Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by chjones21, Aug 23, 2011.

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  1. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    First I want to say thanks for the very interesting thread on antinatalism. Great thread, well argued and a strong debating position. The first thing of any interest that has been on here for a long time.

    Other than that, I was intending to post a reply and I saw the thread was CLOSED! As to why that is, I cannot understand. Suffice to say perhaps the line from Schopenhauer is absolutely right but I would never, myself, take the antinatalist position.

    In my now defunct reply - actually I am still shocked that someone closed a thread simply because they felt they weren't getting their point across as well as the person they were debating. If one has such a lack of ability to debate, why even read a soapbox thread? Just leave it to those who wish to debate, rather than interfere ineptly then get in a huff and slam the door - that'll show them how intelligent I am - and that I am right! Uh-huh.

    So in my defunct reply I thought about a third planet - planet Z where there is existence but no concept of pain and pleasure, all is just "sensation" and I was wondering where you would consider that in comparison to Planet Y (nothing existing) and Planet X (existence with pleasure and pain).

    I am loath to write a long reply because apparently I have stumbled into the soapbox, which is no longer a soapbox! And what is the point of putting these thoughts out there if someone is going to stifle the debate because they just don't get it, and they don't want to hear it anymore because it upsets their world view and therefore they want to put their hands over their ears and go "I can't hear you" to make it all, alright.

    C'mon moderators. I am shocked. Desperate.
  2. me myself and i

    me myself and i Account Closed

    Debates are healthy, interesting and worthwhile in pursuit of knowledge and understanding.
    When it gets personal and insults are traded then it no longer becomes a debate, but an arguement and one that is hurtful and nasty.
    Like you i have questioned the reasons these threads where closed.
    This site is a support site for people with troubles, being nasty to eachother is just plain wrong.
    Once this occurs i fully support the staff's decisions to close the thread as i personally feel it is better to say nothing than to say something nasty. ( Damn, i sound like me mother now)
  3. Speedy

    Speedy Staff Alumni

    ^I agree. Also, I think both of these threads you just started about why the threads were closed are better off being deleted and brought up in LtM. We can agree to disagree. :hug:
  4. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    Hello me, myself and I

    There is no need to trade insults, it is the sign of a weak arguing position however as far as I can see equally as many of the insults were coming Nernico's way however viz:

    and by the looks of it you are one of very few who believe this utter nonsense that you are spewing.
    you dont have any kids, and obviously your life is shit.

    Your coming across as a petilant child who cant get his own way so as a child you have resorted to the last defence which is to spit your dummy out and insult and wind up as many people as you can. You didnt want a debate all you wanted was everyone to agree with you

    Interestingly, the way I read his arguments was that he WAS constantly asking people to refute his idea viz:

    The reality of the human condition is difficult to bear but if an ability to see it for what it really is discourages people from inflicting unnecessary suffering on their own children by creating them then I think it's a fair exchamge. Convince me otherwise.

    etc. etc. etc.

    And I am not taking a position on the debate here. I am taking a position on why it was closed. My personal view is not pro-antinatalism (if I can say it that way). It was an interesting discussion and the point above - "you didn't want a debate, you just wanted everyone to agree with you" could definitely be levelled both ways.... plenty of people started to argue with nernico on the lines that life was good and it justified having children and when he refused to agree with that premise equally simply felt that if he wouldn't agree with them, they no longer wanted to debate it. Wouldn't you say?

    I do not think the argument had degenerated that much but if you will argue that it had become a "slanging match" (I disagree but) a. that means the thread would have died of its own accord because it is no longer interesting and people would stop posting and b. BOTH sides were simply refusing to engage with the argument intellectually and were simply restating their own view again and again and c. if it comes down to people using ad-hominems and 'slanging' people then it is fair to assume that they have lost the argument.

    However in this case the argument has not been fully explored at all, in my view! There are many more sides to this argument or debate that could be looked at, that would be interesting to consider. There is the question of what is sensation - how do we ascribe and why do we ascribe certain sensations qualities of pleasure and pain. Are those entirely subjective qualities? Can any action be considered truly selfless? What does altruism mean in this material world? etc. etc.

    There was a whole host of debate to had and this IS the soapbox forum. As for nernico, he may have insulted others --- all I saw him saying is repeating his own premise but directly to people, i.e. he started by saying "having children is selfish and immoral" and it is hardly throwing a huge insult at someone in the argument by then saying to someone who has had children "I consider your action selfish". Clearly, by default, he considers that! That is the premise of his argument. You can't even really consider that an ad-hominem because it is the basis of the debate that is occurring. If he were to have said well, I think you are ugly and you stink and therefore your argument is stupid - that is clearly a pointless ad-hominem, that is not saying anything connected to the argument and IS 'slanging'.

    I have written a letter to the moderators and I recognise that this site IS a site to support others BUT this part of the site is the soapbox. If you are of a sensitive disposition then there is a point to say "If you can't stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen". There are reams of fora up there which are presumably excellently moderated because they cater to those who are feeling vulnerable and sensitive.

