organized labor unions in the U.S.

[hellwithhugewounds]

I bet everyone in the states know that the big 3 Detroit car makers almost collapsed. While the govt was still debating whether or not to bail them out, news organizations (if you can call fox news a news organization) were blatantly calling for de-unionization and painting unions as the source of the problem.

I thought the U.S. wasn't anti-union anymore, hasn't been for like half a century, but the public would not have allowed these news organizations to insult (or what i consider insults) unions to that extent if they are as pro-union as I am. There must be some public support for de-unionization for news organizations to voice this opinion.

I thought arguments against the legitimacy of unions was off the table in the U.S., but apparently it's not.

What do you think? Are unions good or bad and why?
(Interpret "good" and "bad" however you want, within the boundaries of reason, ie don't define "good" as "something that contains butter" :biggrin

 

[JohnADreams]

I think the only reason it was off the table is because they had nothing with which to make a good case for union busting. It seems like the right wing in American will take any disaster they can and turn it into an opportunity to change things to their own liking.

Unions are good in principle. Although there may be some instances where they cause harm to the economy, there is a need for unions to provide a way for workers to demand fair treatment. Without unions, we'd all be working for pennies, in dangerous conditions, with little time off or concern for our well being.

 

[Summer.Rain]

Unions are good in principle. Although there may be some instances where they cause harm to the economy, there is a need for unions to provide a way for workers to demand fair treatment. Without unions, we'd all be working for pennies, in dangerous conditions, with little time off or concern for our well being.

You are 100% right
Unions even though thay are bad for the overall economy
thay are good for people themselfs!
I only wish there were unions in Ukraine becouse nowdays
workers have bearly any rights, many people i know work from 10 to 14 hours
every day just so that thay could servive, and we earn only about 250$
if we do so, me for example cant work more then 8 hours and i have
a real big problem to find any job at all becouse of that

So just for the example, here in ukraine the prices are as high as in europe, but the everage income
is like 1\4 of that in europe, now go live with that :X

 

[Issaccs]

Serves you right for getting greedy.

 

[Aeterna]

What do you think? Are unions good or bad and why?
(Interpret "good" and "bad" however you want, within the boundaries of reason, ie don't define "good" as "something that contains butter" :biggrin

What type of union?

Some workers unions are inherently bad for the workers. The Soviets in Russia that started the Soviet Union (They didn't just make the word up from nowhere) were supposed to be good in principle. However, after the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia, the Soviets gave Stalin the ability to implement the first five, Five Year Plans. Even though the Five Year Plans did bring Russia to an industrial levels, they ended up killing off a lot of people.

The type of unions in the Big Three aren't really that good. However, on the flip side, they're really not that bad either. American Unions are half-way of the type of union I support. They focus on uniting some workers for a specific industry. While it's a good start, I'd rather see a union focus on all workers for a specific industry, if not a union that supports all workers, period. Fighting for your rights as a worker is a good thing, but if you're not going to share said rights with the rest of the workforce, what's the point?

Ultimately, I think the good kind of unions are the ones that inherently democratic, focus on being inclusive rather than exclusive, focus on things like safety and well being before increasing salaries, hourly wages, and overall paychecks, and strive to improve the individual position of each worker as opposed to solely the members of a union.

 

[Bob26003]

The entire right wing is anti labor.........

That is the platform of their party

 

[anonymous51]

Of course unions are evil, why would you give workers rights when their only purpose is to serve their masters? :patriot:

Human rights are there for those who can afford it, that is how it has always been.

 

[Summer.Rain]

What type of union?

Some workers unions are inherently bad for the workers. The Soviets in Russia that started the Soviet Union (They didn't just make the word up from nowhere) were supposed to be good in principle. However, after the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia, the Soviets gave Stalin the ability to implement the first five, Five Year Plans. Even though the Five Year Plans did bring Russia to an industrial levels, they ended up killing off a lot of people.

The type of unions in the Big Three aren't really that good. However, on the flip side, they're really not that bad either. American Unions are half-way of the type of union I support. They focus on uniting some workers for a specific industry. While it's a good start, I'd rather see a union focus on all workers for a specific industry, if not a union that supports all workers, period. Fighting for your rights as a worker is a good thing, but if you're not going to share said rights with the rest of the workforce, what's the point?

Ultimately, I think the good kind of unions are the ones that inherently democratic, focus on being inclusive rather than exclusive, focus on things like safety and well being before increasing salaries, hourly wages, and overall paychecks, and strive to improve the individual position of each worker as opposed to solely the members of a union.

As a former Soviet child, and a child for Soviet parents
I must say that the Soviet goverment and way of life was much
better then Capitalisem in the western countrys.
And while every singel goverment killin people in one way or another
Soviet socialisem killed the weak people just the same as the western
capitalisem SLOWLY BUT SURELY killing too.
the only diffreance is that soviets admited it, and the westerns didnt.

LONG LIVE THE SOVIET UNION! :X

 

[Issaccs]

As a former Soviet child, and a child for Soviet parents
I must say that the Soviet goverment and way of life was much
better then Capitalisem in the western countrys.
And while every singel goverment killin people in one way or another
Soviet socialisem killed the weak people just the same as the western
capitalisem SLOWLY BUT SURELY killing too.
the only diffreance is that soviets admited it, and the westerns didnt.

LONG LIVE THE SOVIET UNION! :X

That statement... was so... incredibly retarded my heart skipped a beat.

