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Okay, no offense, but why try and make people live?

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by Ross PK, Feb 2, 2007.

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  1. Ross PK

    Ross PK Member

    When they're obviously suffering so much that they'd rather die?

    I know people have the best interests at heart, but isn't it more cruel to stop someone from commiting suicide because things are that painful for them than actually helping them to die?

    A controversial subject I know, but one worth looking into and discussing.
  2. bumper

    bumper Well-Known Member

    I don't think that is necessarily true. On the surface, they might THINK they are doing it in the 'best interest' of the suicidal person, but deep down they are only doing it for themselves. They offer "help" because they are afraid of losing that person. They are afraid of the hurt and guilt they might feel if that person commits suicide.

    The people on here offer "help" because it makes them feel good about themselves. It makes them feel like they are making a difference (in their own lives).

    But it's nothing more than a horrendously selfish and hurtful act.
  3. Scum

    Scum Well-Known Member

    Actually, no one stops anyone else from suicide, apart from the psychs and social workers that section people.

    Anyone else just offers alternatives to think about, different options, maybe some hope, etc.

    Ultimately it is either the person that stops him/herself, or a doctor.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2007
  4. JohnADreams

    JohnADreams Well-Known Member

    Because, in a lot of causes, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Hate to use a cliche like that but it's often true.
  5. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    ^^^^ I agree ^^^^ no one can stop anyone from dying really not anyone, people can offer hope, a shoulder to cry on and other options. If someones gunna die, they will, noone can watch someone at all times. But there are ways to get help it's just everyones body and thinking and problems are different so sometimes it's hard, but we can over come this and what a lot of us want is peace, but everythime I realise I have improoved or I am trying or I am in recovery on another part I feel a little bit of peace and the better you get the more you feel it.
  6. Ruby

    Ruby Well-Known Member

    I guess people prevent suicide because they're hopeful that the sufferer can improve and be happy again.

    Although, I hold the believe that everybody has a right to die at any given time. Why should people be forced into a hospital for 'treatment' when they clearly don't want help. Being sectioned, for me, was one of the worst experiences of my life. In all honestly, I'd rather have been left to commit suicide.

    It's almost as though it's acceptable for somebody with a physical illness to want to die (Euthanasia) because people acknowledge that they are in pain.
    Why is it so different for depression or any other mental health problem? I don't believe that suicide is a selfish act. Why can't people see the suffering that people with depression experience? Depression is probably one of the most debilitating illness'. It has ruined my life to the point that I want to give up. It's HORRIBLE. It's changed my whole view on life.
  7. noplacetogo

    noplacetogo Well-Known Member

    If a person was determined to kill themselves, they wouldn't tell anyone. Those who say it, won't do it. Those who say it, want help. So if someone tells you they want to die, what they are really saying is, "help me". No one can turn a blind eye to that. Paying heed to this call for help is not a matter of selfishness nor selflessness, but rather a matter of humanity.
    If a suicidal person really wanted a blind eye, they'd go out in silence.
  8. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    :unsure: :cry:
  9. Ruby

    Ruby Well-Known Member

    Big assumption. I agree with you to a certain extent, but it's not always the case. Some people have expressed how depressed, hopeless, worthless they are and how much they want to die and still go on to commit suicide. Sad but true. However, I don't think those people genuinely want(ed) to die. For somebody who is completely hopeless and set on doing it, they will. They won't tell anybody because they don't want help. People will know what methods are more harmful. I think that the misunderstaning is with a genuine suicide attempt and an act of desperation from somebody who is seeking help.
  10. Ignored

    Ignored Staff Alumni

    There's an awful lot of generalisations going on here, over something which is a very complex and personal situation for each person. It's ridiculous to say that those who say they're going to do it won't, and in fact on any literature you'll read on suicide they'll say the same thing... people who commit suicide mostly DO talk about it first. I've no doubt that some people's attempts are not serious, insofar as the people don't actually want to die, but anyone attempting suicide runs the risk of completing and they know that so neither can it be said that it's just a "cry for help". And anyhow, if someone is needing attention that much that they would risk their lives then I say give them the fucking attention!!!
  11. marie2006

    marie2006 Member

    Not necessarily true. My friend killed herself and had told us for a good two years she wanted to die. I am open with people that I want to die, and I have attempted three times so far. Often you tell in the subconscious hope somebody can/will help you, and it doesn't always work.
  12. Wonderstuff

    Wonderstuff Staff Alumni

    I agree with Shygirl and Marie, I too have read that most often, people who kill themselves have talked about it first. If only people had taken them seriously - which they didn't, probably because they believe the same as you, the person who said that they're not going to do it - they might be alive.

