doing wrong is good" and the people who use this method of reasoning will justify a sense of entitlement. (You can identify this sense of entitlement already present in the evidence he refers to her as his "wife". It's a possessive claim to justify action that isn't true.) There is actually no change because this is already a natural state.

    Conversely: if he's actively doing something that surprises you, like treating her better or something that: that indicates effort. It's unlikely to happen, but there may be some effort to make himself better. If there is an improvement, then give another timeframe of sustained improvement. At least 6 weeks of sustained improvement. If he gets better and then immediately goes back to being calm or abusive. It's like he never made any change at all. If he misses any of his first 4 sessions, consider that reverting to calm.

    The timeframes aren't for him, the timeframe is for Kara. She's feeling responsible for him as some kind of moral connection. Some obligation of duty but the morals and obligations are too vague. By setting these ultimatums for herself, by defining the morality and the obligation, she can in her mind, easier justify breaking commitment with him if he doesn't show evidence of improvement.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2014
  10. redbutterfly

    redbutterfly Member

    I just wanted to say thank you to everyone. I appreciate everything you are saying to me. Sadly it's things I have already told her. But I swear, the next time I see the argument escalating I WILL call the police. I am just afraid she will get mad at me, when all I am doing is trying to be a good friend. I guess I will ask her this tomorrow since I will be meeting with her, just us. Its a rare moment I can actually say what I think and feel without worrying if he will get angry or interrupt me or try to send me home or pull her out of the store as he always does.

    And fallen2far I am printing out your post to show her. That is an excellent idea.

    You are so right about Kara feeling like she has a moral connection and obligation to him. She tells me over and over that she has changed him.

    He tells her that he was never like this with any of his previous girlfriends he had in the past, that if a girl wanted to leave him he would shrug it off as nothing and move on to the next hot girl. She's told me that he has said Kara is so different, more different then any girl he has met. When she first met him he did weed, and drank beer heavily. Ever since the fist time she left ( just for that one week) he stopped and has not picked it up since. ( though she caught him popping pills and now controls his pills by keeping them in her purse, which she thinks he still sneaks into.) He no longer talks about using women like he used to. And he says that he wants an eternal relationship, for always and forever, he is not fooling around like he used to. He no longer says hurtful things to her so the mental abuse has stopped. Now when he gets angry he is just controlive, saying he will never let her go ever because he loves her, and that she is HIS. That she is going to have to learn to love him and smile cause he is not going to allow her to leave. He's said that right in front of me, with a manic look in his eyes . . . (During his darkest moods she has told me that he said if she ever cheats on him he will kill her then himself. )

    So in ways she has changed him. And I think she sees these little changes and thinks, well as long as he is willing to bend to see things my way, then I am willing to keep working with him, to help him. That moral obligation is the only thing that keeps her from going back to her mothers, that and the fact she thinks he will commit suicide.

    She's told me many times before that he has no one, his parents treat him like crap, ( proof point they forced Kara and Chuck to leave and the very next day they loved someone else into his room and cleaned it out) and that he feels if she were to leave then the only good thing in his life would leave too.

    They have one or two days where they will be sweet to each other, then something will happen, some little argument will be blown out of hand and they will be screaming at each other, him getting in her face and pinching her hand, or bending her fingers to make her shut up so he can have the upper hand in the yelling contest.

    Just the other day, I don't know what happen but they were yelling and she kept repeating that she "had to wipe her nose last night!" And he yelled back at her "I haven't hit you since you came back!" every time she would say that. I am not sure, but I think he did hit her, or elbowed her and she just isn't telling me. But I will finally be able to ask her tomorrow since we will have a moment alone together.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2014
  11. redbutterfly

    redbutterfly Member

    And another thing fallen2far,

    When you said, "I'd like to see him be helped with his dealing with suicide feelings while in the process of dealing with the breakup of Chuck and Kara."

