No parole for 18 years in 'honour killing'

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by cloud9, Jun 30, 2010.

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  1. cloud9

    cloud9 Well-Known Member

    It saddened me to read this. Why do immigrant parents have to be so unrealistic? She didn't deserve this. Why was she robbed of her chance to finish school, to start a career, to fall in love, to have a family, to pursue her dreams.

    This is a link to the "Agreed statement of facts" surrounding her death. Tells you of the events leading up to her murder.

    I hope she's in a better place now. :(
  2. An Angel in Black

    An Angel in Black Well-Known Member

    In particular, she told her Vice Principal that she no longer wanted to dress traditionally like the other women in her family and she did not wish to wear a hijab. Aqsa told her Vice Principal that she was afraid to tell her father that she no longer wanted to wear a hijab.. Quoted directly from the background leading up to the offence. <Mod Edit:Music:Offensive>This cant possibly be related to islam its such a peaceful religion right? <Mod Edit:Music:Offensive>
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2010
  3. An Angel in Black

    An Angel in Black Well-Known Member

    honor my ass :mad:
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2010
  4. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Gasp! They struck out against a cultural monstrocity! How evil of them. I mean, it's not like the western world ever killed a few homosexual/black/jewish/latino/asian women. Ever. At all.

    Different world views. Although a crime is a crime, obviously, this is a cultural thing. Some, like the murderers, just take it a few steps "too far". Their feelings for her "wrong doings" were strong to the point of vigilantism.
    She could have, y'know, not done what she did? If you're scared of, say, walking in a dark alley at night, then you don't do it. Or, say, you live with a drunk dad who beats you for not giving him his beer on time. Would you deny him his beer? Maybe if you could fight back or escape. If not, you wouldn't.
  5. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    I really do hope your a troll.
    Especially considering the amount of people who have suffered the abuse from alcoholic parents on this site, you really make me pity you.
  6. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Why? Because I'm saying the smart thing is to do what he says when you can't fight back? To give in instead of suffering further harm? Or do you wish that people stand up, only to be smashed back down, for the sake of standing up?
  7. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    Do you agree that honor killings are justified or any killings rationalized by a culture(including western cultures death penatly)?
  8. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"

    But honestly, are you really so reprehensible as to suggest that people who are abused are at fault for not pleasing their abusers? If so you really make me sick.
  9. Dahak

    Dahak Well-Known Member

    This poor girl didn't have to die because she didn't want to wear stupid clothing and follow barbaric rules.Sometimes i think it would be best if we just nuke countries and torture people like her brother and father who think like that.She was an indiviual who had a right to act like one,screw anyone who says otherwise, she didn't have to please anyone.
  10. mulberrypie

    mulberrypie Well-Known Member

    i see krem's point but that doesn't justify what happened in any way, shape or form
  11. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    I said they have their reason, just like anyone has. I never said it was "right". (Killing for wearing/not wearing a type of clothing? Smart.)
    No. I'm saying that they'd be at fault for getting more hurt than they otherwise would. It's not their fault their father/spouse/mother/whatever is as they are, but it's up to them to deal with it, or at the very least try to minimise the damage done to themselves. If a guy is going to steal your wallet, and is physically superiour, do you really fight for it? If you did, and he seriously injures you, you'd be at fault (Not fully, but you could have prevented said injury by folding in).
    Yes. They kill because people don't do as they say. Let's kill them because they don't do as we say. Brilliant!
  12. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    Let me rephrase for you. How do you feel about people whose culture is situated somewhere else in the world, who then come to a western cultured country and act within their cultures obligations/freedoms regardless of how it contradicts with the countries laws/culture that they are currently in?

    So you think it's better to submit today, so you can outsmart and succeed tomorrow? If that's it I defiantly see where you are coming from. You don't rush a dude whose got a gun pointed at you, figuratively or metaphorically. Unless you are trying to make a point to people outside of yourself.

    She was young though and in-experienced. I don't know if these concepts could apply to her, considering the mentality she has lived in as and through her entire life, and only recently found her own will power to resist it. She might have been under the false assumption that the impact of the culture she resided in would have kept those destructive rationalities from her families culture from surfacing, so she decided to act out believing that her family wouldn't go as far as their culture permits them to.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2010
  13. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    She could have, y'know, not done what she did? If you're scared of, say, walking in a dark alley at night, then you don't do it. Or, say, you live with a drunk dad who beats you for not giving him his beer on time. Would you deny him his beer? Maybe if you could fight back or escape. If not, you wouldn't.