 

[anonymous51]

I am sure capitalist countries have killed just as many people as the soviet union, the difference is is that the capitalists let other people do their dirty work for them. Vietnam, the countless civil wars in south america, pol pot, the Al queda, all a result of capitalist organisation.

 

[Summer.Rain]

That statement... was so... incredibly retarded my heart skipped a beat.

dude i beliave in the soviet union, its a shame its no longer there

 

[Random]

LONG LIVE THE SOVIET UNION! :X

Now your posts in the other thread make a little more sense.

 

[Aeterna]

LONG LIVE THE SOVIET UNION! :X

You can't be serious.

Do I need to bring up the Great Purge?
The Gulags?
Shooting down flight 007?
Chernobyl?
The Afghanistan war?
The breakdown of the Soviet economy to fight World War II?

Every government has killed people, I'll whole heartedly agree with you there. However, the difference is that the Western world has largely progressed away from killing off the weak and is working against this.

You can bring up the United States, and I'll say "Fine". However, take a look at Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Canada, Spain, Post-World War II Western Germany, England, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. All social, Capitalist countries, and all far better off then Russia or any of the former Eastern bloc countries.

 

[Summer.Rain]

You can't be serious.

Do I need to bring up the Great Purge?
The Gulags?
Shooting down flight 007?
Chernobyl?
The Afghanistan war?
The breakdown of the Soviet economy to fight World War II?

Every government has killed people, I'll whole heartedly agree with you there. However, the difference is that the Western world has largely progressed away from killing off the weak and is working against this.

You can bring up the United States, and I'll say "Fine". However, take a look at Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Canada, Spain, Post-World War II Western Germany, England, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. All social, Capitalist countries, and all far better off then Russia or any of the former Eastern bloc countries.

Im too tired now to really dig into it but lets say it this way...
you only know about the soviet union from what they teach you in school
while me and parents lived as part of it, so i got advantage here
and i say it was the best time of my life (and my parents)

 

[Aeterna]

you only know about the soviet union from what they teach you in school

I agree...

...because I'm completely incapable of doing my own research, and forming my own opinions. I'm glad that it was the best time of your life, but you still haven't addressed any of the examples I provided.

 

[hellwithhugewounds]

LONG LIVE THE SOVIET UNION! :X

Lol good luck making that come true. Been 18 years already...

 

[hellwithhugewounds]

i say it was the best time of my life (and my parents)

Strangely I actually agree with you on this one. I lived in former communist China for 9 years, and I've gotta say that the sense of community (communist, lol) was really overwhelmingly awesome. Everyone was so generous, much more than here. There's just so much more closeness... and other stuff that I don't quite remember very well.

 

[Summer.Rain]

I agree...

...because I'm completely incapable of doing my own research, and forming my own opinions. I'm glad that it was the best time of your life, but you still haven't addressed any of the examples I provided.

Do I need to bring up the Great Purge?
Same things happened all over the world even in the usa
the only diffrance is that USA couldnt really kill any one so thay
just made them be less the humans (the black people or the indians)

The Gulags?
The Gulags were sort of jails but insted of just feeding the prissioners
like thay do in the usa, thay forced them to work for the benefit of the country!

Shooting down flight 007?
Every one do mistakes!

Chernobyl?
It was in urkaine not the soviet union, and it was an incident actually...

The Afghanistan war?
So? how about USA in Iraq?

The breakdown of the Soviet economy to fight World War II?
Brakedown? how about the great economical fall in the usa?
the soviet union never was even close to it!



Overall as you can see, the soviet union was the same as the rest of the
world with one difference, while in the rest of the world you had to work
8 to 14 hours just so that you could survive.
in the soviet union you worked 6 hours and you could afford EVERYTHING
and im not even talking about all the free stuff (cars, appartnemts, educations, medical treatment, etc)

 

[hammockmonkey]

fuck it.

 

[Aeterna]

Do I need to bring up the Great Purge?
Same things happened all over the world even in the usa
the only diffrance is that USA couldnt really kill any one so thay
just made them be less the humans (the black people or the indians)

The Gulags?
The Gulags were sort of jails but insted of just feeding the prissioners
like thay do in the usa, thay forced them to work for the benefit of the country!

Shooting down flight 007?
Every one do mistakes!

Chernobyl?
It was in urkaine not the soviet union, and it was an incident actually...

The Afghanistan war?
So? how about USA in Iraq?

The breakdown of the Soviet economy to fight World War II?
Brakedown? how about the great economical fall in the usa?
the soviet union never was even close to it!



Overall as you can see, the soviet union was the same as the rest of the
world with one difference, while in the rest of the world you had to work
8 to 14 hours just so that you could survive.
in the soviet union you worked 6 hours and you could afford EVERYTHING
and im not even talking about all the free stuff (cars, appartnemts, educations, medical treatment, etc)

Did you even bother reading the last part of what I wrote?

"You can bring up the United States, and I'll say "Fine". However, take a look at Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Canada, Spain, Post-World War II Western Germany, England, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. All social, Capitalist countries, and all far better off then Russia or any of the former Eastern bloc countries."

That immediately invalidates your point about The Great Purges, The Gulags, The Afghanistan War, and the breakdown of the Soviet Economy to fight World War II.

The Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant was part of the Soviet Union when the incident occurred. Everyone does make mistakes, I'll grant that. However, I'd rather not live in a country that shoots down planes carrying diplomats.