    I would like that two, but he can't handle it. The moment she ever hints that something is wrong he just shuts down and focuses on nothing but arguing till she reverts back to saying she loves him and that she is his wife. He literary loses it. I can't see how this subject can even be handled in a therapists office. If you have any suggestions, of how this should be brought up or handled, I would love to hear them. And thank you for all the advise you already gave.
  12. flowers

    flowers Senior Member

    this reminds me of someone I know who was in a relationship with someone. Finally when she realized her life was truly in danger she called the police. She called and called. When she finally got help she found out he had a rap sheet. Domestic violence and other things. She had no way of knowing it until then. He was kind and sweet unless he was flipping. But he flipped too often. And then would cry etc. He was dangerous. But I will say, he was not as dangerous as chuck. Perhaps she would be willing to do an online chat with a domestic abuse hotline webite. BUT please do not let her do it with her computer. Some guys put software or download something to track where people have been and what they are writing.
  13. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    I will be commenting on this. This thread will be needing a trigger warning when I am through.
  14. fallen2far

    fallen2far Member

    His possessive nature is most likely because he personally feels he needs her. I think it's called codependecy.

    Most of what I hear from him is insecurity. Working out/boxing training is physically controlling his body to fight back against things that will hurt him. He's possessive because he feels if she were given a choice, she would leave him. (And he's right).

    He doesn't have much so he wants to hold onto what he feels he has harder. If he looses a relationship, he will loose a big part of his justification in life.

    The reason why first loves are so important to people is because they were present during the most important moments of their life. For him, he had many milestones.... gave up weed. Moved out of an abusive home. Moved in with his first girlfriend. Important moments that that really are defining him as a person. That said, his love is possessive and not mutual. It is both one sided and abusive. His possessive and manipulative nature is selfish and is killing her.

    The problem is, he's afraid of what this loss means. His life was worse without her than with her, so he could be afraid of him reverting to his old ways without her (a possibility). He could be afraid she's as good as he can be with. He could just be afraid of being alone.

    Due to the stories you mentioned, he may not be willing to accept a break up and he'll respond to confrontation negatively. If you are confronting him about this (and he most likely will fight every step)

    First, make it clear that the relationship is ending. If she doesnt love him that way, she has to be sure the relationship will end. If she is starting to picture this relationship going on, she'll always take him back. If he has hope she can be turned around he'll persist. She has to be sure it's ending and put no doubt in his mind.

    Second. He has to accept the conclusion. If you come up with reasons to break up, he'll deny them.*He has to come to this conclusion himself. It doesn't sound like he has a selfless nature, so comments on him hurting her might not be enough. If they fight as often as you say, there has to be aspects of her he doesn't like which will help him accept the end of the relationship.

    Third, he has to know that just because she was there for the important things in his life, her not being there doesn't mean he has to go back to the abusive family. He might claim to be helpless and nothing without her, but be prepared with other outlets for him.

    Again, this is only if he's willing to accept it's over. You may have to steel yourself.

    That's just my take fwiw.
  15. redbutterfly

    redbutterfly Member


    That day were were supposed to be alone was a trip out of town. He wasn't supposed to go but he begged, pleaded and threw a fit, took her keys, etc. Till she finally caved. Then that got me mad because it was soooo ridiculous. He was acting like a baby, because he can't stand her going on a 80 mile road trip to visit a sick retaliative, (who I knew very well, since her family is practically my family.) They started to argue at my house and I was like, no, lets just go. Whatever. I said that he gets whatever he wants when he acts like a baby and that Kara gives into him too much. I was pissed. She knew I wanted to talk with her alone . . .

    She's now grumpy with him as well since yesterday he was fine with her going alone with now and now he is not. She says its abandonment issues, he says its just he can't stand for there to be so many miles in between them. It was just, UGH.

    So he comes, and the moment he is allowed to he does a 360 degrees in attitude and is all happy and smiles in the back of the car. I lose my chance to talk alone with her . . .

    Since Kara doesn't want him to meet her extended family, cause no one in her family likes him. We drop him off at the mall and go visit them. During those few minutes where we are not with family I try to tell her as much as I can of everyone's helpful suggestions. She is really interested in reading this forum, so one day, when he is free to come to my house alone, I'd like to show her this thread. She was thinking of showing it to him as a way to enforce the fact that he needs to go to therapy. I am not too keen on the idea as of yet . . .