    Oh, I see so all those black slaves who stood up to their abuse in an attempt to put an end to slavery - those Rosa Parks who WOULD sit down in the whites only bit of the bus, they should have just taken it ... their abusers/slave owners didn't like that uppityness one bit. They should have just stayed slaves, right? And if they made a fuss and some whitey decided to lynch them for it, well sheesh they deserved it right because ya know, they knew it was coming, right?? Nice to see where you would've stood in the era of slavery/apartheid in America.

    I don't think you will be the first person I would turn to if I was looking for moral advice on what to do, EVER.

    Your post absolutely sickens me.
  14. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    I think relating an culture being brought into western culture that imposes borderline slavery to the widespread accepted culture of slavery in the America in the past is pretty different. One was accepted as a whole by the whole nation, the other is more of a introduction of another culture on a small scale that is not accepted by the masses. But the fear of discrimination and freedom of expression seems to prevalent, to the point as to where we are deciding as to how far our tolerance as a society will go to religion(s) and culture(s).

    But I suppose the point remains, if that was me, and my parents dictated my life, I would rebel against it. Though, between slavery and her situation, it's somewhat like she has a window to escape when she becomes the legal age in NA(and she'd be aware of this to a degree), where as a slave would have grown up and "known" his/her life with no escape. It was just accepted. There's a small but significant difference.

    Krems post is looking at one point of view, not all the points of view I think. Unless he doesn't consider enduring dictation through your childhood a serious issue. Which would be interesting considering the damage that does to people and how so many people on here can directly relate to being squeezed and molded into something that they choose not to be, and being denied the freedom to think of newer and grander things.
  15. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    The point is that she didn't have freedom. She feared what her dad might do, which tells us she knew she thought it to be wrong. And yet she did it.

    And, no, never take moral advice from me. It's better to be "free" and in the hospital, than doing what others say and, y'know, not being in the hospital, right? Of course there are limits, but a dress code? Fetching things? Not doing minor things? That's not worth it. If it were 24/7 slavery, I can understand why someone would rather go down "standing up", so to speak. But this is not slavery. This is refusing to accept the culture of one's parents, to deny your father what he sees as "right". Overreaction on his part, we all say, obviously. I mean, how often does a western dad kill his son for being homosexual/atheist/goth/whatever?
    I feel it to be silly, actually. But, by all means, do it. But stop doing it when you're breaking the law, or risking being assaulted.

    And, yes, dictation is a problem. But do you know what's worse? Violence. I, and anyone who's not watched too many Braveheart movies, would tell you that it's better to do what your parents say than "rebel". Expecially when you actually think it might lead to physical confrontation. (Of course, if your parents are getting you to break the law, you would reconsider. But not tell it to their face. Hop over to the local law enforcement's office, and explain your situation. That's what they're there for- Upholding the law against criminals.)

    (Off-topic, slightly)
    I sigh at teenagers, who believe that their parents telling them to do chores, or who won't allow them to get piercings/get drunk/go to a party is remotely like slavery. It's spitting in the face of anyone who has endured it.
  16. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    She feared what her dad might do, which tells us she knew she thought it to be wrong.

    Hang on a minute. She didn't think it to be wrong. What she presumably thought was wrong was having to wear a form of dress which she thought symbolised her oppression.

    Or at least that is what I would have thought. So she wanted to break away from that oppression. She opted to stand up for herself and the result was she was murdered because in fact, she NEVER was considered an individual and never would have been. And if later she had refused to marry the man her father had picked for her - the result would have been the same. And if she had run away, thereby bringing dishonour on her father - the result would have been the same the moment they could find her.

    She was trying to protect herself by telling authorities when she was still in a position where she was expected at school every day, for example. Where she couldn't just be "disappeared" by telling others if they even bothered to ask that she had gone to Pakistan to get married, for example.

    She tried to escape a violent, brutal, misogynistic, hate-filled father who was obviously never, ever going to let her escape or live her own life. So yes, she would have been a slave --- as much as any 19th century slave as I see it.
  17. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    It's better to be "free" and in the hospital, than doing what others say and, y'know, not being in the hospital, right?

    I don't know how often a Western parent kills their child for being gay, I have absolutely no clue at all. Don't think I have heard of it in England as far back as I can remember but that doesn't mean to say --- but I would be absolutely AMAZED if someone killed their child for being a goth. Really - no, I can't see that. At all. I mean that would have to be some sort of freak parent.