    This post PISSED ME OFF. I realise that might not be particularly constructive, so I apologise. But it did make me angry. There are lots of reasons why people want to help others. And yes, those do include a lot people who are doing it simply because they do not want to lose the other person. But I believe it is a fundamental part of most people's human nature to want to help people in pain. We know first hand what it's like to suffer like that, and we want to try to help other people to get through it. You think it would be better to leave them to die? Here's something to think about: MOST SUICIDAL PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO DIE. They just want the pain to stop. They only want to kill themselves because they don't think that's possible and they don't want to carry on the way they are!!
    Is it selfish to try to hold on to people, to try to postpone their attempts or whatever, in an attempt to give them time and hope enough to realise that things CAN get better? I don't think so.
    As for the "physical illness" comment made by Ruby: Many people who have never been suicidal, simply don't think there is any justification for killing oneself. My mother is like that; she always says "There's nothing as bad as that!" But what she doesn't realise is that it can FEEL that bad. She's not big on feelings.
    Anyway, aside from that, the point I was going to make, was that the people who condone suicide of the physically ill, will only do so in the case of TERMINAL illness. If a person is going to die soon anyway, and it will just be a lot of pain for them until they finally do die...why make them suffer through it? That's the logic. But depression does not fall into this category, because in most cases, it is not terminal. (well it can be argued that it is NEVER terminal and death is just a side-effect of it. But that's a whole other argument). What I guess i mean is, not *permanent*. Depression is an illness which is, the majority of the time, treatable. Would you allow someone with a bad dose of flu to kill themselves? No. This is because you know it's treatable, it will pass. However, at the time, it's easy to believe that things will never get better because you feel so damn awful...And while I know depression is nowhere near comparable to flu, as it makes you feel even worse by getting into your head and, as you so rightly said Ruby, changing your entire outlook on life...euthanisia for depressives is mad, because people show that it can be treated.
  13. Ruby

    Ruby Well-Known Member

    Sorry if I sounded negative, you kinda lose hope after three years of therapy/hospitalisation and medication.
  14. TG123

    TG123 Well-Known Member

    Hi Ruby,

    No offense taken, and I think you asked a good question. I'll share my views on this, some are maybe a bit different than from some in the forum, others are the same.
    - I remember what it was like to want to take my own life. Feeling hopeless and scared and alone and wanting to end it all is a horrible feeling. God was able to help me overcome these feelings and I'm glad I did b/c when all is said and done I'm happy I didn't follow my determination to kill myself during these darkest moments.
    - I feel sad when others die and do not believe that suicide is a way out. So like others I do try to convince people not to kill themselves but instead encourage them to keep fighting because in so many cases things do get better.
    - I do not believe that suicide will bring happiness or peace or hope to the person who does it, or to his/her relatives.
    - I believe that many people who kill themselves do so b/c they see no hope and feel alienated- that is why I wanted to do it and tried a few times. I believe that having hope and people you can talk to and care about you is helpful and can help people get back on their feet.

    - I also believe that God can give us eternal happiness and if we place our faith in Him we will never feel like there is no hope for us. He will help us get through these struggles even though it will still be hard. He loves us so much that Jesus died for us on the cross, and if we believe in Him and follow Him, He will help us get through this life and will provide us eternal joy in Heaven after we die.
    Putting my faith in Jesus helped me and with God at my side I know that even in my darkest moments (and I have had them, very recently in fact) I am never alone or without hope or without love or without a friend. He has helped me overcome many struggles and is helping me overcome.
    I would like others to know about Him and put their faith in Him. They will never again be hopeless or completely alone.