    Anyways the day goes great till we have to pick him back up and are about to head back into town. They start to argue cause he wanted to hold Kara's hand since the whole three hours he was without her was soooooooo agonizing . . . and she said no and pulled away. So he garbs it and squeezed it hard, throwing a fit, huffing and grinding his teeth. Everyone in the store it looking at them. They go out into the parking lot and they start to yell at each other. I usher everyone into the car and there is just flippage and chaos. Screaming, screaming. Kara flips out worse than I have ever seen her. I think the stress is getting to her. The entire hour drive back they are fighting. She says she wants to end the relationship now. But by the time they get back into town he has convinced her to calm down and they drop me off at my house and go home.

    What little I did get to talk to her I reconfirmed: that if he did get therapy and she could leave without him killing himself, she would leave him, because she does feel responsible. She said "I made him fall in love with me." I tried to tell her that was HIS choice to love you, she didn't make him do anything he didn't want too and that he is obsessive.

    I honestly don't know what else I can say to her to make her realize that this relationship will never work, the fight now two times A DAY, really bad, nasty arguments. He does suspicious things (like hiding the phone from her, or logging out before she can check his history at the library) or says the wrong things, and it causes arguments, or escalates them. They are both very dominate personalities, Kara is not one to be pushed around, one reason why I am surprised she is staying with this guy, and those personalities are clashing. She's said as much. Its gotten to the point she is done being helpless, she is fighting back. And her aggression is making him back down.

    But its like you said fallen2far:
    "Calm would be not yelling much or being more docile. This indicates actively doing nothing. A person like this will justify "not doing wrong is good" and the people who use this method of reasoning will justify a sense of entitlement."

    He was phasing in and out of being calm and screaming. When he finally remained clam and she stopped yelling he just expected her to cuddle and soothe him, the argument was not even fully resolved. He kept saying "Comfort me, COMFORT ME, I am going insane back here!" from the back seat.

    Like he was entitled to her affection just because he said he'd change. Her explaining that was not enough, that he had to show her just caused him to get louder, and louder, till it was almost causing another screaming fight again.

    Its just chaos, yet she keeps giving him chances, because he begs. And no, he didn't try to hurt himself, not while I was there. He knows I'd call the police the next time he does it, I've already promised him that.
  16. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter


    I am flat out going to say it. Your friend is a fool to stay with some one that has already caused so much damage, provokes fear and has caused direct harm. Saying sorry after the fact amends nothing. The line has been crossed into violence and out right criminal behaviour. This is called a predictor and is a nuclear bomb going off in dire warning. This not something to gamble on.

    It is all lovely and utopian to think they can change. Clinging onto the often misguided hope that the better nature of a person will shine through and love and patience will conquer all like life is some sort of ridiculous sappy TV show. Hope like that is a lovely thing that is until she is beaten into a coma and suffers a fatal brain bleed and dies. Worse is she goes back and is killed inside slowly to the point she believes abuse is what she deserves and self will is wrecked beyond repair. Getting them out at this point becomes next to impossible.

    This is my read on the situation based on what has been said. I don't mince my words either and it is my hope you share this tapestry of horror with your friend. it is what I have written it for. If I misconstrue anything however please feel free to correct me.


    Let me get this across. If eight year oldS playing at being Power Rangers can cause permanent lasting injury on one another. While not even being angry or on drugs and their fists not being licensed weapons. What do you think this person can do in one of his moods?

    Does your friend want to find out how it is you can beat a person to a torturous non damaging level and leave no marks at all? So when police roll round they are simply mocked as time wasters?

    Does your friend honestly think that if explosive rows are happening over trivial things that polite discourse is going to happen over more serious anger provoking things? Prior to even having had therapy or putting into practice what ever is taught?

    Would she like the alarming statistics on how domestic violence escalates?

    Would she like some images of battered women, that went back on the grounds of change and love. Only to wind up sad statistics? I mean the data on that is so intense it is hard to consider such a gamble worth it.


    All abusers engage in despicable levels of manipulation and control. A person is not property. This demonstrates an absolute control freak. That once they get their claws into your friend will steadily seek to isolate them. They will poison her mind to the point that even you and her family are viewed in a negative light.

