Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by RiskfulSubject, May 28, 2014.
Why do people who want to commit suicide go on murderous rampages? Please discuss.
My thoughts - Because they do not know their soul, they have not discovered life's true meaning, they cannot handle disappointments that come along and which are part of life, they believe their life should be like they've grown up watching on TV or the movies, they have unrealistic expectations, and they are frustrated by all of this but the decider is that they have decided the conclusions that make sense to them about it all are real, and think they have to make a response of some kind - in the end, their soul cannot cope with the weight of all they believe is not working for them and SOME (not all) suicidal people want to take revenge on what they've come to believe is a cruel and unfair world, they are so angry inside and this sort of revenge is, for them, a sort of 'pay-back'....... a few minutes of twisted "enjoyment" (their thwarted power release?) before the inevitable point of no return.
To answer your question simply, no one knows because you cannot get into that persons mind. Hence you end up with a lot of hearsay and rhetoric about “films did it” “music is the cause and root of all evil”.
However a study showed that only approximately half of those who killed others actually committed suicide (source Wired: Why Spree Killers Kill Themselves) to quote the article:
According to my findings, the shooter’s likelihood of committing suicide or suicide by cop appears to be 1.16 times higher (controlling for the attacker’s age and sex) for each additional victim that is killed. This suggests that those who have the most rage toward others – and therefore end up killing the most victims – would also feel the most guilty and ashamed about their crimes. They are therefore more likely to engage in “self-punishment” via suicide or suicide by cop. After the initial explosion of rage causes them to open fire, active shooters who see many dead or dying victims around them may feel a correspondingly higher need for self-punishment than shooters with fewer victims.
The next point one could raise is the ease of access of guns, take the UK where I live. 77% of mens death aged between 20 and 48 is from suicide, yet there have been no rampages etc mass shootings. Of course I realise the gun debate is a separate issue but take away the means you take away the ability.
I would recommend watching the Michael Moore film Bowling for columbine which explores the relationship of violence in music and films and relation it has to the killers mind. Of course you cannot discount the disconnection one might feel in the moment from society which removes inhibitions
It will always be a debate that will rage on, and I am sure there are plenty of opinions it is best to listen to the ones that offer a logical debate and not just blame a subversive culture of music and films, how about the macho culture amongst men that stops men seeking help for their issues for fear of looking weak?
Anyway sorry to ramble, take it easy
sometimes its political or religious driven
look at suicide bombers... same thing isn't it? take out as many people before going down in blazes of "glory"
Nope two separate things suicide bombers are acting on a fundamental martyrdom basis where as say someone who kills his or hers classmates are acting on several psychological levels of triggers. For example a suicide bomber is acting on faith and may be brain washed. But has this kid been brainwashed too? Have they acted in a disconnected or faith basis.
It does go back to the two types if you like of suicide, those who kill themselves not because of mental illness but because they simply see no other way, and those who die because of their mental illness. But again that is off topic so I will leave it there
When I consider suicide, I always consider taking other people with me.
Because I'm a female, people believe I'd never do it. If I want to have a serious discussion about rampage/suicide in online forums, I usually have to pretend I'm a guy. Pretending I'm a teenage guy gets an even better response and sometimes even gets me fangirls.
I can't speak for other shooters and why they did what they did, but if I did such a thing, it would be for one reason alone: To have some fun before I died.
I hesitate replying to this thread, but...I think I'm going to bite.
I'm guessing this is posted because of what recently happened?
Everyone is different. We can't possibly know what is going through everyone's mind when they commit suicide or homicide. Books try to put everyone in narrow boxes, but I've learned the hard way that those boxes are narrow. There could be a variety of reasons.
In many cases, it is likely because the person feels disillusioned or agitated by society. Anger at it builds up within them. The suicidal person often isolates, which makes him or her grow even more agitated by society. He or she may grow to even loathe society. This anger finally gets released. I wrote my term paper in Abnormal Psychology about this. One thing I touched on was lack of knowledge about the warning signs, and the state of mental health care in some countries.
When I ask people to listen to my ramblings because I'm lonely, I always get the same tired, frustrating replies.