    These are some reasons why I try to help people make the decision to live instead of suicide.

    Cristo Vive!
    - Tomasz
  15. noplacetogo

    noplacetogo Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Was trying to be concise. I should've elaborated instead of posting such a bold and generalized statement. So let me elaborate: what i meant was, at the moment someone tells you they want to kill themselves, that is the moment they are crying out for help. Those who are saying it at the moment, don't really want to do it right then, they want for you to save them somehow. this is what was meant. Those who say it, won't do it, just yet. Those who say it want help.

    I am definitly not trying to say that people who say they want to die will never do it. I'm no fool. I do however believe that those who say it, desperately want to be helped and do not really want to die. It is when this help is not met that silence takesover and the option of death becomes a reality for them. I am no stranger to this desperation. I know that when I utter words of suicide, I am hoping with all my might that someone will listen and help.

    To try and make my point more clear; I was making the statement to answer Ross PK's question: Why try and make people live?
    If no one said a word before wanting to commit suicide, there would not be a chance to make anyone live, and this discussion would not exist. Because those people who tell us they want to die are asking for help, we simply have to try and help them. Our humanity will not stand idle at the knowledge of a loved one wanting to take their own life. Imagine if you told someone you wanted to die and they handed you a cyanide capsule. Is this why you told them?? No, you are hoping that this person has enough humanity to try and save you.

    One last thing, if you were truly looking for ways to do it, you don't go to a pro-life site and ask for methods. You ask for methods at a pro-life site because you are hoping with all your might that someone will listen and help.
  16. TLA

    TLA Antiquitie's Friend

    As normal for this forum, there is a wide variety of thoughts. I love to hear the various views so it does not irritate me at all to see the diversity. Before I started reading these posts I started to think the answers depends on each person's pain and their own hurts. We all come from our own pathways.

    I too wonder why people encourage me to live and improve things. It is my decision. I agree with that. I know that others can see it differently cuz I am in the fire and they are looking in. It can give perspective for us to hear another point out something, to help me see it. I need to know someone somewhere cares about me. If I did not have a son, I would have no hesitation on taking my life.

    "Why should people be forced into a hospital for 'treatment' when they clearly don't want help."

    People want to 'save you', okay I get that....but, some of us do not want to be saved. We don't want to keep fighting or trying. After you have been in the hospital over 10 times, what else is there? The whole picture needs to be looked at.

    noplacetogo--I agree to some areas of your thinking...I do not tell people my plans. I will not call the hotline. I will not be handcuffed cuz my brain is ill. On the other side of the coin, I really don't want to die.

    Depression is a treatable illness, yes that is the good news. BUT, at times it can continue for 20+ years. Oftentimes you have additional issues bothering your personality (past abuse, negative family members, poor coping skills, traits of destructive behavior, self harming, etc)

    Maybe the treatment that you use causes negative side effects. Possibly your life situation (who you live with, where you live, if you have support or not) will either help you heal or waste away more.

    It does get me red in the face when people carelessly tell you to "get a job, and move on with it" or "come on, get over it"....like we want to be in the hole down there where everyone *****. One day I am going to have a GOOD comeback to throw in their face.

    I agree with Ruby that people do not know the depth of pain that we suffer from. Depression has changed my life too much. I cannot go back to being who I was 5 years ago. I do not know what it is like to have heart pain...
    others do not know the votex of darkness in me. Or how many tears I have cried in my whole life.
    People always tell me if you suicide, you are weak, selfish. Thats their opinion. :tongue:

    Ruby has a great point--"Why is it so different for depression or any other mental health problem? I don't believe that suicide is a selfish act. Why can't people see the suffering that people with depression experience? Depression is probably one of the most debilitating illness'. It has ruined my life to the point that I want to give up. It's HORRIBLE. It's changed my whole view on life."
    I bet you that if depression had a blood test or a cure rate, then more belief would be given to our suffering.

    PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! OR they want to pretend there is nothing really wrong at all.