    Being jealous just for being looked at is a sign of some one with zero maturity that can't at all be considered to have anything but their own self interest in mind. It demonstrates that person thinks of your friend as an object that is his and he needs like a heroin fix. Does your friend want to be an object? Where whether she gets a fierce beating is dependent on the way strangers look at her? Does she want to have to account for every action she makes. Because of some entirely irrational fear this person may lose her to any one with an ounce of common sense.

    Your friend has already demonstrated she is susceptible to rather dangerous psychological behaviours that many an abusers is versed in with out knowing it. In psychology it is well understood how to undermine a person with out even so much as balling a fist. This is demonstrated already by her thinking she is responsible in any way shape or form for this persons suicide.

    Let me clarify this. You friend is only responsible if she actively encourages this behaviour and supplies the method. it is genuinely considered that a person is responsible for their own life. Your friend has no legal duty of care, all they need say is maybe you should get some help I am going home now, then leave. There are no ramifications to that in a legal sense. She is not responsible, is she forcing him to do it? Not pandering to emotional black mail does not constitute force.

    In this case though this person is intentionally being manipulative. Lets look at the evidence. The person is threatening suicide to retain control which he is likely aware he losing. This not only shows a blatant disregard for life. Which also should have your friend questioning what view of her life does he have if he has such a low view of his own? But it also demonstrates a person that cannot take responsibility for his own life. So to expect him to be responsible for the well being of another life in this instance seems entirely absurd to me.

    The fact the person is willing to maim themselves in what seems be amounting to a temper tantrum. Demonstrates this person has a different view of pain and injury than your average person. This same distortion will likely apply to your friend also putting her at much greater risk. Violence and pain is normalised. Anger can take two forms, internal and external, this person is engaging in both and lashing out in both states. That alone is massively concerning.

    Her Boyfriend is a criminal.

    Assaulting some one in the heat of an argument is still a criminal act regardless of prosecution or not. It is also a predictor of future violence. A consistent pattern of repeated violence guarantees escalation short of intervention. It requires professional intervention not blind hope.

    Draining another persons bank account with out their permission is a criminal offence. It also shows no respect of the person. If theft is acceptable to this person what else will this person take at your friends expense? At what point are they stolen from till they have nothing left to give? Then what happens?

    Drug taking is criminal also, but beyond just that. It can entirely impair judgement in a person that already seems lacking in that regard. It exacerbates violent tendencies and paranoia as well as excites sexual needs. It is also damn expensive. With all the associated culture that comes with it.

    In my country wandering around with a switch blade is a criminal offence, I doubt this person has a hobby in whittling. It also means that violence is viewed in a rather lethal light. Two types of people carry lethal weapons. The afraid who would rather not use it if at all possible but are comforted by it being there. Then those who have no qualms with using it. Lethal fists plus a switch blade seems like some serious over kill to me.

    Threatening to kill a person generally is not considered acceptable and there seems to be something alarming genuinely sounding about this. It is also entirely illegal. If that had been said around me in my country they would find out what the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861 means for them. Maybe they could do with some consequences they can't punch and threaten their way out of. I have no idea what country you reside in so I have no idea what is relevant to your friend specifically.

    I would like to point out the following. Which comes from having assisted abuse victims to get access to relevant services. I saw what happened to those that procrastinated and denied their own wants and needs and happiness due to a false sense of guilt. It is not pretty.

    Let me tell you about a person I will call Shelly. She chose to stay out of guilt as if she owed this person something. She wanted to leave and common sense demanded she did so that was why she graced my door in the first place. Unfortunately fear and hope ruled and she simply withdrew as he promised to change and was now in therapy. I told her why not leave till he is done with therapy and can demonstrate for a time that he can use the techniques. I spoke to her at length and came damn close to getting her out of there and to her sisters. With the hope she could form her own boundaries work on he row ravaged mental health and set down the ultimatum of get clean and get a handle on the anger. Sadly as it does, the seeds of fear took over and sprouted. “Oh he may kill himself or hurt some one, I would feel terrible. I don't want to upset him or be an imposition on my sister.” I watched her talk herself out of it. Sadly the fear won and she vanished off my books.