What meds are you on
Talk to your therapist
What they fail to realize is neither of those are a possibility for me. I don't have insurance, I am given a quote that is 200 dollars. My monthly rent is 300. We make 10,000 a year (BEFORE taxes). You do the math. We don't qualify for medicaid. My Lamictal was up to 300 a month (200 with the 'discounts'). I couldn't afford it. I got into state appointed therapy. This is the state of mental health in the US: I was given eight sessions to 'get better'. I only made it to three. My therapist retired without telling me. I was called the day of my appointment, literally hours before I was to go. I was told they'd assign me to a new one. My mom and I called. They hadn't. They still hadn't the second and third time. They never called back. I was told I could go into 'crisis'. This is a slap in the face to those with mental illness. The mental health care system in the US sucks. People don't want to admit it, but it does.
Experiencing this can lead to that built up anger toward society rising. Until the person lashes out. It's a combination of anger, indifference to humans, indifference to oneself, and frustration because they know something is wrong and yet no one will help. And often times, the signs are ignored. There was one shooter (the one I focused on in my essay, I'll spare details to avoid triggers) who showed VARIOUS warning signs that no one took seriously.
It would be totally unfair to blame mental illness. Sadly, that's what people do. The real reason is far more complex than that.
ETA: It might sound like I'm empathising with them. I guess I kind of do. Don't distort my words, though. I don't condone what they do. I just... understand that built up frustration, that built up anger, and being ignored every time you cry - freaking PLEA and BEG - for help.
You can always chat with me if you want. I'm an asshole, and I'm fucked in the head, and I'm almost guaranteed to make you feel worse, but if you can't find someone sane to chat with, I'm here for you.
I used to "freaking PLEA and BEG" for help when I was younger. Now, I'm just one of those moody loners who keeps everything to themselves. I don't condone mass-murder from an ethical point of view either... I just don't care when people do it. My empathy died years ago.
To the Original poster -
I am unsure anybody can answer your question. There are certainly generalities and statistics that many have in common however it is like anything else - at some point it comes down to an individual level and their own thought process.
(*edit - the following is purely 100% opinion and I am not stating any as a fact - just my opinion regardless of how it reads)
I personally do not really think it is much of a stretch for many suicidal people. If you are willing to kill yourself you already have a low regard for life which is the first barrier to killing in general. If you are willing to kill and seriously contemplating it the who becomes less important since you have already justified in your mind that sometimes somebody is better off dead or the world is better off with somebody dead. With tis very large barrier removed it simply becomes a question of how or in what way the willingness to take a life proceeds and the anger that is involved. While some minority of the suicidal types are purely sad/depressed/hopeless despair I truly believe there is a substantial amount of anger in most as well.
I see it very clearly here on the boards - even if it is not said directly and even when it is followed by the proclamation of not wanting to hurt other people there is very often a clear indication that a large part of the suicidal urge and thought process involves "i will show them" "I will teach them a lesson for not listening" "they hurt me so I want them to be sad and to cry" - many times it reads like that is the biggest reason people on here are suicidal - to get even with the boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/friend/family member/mean people etc etc. That is why the texts and phone calls and certainly why the notes even when it is to say not to blame themselves the real point is you really want everybody to know why and that is because you really want the people you feel wronged you to be blamed and to know it was their fault and to direct the anger and sadness you hope follows. It is not even uncommon to say directly I am doing it because of this person or this situation - because you want people to be blamed and hurt and that is purely an anger or revenge motive. (as a side note I also happen to think ultimately that is pure crap - the only person ultimately responsible for suicide is the person committing suicide- they are reacting and it is their choice to react in that way and all of this applies equally to "me" as to you or them - just interchange pronouns as I have been there and am there myself sometimes).
Once a person has diminished the value of life to the point they are willing to kill (even themselves) then they combine that with the anger and want to hurt other people, it does not seem at all surprising to me that they go on a rampage and kill others as well. I am willing to bet the biggest reason that more do not is the last very common part of the typical suicidal mentality is what prevents it from being genuinely common placed - that is the desire for sympathy and to be seen as the victim since it is pretty clear that you will lose the victim and sympathetic status as soon as you go that route. So the urge to hurt people and anger gets balanced by the desire for sympathy and compassion that we might feel is missing in our life- sometimes the second part loses in that internal battle and the result is the rampage .... Even then that is often anger winner the battle and the urge to hurt some people the most by making them feel like it is "their fault".
(and one last time to be clear- YOU I THEY WE - just pronouns and apply to generalities including me and others but nobody specifically - just my thoughts - and all is just my thoughts with no basis of claiming as fact, purely my opinion)
to some nights-and your post on healthcare - if the numbers you are giving are accurate please feel free to PM me as somebody is giving you very inaccurate information on what programs you do or do not quality for and I would be happy to help you get it corrected.