    But your attitude of just go along with the abuse/restriction of your rights. Then it never ends. To me, your attitude is similar to the one the Jews must have had. Oh, they have taken away some of rights --- well, that's okay. Oh they are making us wear a yellow star, well, mustn't complain. Oh well, they are taking us on trains to concentration camps (where we well outnumber the guards) but lets not make a fuss. What?

    No, the moment it starts. The first moment it starts. And I don't care whether that is an abused wife or a whole relgion of people. You stand up against it. Come on!

    All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing - Edmund Burke

    Those who would choose security over freedom, deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin.

    All those (including this girl here), all those who have stood up to oppression and violence and humiliation and injustice and degradation from Martin Luther King, to Gandhi, to the Suffragettes, to the unknown, unnamed Black slaves in America who marched and protested, to the women in Iran who are protesting now - each and every single one of those people does NOT deserve what they get (a lynching, a death, a hospital visit) unless what they get is what they deserve ie freedom and respect and dignity and equality.

    Each and every one that fights for that, makes the world a better place for countless others - they are, without doubt, heroes of the highest order. Not cowards, not those who won't stand up, not those who will take servility and injustice as their due. And all credit to each and every one of them.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2010
  18. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    Typo. Was suposed to be "tells us she knew HE thought it to be wrong".

    Also, you're going from place A to place C without stopping. Do you expect that he would control her life should she do what he demanded of her until she was 18? She could always go to the police, get a court order, etc. Some sort of witness protection.

    Yes, the rebellions we're all fond of started with people saying 'no' to injustice. But there's a difference, you see, between not being a slave, not being treated like shit by the "superiours", and surviving violent people. One is a large-scale problem, the other is personal madness. Yes, many women are "opressed" by being forced to dress in a certain way and respect their husbands/"masters". But how many have been murdered because of it? Not that many. Why? Because they know when not to resist. Plus, not all of them feel this is "subjugation". Some of them actually respect their husbands, and find this is a good way to do it. Plus all the social "rules". If some foreigners would claim that forcing people to wear trousers was evil, and then some family would move there, but the father would demand of them to wear trousers, but this girl decides that she wants more freedom to express herself, and thus goes out butt-naked. And he snaps. Eerilie similar, it is. Yes, he broke the law, and thus should be punished etc. But she could've avoided it. So many things she could've done. Wearing pants was one of them.

    And that Franklin quote is, to me, such utter nonsense. I'd much rather have the safety of rules than the freedom of the forest. To have police there to stop harm from being done, or bring justice. Complete freedom is anarchy. And with anarchy, there is nothing stopping some stranger from doing worse things to you, than that police writing you a ticket for speeding does.
    The point is that the parents get upset over it. Extremely. Some even go violent. Some even kill them. Not many, but it happens.
    How can you know what would've happened? You're basing this on nothing. For all you know, she could flee her home and "get away with it". She could convince her father, unlikely as it sounds. She could get the police. Oh, and she was an individual, and was considered one. That she was killed over her choise is proof of that.

    MY POINT IS THIS. This could've been avoided, and thus she is partially at fault. Yes, her father was in the wrong. Yes, she was "opressed". But that doesn't change the fact that she could've avoided her fate. And if you think she did the right thing, then you should be saluting her for doing so.
  19. Dahak

    Dahak Well-Known Member

    I wasn't serious about the nuke comment but let me say that those who blame the victim are on the same level as those whom kill and torment innocent people.This poor girl probably didn't have anyone to talk to or anywhere else to go so to blame her or say she could have prevented it is bs when you don't know here life.

    I just want to say that this was no way her fault in any shape or form, no way she could have done anything in that misogyny envirment with those lunatics.I can't beleive her piece of crap brother wanted parole for a cold blooded murder, i hope he rots in prison forever,honor killing my ass.

    Maybe we should just start blaming victims, lets start blaming women for being raped, lets start blaming little kids for being kidnapped and murdered,lets start blaming innocent people for being murdered.I mean they could have prevented their fate by doing this or that right.Frelling ridiculous!
  20. UnkelHeit

    UnkelHeit Well-Known Member

    Dahak, I'm so glad to hear you weren't serious about that comment, not knowing your sense of humor. Sadly that's exactly how some feel.
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