    A time later I get to meet her. She was under the mental health act at the time enquiring about her rights. I had the grim task of explaining she could not leave. That refusal of food meant it would be forced upon her and pulling the fire alarm may result in criminal charges. Then got to listen to her sob about wanting to die.

    Not surprising really as her left eye had been rendered to mush at some point, her capability to produced children was destroyed. The scum bag got a custodial sentence but the damage was irrevocably done. She was depressed and suicidal because she could not have children and not only was one eye destroyed her cheek had a deep depression in it. So she also viewed herself as ugly and unlovable. I would like to say this had a happy ending but life is not a Disney film.

    A Mental Push

    Some times some people are irredeemable regardless of the effort a person is willing to put in. Or not worth the risk. Purely from what you have said your friend needs to put herself first and divorce herself of any ridiculous notion she is responsible.

    But here is a bit of a mental push. I want you to get your friend to ask herself these questions.

    1. In the time spent with him were you actually happy and content and felt you had a future?
    2. Do you know feel you stay because you want or because there are various reasons that keep you there?
    3. If you had to rate your level of fear of him what percentage would you set it at and what level would you like it to be at?
    4. If you had to rate your hope of friendship and a positive outcome how would you rate it?
    5. What do those various numbers tell you?
    6. If he did commit suicide and you had to rate your guilt level out of a hundred what number would you arrive at? Please keep all these numbers in mind. They will come up later.

    Now I want you to imagine a revolver in your mind. Bring it to life, shiny metal a visible chamber and iron sights. Now lay it upon a table, set up a chair for yourself and imagine yourself sat there.

    Now I want you to think on each bruise, each explosive bout of violence, each painfully cutting remark and expression of controlling behaviour that left you upset and trapped. For each one I want you to imagine a bullet. Place it on the table in a neat row. These bullets you have already been wounded by. They exist as fact as you have experienced them already. How many are you up to?

    Now I want to point out revolvers generally can only have 6 to 13 rounds chambered. On this imaginary table with your row of bullets have you gone beyond that limit? Have you had to create multiple rows? If you have, you are now going to need to imagine a revolver that can accommodate that number of bullets. That revolver is possibly starting to look rather alarming by this point.

    Okay next I want you remove a bullet for each time you felt happy and good with this person. Not drained, not fearful of when the content moments may end. Where love and hope out weighed fear and you felt nurtured not tiptoeing round fluctuating moods and drug come downs.

    In your head what does the chamber now look like? If some one had this gun pointed at you are the odds in your favour or outlook not so good?

    Now I want you to imagine sticking that loaded gun to your head. Because by staying when gut instinct is likely telling you not to, is just that. Then imagine spinning the chamber. Each spin is a new day and each day you must pull the trigger.

    Be aware that people that threaten to kill people have been known to kill those people. Be aware that those that engage in violence have been known to kill a person purely by accident. Know those people have gone on to maim and injure a person beyond medical science's capacity to fix. That is what is chambered. That risk to your life. This is not just about flesh and blood, but also sanity and collateral. Would you honestly consider pulling that trigger day after day?

    If so how many times are you willing to squeeze? Be aware as time continues the likelihood of firing a bullet increases exponentially until it is a guarantee. You already know they exist. It is just a case of how severe is the wound you will suffer this time? When is enough, enough? Will you be able to walk away at the point you realise that?

    Assuming you are willing to point it at your head and pull the trigger with wild abandon. I want you to now level it at your friend who came to this site seeking advice on your behalf. Who clearly cares for you, even risking her own safety. Would you pull it then? Should you hit a chambered round will that mean your friend is assaulted as they are perceived as threat that is taking you away from him? Will it be worse than that, where you wont get to see the aftermath. No it will be flashing lights and police tape and the guilt of your friend forever torn to bits inside. Maybe feeling they had not done enough. They had not tried hard enough to reach you and get through to you. As you become yet another sad statistic to be grieved over.

    Now level it at your family who clearly care about your well being. What if they move to protect their daughter and reap violence for their trouble. Will you pull the trigger on them as well? Will you risk the dreaded knock on the door and the words, 'You may want to sit down for this.'