I just read the source article that Perfect Melancholy is quoting from. See the part in bold. The author is equating the severity of a murderer's rage toward others with how large the death toll ends up. Does anyone else think this is a weird thing to do?
I don't think the final death count has much to do with how angry the shooter is! A lot of the recent shootings ended once the police arrived, not because the shooter had run out of rage. I'm certain the shooters would have continued to kill people if they hadn't been cornered. The final death count seems more to do with the skill of the shooter than the severity of his rage.
That source article also says, "Hopelessness is one of the most common reasons why people seek death." Really? I thought that was pretty obvious. LOL.
Please don't think I'm attacking you, Perfect Melancholy, for posting that quote. It's just that I'm not a fan of Adam Lankford, the author of that article.
I think that's very true. I also think that many non-suicidal people think about murder but don't commit it because the idea of spending their life in jail or committing suicide isn't appealing. What I mean is, I don't know if it is really empathy for other human beings that stops many murders or if it's just plain selfish self-preservation.
There are some mass-murderers who seem to say "I never wanted it to be like this, but society pushed me too far" and others who seem to say "Killing people would be fun, and since I'm going to die, there'll be no consequences for me, so I may as well indulge myself".
None offence taken I have no idea whom that guy is just found it an interesting opinion piece.
I'm just curious to any American on here, even considered a gun ban might help reduce the number of mass shootings? I'm British and yes I understand the right to bear arms etc, but surely in the natural evolution of society it is time to review that?
Probably because they think as they are going to kill themselves afterwards it wont matter to them how many people they take with them as they wont be around to be arrested charged and sentenced to mandatory life (or better still execution as in some US states)
I will keep it simple and polite and say - no- and since the number of shootings does not outweigh the number of murders in other ways in other places no, it does not save lives. Quick factoid - the most commonly used instrument in murder last year- out numbering rifles 8 to 1 in the US last year was a hammer and the most commonly used weapon in violent crime by a huge amount is a baseball bat. Because some countries outlawed guns many years ago for purpose of population control and to maintain complete control of the populace it has become common belief that there is a problem with guns but clearly baseball bats and hammers are substantially more dangerous and since there are over 300 million civilian owned guns in the US they are never going away and are in fact just as common place as baseball bats in most rural areas. I will admit to getting a laugh when a friend of mine visited from UK last year and saw gun stores on the street in town and found out Walmart and such stores sells guns as well as fishing poles... The ridiculously small number of people killed in such a way simply gets a lot of press around the world and the actual danger from gun crime is very very small (except on made for tv shows and movies). In the days since that has happened I promise more than 8 people have been killed in California by some other way than firearms by upset people and murder suicides - they just do not make the news even though they are just as dead... While this is completely off topic i would suggest looking a few hundred miles to your southeast at what used to be Yugoslavia and the number of people killed there because the militia were the only ones with guns .... that is not a 3rd world country and not 100 years ago and not the other side of the world yet 10's of thousands died and it required peacekeepers from all over the world to settle - all because only the government had guns ...
More guns than people. The government wouldn't be able to afford a Buy-Back.
Without entering the gun rights debate, I can show that the "quick factoid" is not a fact--
U.S. Census Bureau, Statistical Abstract of United States, Table 120: Deaths by Selected Causes, 2007.
Assault (homicide) 18,361
by discharge of firearms 12,632
Intentional self-harm (suicide) 34,598
by discharge of firearms 17,352
*page 27 in pdf / p.89 in printed doc. Compare versus total deaths from all causes, 2.4 million, in Table 19 of same doc., p. 19/81.
Link to pdf at census.gov: http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/12statab/vitstat.pdf
Rifles weren't counted separately, but since two-thirds of all murders were by gun of some kind, it cannot be true that hammers are the most common weapon. My impression is that handguns figure more than long guns in both murder and suicide. Violent crime overall includes many things besides murder, such as simple assaults that happen when people get in fights. Perhaps baseball bats are in fact more common in such non-fatal affrays.
This debate is settled by shouting, so I will concede that guns are here to stay in the USA. That the Supreme Court has declared the Second Amendment protects certain gun-related rights for individual citizens is not trivial.
Returning to OP topic, I generally agree with NYJump, about the difficulty of the subject and about how easy a transition to low regard for others' lives is once a decision to take your own life has been made.
This still leaves the problem of defining just what "regard for life" means in the first place. I suspect that compunctions against killing stem more from fear of consequences than from any holy righteousness, which some other posters here also seem to think.