    My question: Why does it take a suicide to wake people up?
  17. Ruby

    Ruby Well-Known Member

    TLA :smile:

    I guess deep down I don't actually want to commit suicide. I just want to get 'help'; which seems hopeless as I spent months in a psychiatric hospital. I've been sectioned and was arrested because I walked out of the hospital (still haunts me now, three years later). I've been on various medications and the only one that seemed to help (risperdal) caused high prolactin levels so I had to be taken off it. I've had therapy for three years and NOTHING seems to work. I think hospitalisation made me worse. I sat in a plain, dull room all day reading endless magazines and literally praying for visiting hour. How is that meant to be beneficial? I can't see any hope because I've tried almost everything. When will it end? I don't think it's selfish of me to feel suicidal. I don't see the point in 'existing' anymore, because that's what I do, I 'exist', I don't live. Happiness? I can't even remember what it felt like. Feeling depressed would have a major effect on a healthy persons life, but to me it almost feels normal.

    If somebody had just had their appendix removed or had broken a leg and complained about their pain, people would understand and show the greatest sympathy. Is it like that for a depressed person? No, it's not. We get called miserable and told to 'get over it'. I think such lack of understanding makes the depressed person feel worse. We don't want people to pity us or offer us useless advice. We just want people to listen and acknowledge that we're in pain and we suffer. I think peoples ignorance always comes from the word 'depression' as it's used so often by people who are just having a 'bad day'. It annoys me, it really does.
  18. TLA

    TLA Antiquitie's Friend

    Ruby, I think you may have E. S. P., you stated my gripes very clearly.:wink:

    I was told that I was just making excuses for myself. I wanted to punch them for saying that. I think others should understand, but maybe not until it happens to them. Like with my hearing loss, my dad could never comprehend, until he start to lose some of his hearing. My mother-in-law takes medication for her stroke and blood. Father-in-law takes meds for his heart & maybe anti-depressants too. Yet, my ex-husband could not understand my needs were similar too.

    I can see some people saying it is selfish to the children. They grow up wondering and missing. But same for murdered people or drowning accidents.
    We don't think it is selfish for we are the ones hurting. :rolleyes:
    How is it selfish? thats another thread.
  19. One who listens..

    One who listens.. Well-Known Member

    Total agreement with Moon on that one. Pissed me right the hell off. That is far too much of a general statement. You can't presume to know the minds of another person, but I'll get back on subject of WHY I try to make people live, and in the course of that, I might end up pointing back up at that quote.

    The reason I do what I do here, to help others, Is to make sure no one goes through the shit I went through. I spent the hardest three years of my life, physical and mental abuse constant, and my want to die always present alone. I had no one to talk too, no one to comfort me, and I didn't even think to turn to the internet for help. It left a permenant mark in my life, although at this point I can look back and be glad I made it past that.

    That said, I don't help people to make myself feel better, (Although it does do that.) I help people so they dont have to be alone in a time when they need someone most. I would indeed feel guilty and hurt if that person killed themselves, but the first thing I think when someone is telling me they are going to go through with it isn't, "Oh no! I might be injured by this! Best stop them!"
    The help I offer isn't to make myself feel better, or make me feel like I've done a good deed, (Although, again, it does give me that feeling.) But that isn't WHY I do it. I do it to help someone.

    And calling that, a simple act of human kindness, and compassion, a "horrendously selfish and hurtful act" Has got to be one of the most infuriating things I have EVER heard someone say.

    Hmm... I think I may have ranted a tad right there. Curses, lost control of my brain, and it ran over the keyboard with my fingers. Well, to make my final point ;

    DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Everyone is much much more than they appear, don't assume to know anything about their innerworkings, or their motivations.
  20. You may or may not have meant to cause any offense, but this truly did piss me off too.

    Don't make assumptions, its clearly wrong, and this could make someone step over the edge, just because someone says something beforehand, doesnt mean they wont do it. I know several people who've tried to kill themselves, and beforehand, did tell me, today, I live knowing someone I know and loved DID commit suicide, and he told me beforehand, so don't go making assumptions towards this SENSATIVE and DELICATE subject. It has already cheesed me off, but if no offense or harm was intended, then yeah, I can't say no offense taken, because I took this as an offense, and a harmful indictation. Yaya, im talking jiberish! :D

    Anyway, point is, don't judge a situation because you never know the outcome.
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