    This is not just about you and your own guilt over what some one may or may not do. Who is frankly responsible for himself. Chuck is the revolver, it is his responsibility to fill the barrel with concrete. To empty all those rounds and not chamber new ones. It his responsibility to get a licence and learn to fire that gun at safe targets if he absolutely must pull that trigger. You are not blessed with mind control powers able to change a persons thought processes. You are not a professional and you are at risk and also risk all those around you that care about you.

    This is about those scenarios. If you had to apply a percentage of how much guilt you would feel should those scenarios play out, adding those percentages together cumulatively.. Forced to live on as a spectator. Witness to your inability to act in your best interest and the resultant consequences of failing to do so. What level of guilt would that now involve? What horrible number are you left with? How does that stack up with the other numbers? Which now has more weight?

    Please trust in your friend and family. They likely have much healthier intentions than this Chuck does. Please find the strength to get yourself out and use what ever help is available in your region to do so as safely as possible.

    Because I ultimately don't want to one day hear in future a most delightful tale of how you were beaten so bad that you pissed yourself, soaking your garments. Told to clean up the mess you made, while hungry eyes watch you with an awareness of complete power and control while you dutifully scrub the carpet before even thinking of changing your clothes.

    Please consider what has been said and do the right thing for yourself, the very thing gut instinct is likely busy telling you to do.

    Redbutterfly please keep me informed. Get your friend to write down those numbers so they are staring back at her in plain clear to see ink. Add in your own fears for her safety. Get her parents involved if you must and get them to chime in with their own fears. Apply greater pressure on her than the hold this scum bag person has. The risk of redemption and happy rainbows of love and patience conquering all is not worth the risk, in my limited estimation from all you have posted here. Seek advice from the various agencies that can help explain the best way to get out and minimise risk of provocation and retaliation. As well as what you can do in case those things occur. If you are in the UK I can directly help with that. If not maybe some one else has the knowledge you need.

    Please take care of yourself and be safe, be strong for you friend and be willing to upset her as a means to help her. I wish you both all the best.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2014
  17. DrownedFishOnFire

    DrownedFishOnFire Quieta non movere

    If she wants to leave she can call battered women hotlines for advice and tips. Pretty much alot communities have resources to help women in this type of situations.. ive never understood women like this who continue to allow themselves be battered over and over again. Materialistic things can be replaced who cares about ones belongings when ones life is in danger. I had a friend who was recently stabbed to death by his abusive girlfriend Last fall. Nothing can bring him back. No apologies can bring him back. Hes dead. Life isnt fair it only takes one stab to be fatal. Autospy said the first stab kiled him thats why he wasnt able to defend himself for multiple more stabs

    She has two working legs is not disabled can walk and talk is not blind she can walk away from it all if she wanted to really get out of situation.
  18. flowers

    flowers Senior Member

    I read some of what Adam posted. I would not state it as strongly as he. Although I am glad he posted what he did. Because it likely is THAT serious.

    Kara may clearly be facing her own death or permanant injury if she doesnt get safe. And as I said before getting safe may mean going someplace where he cannot get to her. This is as serious as I think you believe it is. Maybe she can come and read what was written. or you can copy it and show it. Because I think it is THAT important she hear it. Ultimatly she is the only one who can get herself safe. Unless she is underage and her family does it for her. I know you want her to get safe. keep going at trying to convince her. And please stay safe youself. He sounds like a ticking timebomb.
  19. redbutterfly

    redbutterfly Member

    Thank you everyone. I live in the USA Adam and I know he has already broken many laws, but Kara refuses to act on them, she says putting him in jail is the same as ruining his life since it will be permanently on his record. I think she thinks she can change him and will be magically released when he is a better person and that he will go off to find another girl and be happy. The end. As you said: a fairy tale.

    Thank you DrownedFishOnFire, I have talked to her about battered woman's hotlines, and she is too proud to call them. Sad, but Kara can be stubborn, she doesn't like others being in her business. She doesn't mind me doing this as it is confidential and very indirect/ impersonal. Besides he has the phone 99.9 percent of the time. He even sleeps with it in his boxer pockets sometimes, or tucked on his side of the bed.

