Pope's remarks on atheism and Nazis

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Axiom, Sep 18, 2010.

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  1. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    Oh yeah religions at it again here!

    Anyhow http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

    There is a seven minute video of his speech. If you want, skip to 3:45 and he'll start talking about ww2 and the Nazi party. Basically explaining how the Nazi party discriminated against the human rights of people and how the british people stood and opposed the Nazi part with their lives.

    Nobel and understandable, but for me it's the next part that's slightly dodgy.
    This is what he says after talking about the nazi party

    "Even in our own lifetimes we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. ...""

    "As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

    Well, personally I understand where he is coming from. I understand the moral and ethical positions that a christian has because of the anchor of god and the aspects that are imposed onto humans because of this anchor to god.

    And so he is saying that an athiest,(without this god anchor(connection)) can on the extreme levels not have these moral and ethical boundaries for themselves and be capable for the rational that parallels the Nazi party.

    Which is true in specific cases, for all people of beliefe in God(s)/regligions and ahtiests and whatever. But this sentence is just wrong.
    It's one thing to say someone has the capability for something. It's another to say that without God it is a definite consequence. I'm not being funny, but how narrow minded are you? Because I see a different existence than you, I am ultimatly wrong and destined to discriminate?

    His remark is the most hypocritical remark I have ever read. Does the guy not see how he is doing exactly what he is "warning" people about with the exclusion of god?
  2. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Did you really expect that a religion that veiws child molestation with a "shit happens" attitude and giving contraception to the poor as an ultimate insult to ther deity?
  3. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    Hey I live in hope everyday man :)

    Until tommorrow i Spose now
  4. Tobes

    Tobes Well-Known Member

    He's a religious leader. If he said that an atheist lives just as good a life as a Catholic, there would be outrage among the Catholic population, he would be seen as misguided, and it would probably devastate the religion. He has to say this sort of thing, because it's his duty to preach and uphold Catholic values and views, and not to bring about change and equality and what-have-you.

    It's a stupid thing to say, but I don't see it much different as an American President saying "We live in the greatest country in the world" or a school principal saying "You have to get a good education to succeed in life". It's destructive and discriminative lying that the liar sees as constructive (constructive to the people he/she is trying to help/advise/inspire).

    EDIT: My post refers to Blake's comments re the Pope's, and not the whole 'comparing Atheism to Nazis' controversy.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2010
  5. SweetVitriol

    SweetVitriol Antiquitie's Friend

    As a humanist I find the Pope's comment disturbing to the extreme..
    If anyone would know about Nazi's it would be him, let's not forget about the pictures of little boy Ratzenburger in his Hitler Youth uniform throwing out seig heil salutes (No matter what he says, he had a choice whether to join or not)..Or Pope Pious's turning a blind eye to the Holocaust...

    All this from the leader of an organisation who continually scorn abortion in any circumstances (Even after rape) therefore removing a woman's right to choose what she does to her body..A religion (And I use that word in the loosest sense) which is the richest establishment in the western world with an art collection alone which, if sold could feed, clothe & educate the world's poor many times over...Yet who pimps their lies & fallacies to the poorest, uneducated masses who swallow them whole as a way of believing that someone in this existence will resolve their injustices..
    An organization which allows child abuse and then covers it up & in some cases, promoting the abuser whilst casting out the abused..
    Who says that only men in dresses who hear voices in their head can join their group, outcasting women to the peripheries...
    Who claim homosexuality is a sin (Whatever that may be) yet allow their own to practice it whilst scorning & in some cases, killing others who dare to be..

    Need I go on?
    He is the head of one of the most damaging organizations in this world..If it wasn't for religion & particularly Catholicism, the dark ages would not have happened & we might be a moral compassionate, intelligent & more evolved species who give a fuck about each other instead of the screwed up segregationists we have become..,

    And nothing says Faith in God like 3' of bullet proof glass in his diddy ice cream van of a Popemobile.. If you believed in faith & God, step out so you can hear the screams of your victims rather than ignore them
  6. Tobes

    Tobes Well-Known Member

    I don't have anything to add to the discussion at this point, but I hope the thread doesn't get filled with comments like these as if they had anything to do with the topic, or the Pope himself. Don't get me wrong, I don't like him either, but the attitudes of a 14 year old boy and an 83 year old man are in no way similar.