    I, rarely rarely post up in the suicide threads because I know that I will, in no way, be as good as some of the moderators in helping people who have desperate need of gentle and sensitive reassurance, as much as I would want and have the desire to support them - there is every chance that I could say something that would or could be misinterpreted or will hit an 'emotional' wrong note.

    Equally however, is it not fair to give those who express their concern and angst with the world in a more intellectual manner a place where they can openly debate these issues???? In a forum that suits their mentality, where it is not about emotion or being sensitive but about logic, thought, debate, thesis antithesis synthesis!

    Why should there be no space allowed for that? Not everyone is the same and those who deal with the conflict of life in a mental rather than heartfelt manner have (or rather) had perhaps a space here.... we are clearly all suicidal or we wouldn't be on this site. We all have our problems and our issues with the complexities of life. This space is for those who deal with them in a Platonic way - question, question, question, question --- or as the Hindus put it not that, not that, not that. And now, it seems, it is being moderated by someone who wants to turn it into yet another "emotional" space. Every other thread/forum on this site is ALREADY dedicated to that - why do you need this one too!
  5. me myself and i

    me myself and i Account Closed

    Well, my first response in the post was given with warmth and my personal opinion, thats debating, right?
    I was called, stupid, ignorant, selfish and self-centred among other words.
    Yet i made no challenge to the OP or his words, merely said what i believe.
    It was not just the OP that became rude, to say any different would be to lie.
    However, insults did occur, so the thread was closed.
    We all have a right to our opinions, but we also have to afford the right of respect to anothers opinion by not insulting them.
    Otherwise we should remain silent and keep our thoughts to ourselves.
    Emotions will always give conviction to opinion, the closed thread proved this.
    But it is how we control those emotions, thats when balance occurs and knowledge and understanding is gained.
    I learn everyday and will continue to do so.
    Ps, Hello to you too! My corresponding thread was also closed, although i felt it had much more debate to be had, i also realise that it would inflame and perhaps give fuel to a fire of nastiness, so i respect and back the decision to close the thread.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2011
  6. Speedy

    Speedy Staff Alumni

    Dear chjones21,

    We can agree to disagree about whether or not the threads should have been closed. However, we can agree that staff members decided that the threads needed closing. They look out for the betterment of this site, and I respect their decision.

    All the best,

  7. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    Hello Me, Myself and I

    I was called, stupid, ignorant, selfish and self-centred among other words.

    But all you need to do is point out why you think that is not the case. You don't NEED to have an emotional response to that and walk out and slam the door saying I don't want to talk to you. You can have an intellectual reply. You can say, "You say that I am ignorant on the basis that I have had a child and the reason you think this is X, the reason why I think it is NOT stupid, ignorant or selfish to have a child is Y" rather than getting in a tizzy.

    The fact is the original poster believes that it is stupid, selfish and self-centred to have a child and you do not. Then just work out what is the difference between your two viewpoints.

    You think it is not stupid, selfish and self-centred to have a child because....

    He thinks it is stupid, selfish and self-centred because .....

    As Mr Alex says above if you simply cannot agree, then agree to disagree and stop posting to each other. You can say, I cannot express in a way that you can seem to understand why I think it is in fact clever, altruistic and ultimately selfless to have a child. There are a myriad of arguments you could put to support your point! Some parts of your argument may however be experiential. You can say that too: These things are difficult almost impossible to understand unless you have been in the position of having a child and as he will not be/is not in that position you have to leave it as an 'agree to disagree' whilst others can take up the debate from their point of view.
  8. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    But Alex that makes it impossible to debate a subject where someone has chosen a decision that someone else disagrees with a priori. This original premise was that it is immoral to have a child ergo the poster is clearly going to attribute immorality to anyone who posts that they have a child. He cannot do otherwise, can he? Or he is being hypocritical. Perhaps he could have phrased it thus "You have a child. IN MY VIEW that decision makes you stupid, self-centred and whatever it was". But really in a forum such as this, this is a given that the poster is talking from HIS viewpoint.

    He can't exactly say well, because you have had a child you are NOT stupid, selfish and so on but EVERYONE ELSE is.
  9. Speedy

    Speedy Staff Alumni

    If you have issues with how this sub-forum is moderated, there are many forums out there for differently-moderated debates. :hug: If you would like me to find some for you, I'd happily oblige. If you're interested in my offer, please let me know and I will find ones that look promising for what you are looking for. Thanks, Mr. A
  10. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    However, we can agree that staff members decided that the threads needed closing. They look out for the betterment of this site, and I respect their decision.

    And I do not respect this particular decision. I believe it is a mistaken decision, hence the reason for flagging it up! Staff members are no more infallible than the Pope. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone can reconsider their position and indeed no-one should go around thinking that they are infallible and right one hundred percent of the time, either.
  11. thedeafmusician

    thedeafmusician Staff Alumni

    Both threads were closed for a reason. It was not an invitation to start up another one.

    Having now read the thread, what started out as a potential debate had progressed into namecalling and flaming and it is for this reason that it was closed.

    Thread closed.
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