    Flowers, her family doesn't see much of her, sadly. They have told her, many times, that he is no good and that she has to break away from him. I am allowed to see her more because I act like I am in between, and assure him I am not against him. I have actually talked him down from killing himself. I act like his friend. I do it for Kara. Though I feel like a low miserable human being for doing it.

    Adam, I read your post and it brought me to tears. I will try to find a way I can have hear read this thread, all of it. She needs to hear this. I am hoping this will wake her up.

    She called me yesterday, crying and angry, wanting to end the relationship, I could hear him pleading with her not to go in the background. He had done something to upset her, not sure what it was, but she said she "didn't want to be controlled anymore" and that he "needed to control his anger." I asked if he hit her and she said no. She said it was only during times when she was angry at him that she could leave him, because she then didn't care if he did killed himself. Then she hung up and called me back later whispering that she was still mad and wanted to leave but didn't know when she was going to be able to gather her things into her car and leave without him knowing, because she knew he'd never just let her leave. When he goes to work he takes her car. I told her I'd help her in anyway I can, I suggested to call the cops and have them stand there while she packed. She didn't want that. The problem eventually worked its self out, as it always does, they argue, fight, there is peace, then they argue, fight and there is peace.

    I spoke to her briefly today to see how she was feeling and asked if she still wanted to leave him still, now that she was clam she said she does but only after she knows he can let her go without destroying his life ( meaning not committee suicide, or throw his life away.) That if he was willing to let her go then she would go in a heartbeat.

    I think she is getting worse ( willing to put up with his mess) because he has been more passive lately. He will raise his voice then she will yell back at him louder, then he will bring his voice down and try to act calm. I say act because his mouth twitches and his eyes are manic, (as I saw on Monday night.) But when he asks her over and over again, can you please go back to being sweet, please go back to being sweet, go back to being SWEET! over talking her as she yells and she dose not compile he slowly cracks till he begins to yell again.

    He is reverting to a clam state as fallen2far said, and I try to tell her that him acting this way is not progress. He is only doing it to get what he wants and when she goes back to being passive with him he will go right back to being dominate and controllive. And not only that he will feel like he earned to right to be that way, all by pretending to be calm. I also told her, this yelling constantly back at him, this fighting just to be able to wear what she wants, or to get him to stop pinching her, bending her fingers back, squeezing her hand, slapping her hand away, cursing at her, its not worth it. It really isn't.

    I don't know, the time I thought I was going to have to show her this form he came. But I know if I ask that she comes to my house without him she wont show cause he will throw a hit like a baby till he gets his way, and she will give into him.

    She wants me and chuck to be friends and to get along, but I hate him, I've told her this. I only act nice around him because I want her to come over, so the few seconds he uses the restroom, or runs to the store, I can whisper something to her, or he won't mind the fact that she calls me while he is at work. Those are the only times I can really talk to her.

    And she has this false sense of security that she is in control of the situation when she yells and screams. He may appear to back down but he refuses to let her go, then tries to manipulate the situation to where he should receive praise and cuddles afterwards. I am so tempted to just call to police the next time they are arguing, while he still has that semi-fresh gash on his arm. But I am worried that by the time he get out of jail, the psycward, where ever they would take him, Kara will come out of her anger and might take him back when he begs to her at work. That's the only place she is forced to see him.

    It really seems like she would, just like last time.

    When she's angry she wants to let go, when she clams down she gives into his manipulative nature and her pity, and as you said Adam, she hold onto the hope that he has actually changed.

    The good news is I was able to read a little of this form to her when she was on break at work so she says she will be setting time-frames to see his progress. So far we are starting from today. We will see how long it lasts.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2014
  20. Petal

    Petal SF dreamer Staff Alumni SF Supporter

    She HAS to get away from him for her own safety and well-being. He is dangerous, is blackmailing her, controlling her and being intrusive. Please keep her away from him until at least there is an improvement in his behaviour and actions. HE is responsible for what HE does, she need not feel guilt. Perhaps she needs therapy too to deal with all thats happened?
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