    Also, from Wikipedia:

    Just wanted to point that out.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2010
  7. Crue-K

    Crue-K Well-Known Member

    Thousands didn't though. There were many adolescents that chose to ignore the conscription and joined the numerous gangs that were to be found in most cities and larger towns, such as the most prominent Edelweißpiraten and Köln Navajo's. Despite what members of the Hitler Youth may say, the did have a choice and they made theirs.
  8. Mystic

    Mystic Well-Known Member

    I often wonder how much more hatred, derision, misery, murder and atrocity is going to be carried out in the name of this book of badly written fiction.
  9. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    I dont think bashing him because of the actions he took when he was a child during ww2 is fair. The german people were under immense pressure aswell. I think that tidbit of how he was part of the hitler youth is irrelevant except that it gives him a unique perspective on that side.

    I know where you are coming from Tobes in reference to it's his duty to have this stance. It's his duty because it's the way of life for this world at the moment, especially for these religions/groups for and opposed religions.

    I guess my comments are coming from a nieve perspective of a different world. Call it, my attempt to bring my world into this world.
  10. Tobes

    Tobes Well-Known Member

    Thank you for that bit of info Graham, I always enjoy learning something new that offers a different perspective on something. Interesting stuff, but I don't think that because he didn't rebel against conscription it means he wanted to be a member. I don't know what the punishment for a teenager avoiding conscription would have been, but I assume it would have been more than a fine.

    EDIT: Ignore my minor derailment guys. Blake's right, The Pope's Hitler Youth days aren't relevant to the discussion.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2010
  11. loser

    loser Well-Known Member

    I had Christian today tell me how inspired she was by pope's message. I have been feeling to ill and I really needed some kindness.
    I am not against religion. I just wish they would stop persecuting and causing trouble for others.
    Pope does not do kindness and tolerance and this visit cost a lot of money.
  12. nolonger

    nolonger Well-Known Member

    Well All I have to say is that the Pope is a complete idiot. But those wouldn't be the words of course, a lot more expletives would be put in :).

    He says that athiests, OF ALL PEOPLE, exert and push their views on others. Um lol? Hello? You're the pope of the catholic church or what ever. You've killed and pillaged for centuries because of your holy views. Pathetic.

    I tell ya, the pope needs to come to australia, we'll send him packing! LOL!
  13. shades

    shades Staff Alumni

    A friend of mine who once stated that the Vatican, then by default the Pope, are the most dangerous entities on the planet is again vindicated by the ridiculous assertion that the Holocaust in WWII can be traced to the lack of belief in religion and is a demonstration of just how dangerous they can be.

    The reason that they are dangerous is because so many "believers" in them will actually take these statements at face value.

    For reasons stated by many above including the lack of a prompt response to pedophile priests, the fact that most wars can be directly laid at the doorstep of organized religion, the continuous barage against homosexuality in many forms and other examples far too numerous to mention, is further proof of the utter hypocrisy and and mindless opinions put forth by said entities.

    How anyone, after hearing such specious statements, can continue to believe and support the Catholic church, is a very appropriate demonstration of complete and concrete insanity.

    Back on topic...using the Holocaust as an example of how non-belief in JC can lead to sheer terror and unjust causes, is exploitative and disgusting.
  14. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    As far as the Hitler youth goes, hindsight is 20/20 and had you grown up in Germany or Austria during the 30's I think you would see things a little differntly, some of you who are most vocal might even have jumped not having the last seventy years of teaching facism is bad, Hitler is the Devil.
  15. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    The Pope comes out with a lot of stupid things that are easy to tear apart.

    However instead of the easy bashing of the mess some of the comments are I think there has been some things that have come out which I agree with.

