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Question for the evolutionists

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by me1, Oct 5, 2008.

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  1. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    How did a bee evolve its sting? The mechanism of evolution is said to be random mutations which confer a reproductive advantage to those whom they occur in.
    As a bee's sting kills the bee outright it could not go on to father 'x' amount of children, so how did the development of this sting confer a reproductive advantage?
    At some initial stage of early development the sting might not have killed it outright but merely wounded it a little, hence that bee could have lived to fight another day while those that didn't have this as yet protective accessory were killed by whatever the bee with it stung to protect itself. But, at what point did the sting become so destructive (to the bee) that it killed it outright and how did this later stage of advanced development proliferate throughout the species when the bee or bee's that had it were by now being killed on the spot because of it, without ever being able to reproduce?
  2. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Only the queen and king bees reproduce. Worker bees sting.
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    Although this has already been correctly answered, I thought I'd just add this (from Wikipedia) as I found it an interesting question... (I also like the fact that the answer doesn't focus on the good of the individual bee but on the good of the hive as a whole)

  4. To the OP -- Do you purposely set out to be redundant in your repeated Conspiracy Theory Soap Box Threads - or are you just NATURALLY thick/obtuse??

    Is THIS (one, or the other) what is keeping you alive??!


    (To each their own, I guess...But what a goddamned hypocrite and waste of time - Everything you argue for means you too should NOT be here! NOT that this would bother any of us in the least...And even if you were here and we were not - YIPPEE!!!)
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2008
  5. bleach

    bleach Well-Known Member

    Male hive insects are haploid whereas females are diploid. One female creates the entire hive, by mating with one male and storing his sperm inside her body for years. She reproduces thousands of (female, diploid) drones by using the same sperm. This creates thousands of bees that are about 75% related to each other, because the male gametes only have one copy of each chromosome to contribute. Since children are only 50% related to their parents, and all living things exist to reproduce their genetic material, it is actually in the drones' best interests NOT to reproduce and instead to spend their lives providing for the queen and allow her to pump out more drones. This includes sacrificing themselves to protect her. (There is also one mammal species, the naked mole rat, that lives in hives and has this same genetic situation.) Occasionally the queen produces a new queen or new male, which promptly fly off to start their own hives, since the queen needs to produce viable offspring to keep her own bloodline going.
  6. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    God DAMN! I need me a cold shower after that lesson in the birds and the
    bees :biggrin:

    only joking, your knowledge is very impressive. the original post is ok I guess.
    not sure I get the point. I got your post ok. not the first one so much. if it's an
    evolution vs creationist debate, it's been done. to death actually........oh well
  7. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Now now, no need to get hostile, Arthur just has invested a great deal of money in shares for Tinfoil hats.
  8. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    what's all this about tinfoil hats? harumph. I didn't get a tinfoil hat.
    Damme Sir! I'll not stand for that.
  9. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    you get a tinfoil hat? i didn't get no tinfioil hat.
  10. JohnADreams

    JohnADreams Well-Known Member

    More and more, bees sound like the trailer park trash of the insect world.
  11. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    did you get as tinfoil hat? I don't get it. tinfoil hat?
  12. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    He just means Arthur is so stupid that he feels the need to protect his head from spreading his brainwaves around too much, so people won't be able to read his mind.

    In actuality, however, it was a good question and it's remarkable that some of you gang up on him like this. And actually, science has not gotten everything right. It's pitiful to see those who look down on people who do not follow science to the letter.
  13. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    I don't think I was involved in any ganging up. He misunderstood the biology of the situation, and I did my best to correct this.
  14. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I didn't mean you, I meant FoundAndLost1 and Ivan Isaacss.
  15. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    I wasn't ganging up on him. I don't know what the hell he's on about,so
    how could I take exception with it? I was just trying to be funny. as always,
    it's a shot in the dark. 99.999% of time, me go for laff, no get. there is a rare
    occasion where it lightens the mood. didn't work this time, OBviously.

    if the point is that scientists aint quite got it nailed and neither do creationists,
    then, yup. bingo. even if open minded creationists and scientists
    the world over converge and begin to have peace talks and donuts and whatnot,
    we still aint gonna know the real score. is not life so complex
    that it simply cannot be explained to a gnats ass? if there is a God, he one
    scientific mofo!

    I was not ganging up. I did not know the signifigance of tinfoil hat and
    thought it was comedy of one version or another and simply went with
    my moronic instincts :)

    sorry if I was offensive :blink:
  16. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    I didn't mean you, either... -_-; I knew you were joking.
  17. HappyAZaClaM

    HappyAZaClaM Guest

    oh :blink:

    nevermind :biggrin:
  18. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    I have never heard that term before. I thought the males were called drones?
    However, it still does not answer the question about -how- the bee evolved it's sting?
    I have since read that only honey bees have this form of stinger. Other bee's either have a smaller barb which isn't detrimental to the individual or no barb at all. Would it not make more sense for the bee's to have a stinger which doesn't kill the individual as they could continue to preserve the intregity of the colony?

    The barb itself is only a problem if the bee sting's a mammal and the bee is said to pre-date the mammal by millions of years, so clearly the barb when it originally came about would not be fatally 'flawed' at this time. But, why has it not evolved to be non fatal to the individual in the millions of speculated years of co-existence? Again, would it not be advantageous to ALL of the colony for those that protect it to remain alive?

    p-s Found, if by 'obtuse' you mean asking questions and not simply accepting, verbatim, every word i am told then i am happy for you to continue viewing me as 'obtuse'.
  19. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Workers are female.

    King (drone) bees are quite rare in a colony. Only one in several thousand is a king (drone) bee.

    A large barb causes more pain; this increases the chance that predators will leave the beehive alone. If they can convince the predator that attacking the beehive is a very painful proposition with a single death, that's way better than the thing taking a swipe at the hive, killing hundreds.

    It's because the barb is large and very painful that they die. The level of pain wouldn't be similar with a non-lethal barb.

    Also, worker bees are quite expendable. They die in a lot of other situations as well. I'm also supposing that a predator is likely to kill a bee in the situation where the bee feels the need to sting. If it's going to be crushed anyhow, it doesn't matter whether the barb is self-lethal.

    Edit: Whoa, I've been using words wrong. Males are called drones; the workers are called workers. And the phrase "king bee" has no scientific basis.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2008
  20. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Actually the bee dies because when it stings a vertebrate the sting and its venom sack are pulled free, meaning that more venom is pushed into the predator even after the bee is dead or dying.

    As such delivery of one sting is all that is needed as all its venom will be pushed into the wound.
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