    I believe the Pope and his cronies are right that England is a neo-athiest country where Christians are mocked, laughed at and often treat like dirt in conversation. Where the good aspects of religion are ignored. He is right that a lot of athiests are more pressing of their views than the modern day christian, they do it in a demeening and almost aggressive way. I'm not athiest nor Christian but I come from a Catholic family where I assure you the athiests in the family are the wankers when it comes to opinion voicing. I went to a Catholic school where those who decided they did not believe in the Churches doctrine went on debate rampages against thin air. The truth is for every 50 students that left that school about 2 or 3 will remain strong Catholics in their youth.

    It takes balls to believe in God in England.

    Pope Benedict and the Vatican are too conservative, too old school for modern day Britain. When someone liberal and willing to make change arrives the British public might open to them a bit more. They arnt going to change for us though, England has a history of being anti-vatican, they will only change when they start seeing the strong Catholic countries lose direction (not long now).
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2010
  16. Xaos

    Xaos Well-Known Member

    I Agree, for the most part.
  17. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    One of the problems with the Catholic Church entering the 21st century is the elders of the Catholic community are in charge.

    The Pope is 83 years old and was brought up in the 30s-50s. As are those around him.

    We may have to wait 20-30 years for these generations to pass and have a Pope who was brought up in a slightly more modern world, but even then it will most likely be out of date again. Maybe if we had a Pope brought up in the 70s and 80s we might have someone more open to change.
  18. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    You bring up a good point Hache: most Catholic clergyman are over 60, and there is a considerable shortage of young priests joining. While Catholicism is expanding rather well in Africa and Asia, these newly converted Catholics tend to be far less associated with the Vatican.

    In any case, the Pope's views are to be expected given his role. However, he and the rest of the church as a whole are clearly out of touch with the rest of the world. Like the sex abuse scandals, these sorts of rants confirm that there is a very insular culture within the Vatican, one more concerned about internal solidarity than about getting with the times or truly listening to their flock.
  19. GA_lost

    GA_lost Well-Known Member

    As a boomer who once said not to trust anyone over thirty, I find it funny people are saying wait for the next generation to change Catholicism. I suspect Catholicism will not change. In some ways, it was more open to change in the sixties than it is now. The people in charge have become more conservative and will only allow the more conservative to become bishops etc.
  20. Hache

    Hache Well-Known Member

    30 is a young age, especially given that the men who generally change society are those who worked their way to the top and are now 35-50.

    You are right about those appointing conservative leaders within the Church, however it is only 4 years since they decided on the Pope and it was clear then that slowly a movement was building towards someone more open to change, it is inevitable but is in the early stages.

    Why would it change in the 60s when nothing that is in need of major revamp today was such a big question then.

    Perhaps the role of women is the only case argued for that time period, however there was far from any equality then in society in general.

    Most things such as contraception, homersexuality and abortion are things that were born out of large 80s movements.

    The problem the Catholic church has is it cant just accept everything that becomes fashion. But this is Britain, a country who historically turned on the vatican to get christianity to tell the story they wanted, or shall we say so Henry 8th could have sex with as many women as he could until they gave him a son.

    In the 60s there were many Catholic communities, many nuns and many priests. Infact I remember in the 90s when every Catholic church in my area had it's own priest. Now it is 1 priest to 4 churches. You can see the failure of christianity in Britain all over as Churches are sold off and converted into houses, or in the case of an old church of england building near my house; a vetinary practice.

    The Nazi comments are too far, but if we read between the lines the vatican knew and perhaps still know the people of Germany do not want this religion, they know our society is a movement against what they believe in. Germany is another country with a history of going against the vatican, another country split between Catholics and Protestants. As I said earlier the change will only come when they start struggling in Catholic dominated countries. They are not going to change to try and win over protestant dominanted lands. Towns and villages in Spain, Portugal, Italy and their former empires still have deep Christian roots. These places are starting to catch up with Britain on matters such as race.

    There are only 8 million Catholics in Britain (God knows how many of them are actually active), the opinion of the British public means nothing to the Vatican and never will.

    8 million out of 1,068,368,942 baptised Catholics.

    The Vatican would rather see the Catholic church die in Britain than change it's doctrine for it. Britain and its nordic friends might not be culturally suited to religion anymore but they weren't Catholic in the first place
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