Re: GOD

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by FoundAndLost1, Dec 20, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Someone in the "Positive Feelings..." section had posted a declaration that God never abandons his children... I very much beg to differ with this (IMO) delusional and naive position, as if it were an undeniable fact. It was suggested that I put my reply in this section instead...

    I am NOT anti-God, NOR do I belive that faith is necessarily a bad thing. But I AM against tunnel vision that denies the ULTIMATE REALITY that there is, and always was so much suffering and injustice, and that many religions, in many instances throughout history have done nothing but create an "Us and Them" mentality in their simplicity.

    This is not flaming, nor a personal attack, singling out the writer of that "declaration"... but a challenge to explore and acknowledge the reality of the Human Condition. Likewise, I did not use Christ as an example to mock faith, but rather, again, to show that even this person, so revered by many, experienced in FULL MEASURE unfathomable pain, pure despair, and yes, even utter hopelessness and ABANDONMENT...

    Furthermore, I was sincere when I said, I really want to know! That goes for anyone who simply explains away the misery that exists in this life with some trite remark, without thinking. And using belief in Christ as an example would better be accompanied by the same endeavour to cultivate the ultimate COMPASSION that he exemplified - for he engaged in and understood "the underbelly of life" when he was alive. He did not deny it...!

    * * *

    Re: God

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Light_In_The_Dark
    Im Protestant Reformator... God helped me a lot. I prayed and went to church, and He really helped me... God never abandons his children!

    We're ALL God's children!!!!! If we are never abandonned, how do you explain child molestation, lifelong debilitating mental illness, suicide, horrible inhumane (inhuman) torture, slavery, women forced into prostitution, crippling poverty, people that starve to death daily, thousands of orphans whose parents died of AIDS, rape, spousal abuse... or do you believe that only "certain people" are deserving of such suffering that exists now as it always has??

    I REALLY want to know!

    For even Christ on the cross asked woefully "Father! Why have you abandonned me?"
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2007
  2. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member


    when Christ was on the cross he had taken on sin, everyones sin.. therefore God could not look at him because he had sin on him.. he took on our sin..

    does God abandon us?? very good question as i feel he has abandoned me because of everything that has happened to me and that is continuing to happen to me.

    am i in sin?? of course.. people sin every day we are not perfect..


    heck i dont even know if this is the answer you were looking for or not but.... maybe someone else with more knowledge can tell us..
     
  3. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    I know the passage you are talking about when you say Christ felt abandoned by God. The truth is, when He said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", He was not speaking for Himself, He was quoting scripture from the Old Testament. He was actually quoting the first line of Psalm 22 in order to show that He had fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah.

    Please read the psalm below. As you can see, it literally prophesies in graphic detail what would happen to Him during his trial and death. Note especially the parts in bold, which describe exactly what was done to Jesus and the results. Note that the end result is a message of hope and of the triumph of the Lord over evil.

    1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from the words of my groaning?
    2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, and am not silent.

    3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the praise of Israel. [a]

    4 In you our fathers put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them.

    5 They cried to you and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

    6 But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by men and despised by the people.

    7 All who see me mock me;
    they hurl insults, shaking their heads:


    8 "He trusts in the LORD;
    let the LORD rescue him.
    Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him."


    9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
    you made me trust in you
    even at my mother's breast.

    10 From birth I was cast upon you;
    from my mother's womb you have been my God.

    11 Do not be far from me,
    for trouble is near
    and there is no one to help.

    12 Many bulls surround me;
    strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

    13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
    open their mouths wide against me.

    14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
    My heart has turned to wax;
    it has melted away within me.

    15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
    you lay me in the dust of death.

    16 Dogs have surrounded me;
    a band of evil men has encircled me,
    they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.

    17 I can count all my bones;
    people stare and gloat over me.

    18 They divide my garments among them
    and cast lots for my clothing.

    19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
    O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

    20 Deliver my life from the sword,
    my precious life from the power of the dogs.

    21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
    save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

    22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
    in the congregation I will praise you.

    23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
    All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
    Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

    24 For he has not despised or disdained
    the suffering of the afflicted one;
    he has not hidden his face from him
    but has listened to his cry for help.

    25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
    before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

    26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    they who seek the LORD will praise him—
    may your hearts live forever!

    27 All the ends of the earth
    will remember and turn to the LORD,
    and all the families of the nations
    will bow down before him,

    28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
    and he rules over the nations.

    29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
    all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
    those who cannot keep themselves alive.

    30 Posterity will serve him;
    future generations will be told about the Lord.

    31 They will proclaim his righteousness
    to a people yet unborn—
    for he has done it.


    Jesus quoted this text because the Hebrews who were present would have immediately recognized the quote and would understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy from the Old Testament, proving to them that He was the Messiah.

    This passage confuses many Christians and non-Christians alike, as they believe that Jesus had lost faith in God and was in despair, when in reality, He was pointing them toward an old prophecy and showing them that it has been fulfilled.
     
  4. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    Exactly. It was in the "Positive Feelings" section. Getting your panties in a twist serves no one. Especially not you.

    Believe what you want. Including, apparently, some strange idea that what you see and believe is in fact reality, and that you're on some mission from, err, God(?) to set poor, benighted souls straight.

    Must be nice to have no self-esteem issues, I'll grant you that.

    Under the right circumstances I certainly can be. But what you're responding to ain't those circumstances, not even close.

    Wow, so you're the final arbiter of ULTIMATE REALITY now. In allcaps, no less. Do your superpowers come with a cool uniform, ULTIMATE REALITY MAN®? Do you get royalties from the action figures? :rolleyes:

    Lookit, at our present level of knowledge physicists can't even come to any final conclusions about the nature of the physical universe and you're here making claims about "the reality of [capital H] Human [capital C] Condition?" Haven't we just exited a century where millions were ground into dust because some thought "the reality of [capital H] Human [capital C] Condition" implied that Armenians should be marched into the desert, Jews into gas chambers, making pyramids out of skulls is all in a day's work in Cambodia, etc., etc., ad nauseum?

    Arrogance like yours not only takes my breath away, harnessed to the "right" set of beliefs it scares the crap out of me.

    Don't wanna do the Jesus thing, don't do the Jesus thing. (I don't.) Why somebody else choosing to do or not do the Jesus things sets you off into yet another ALLCAPS orgy is the question you should be asking yourself, from where I'm sitting. Though I guess as the final arbiter of ULTIMATE REALITY you never second guess yourself?

    Taking off your ULTIMATE REALITY MAN**® uniform for a moment, can you at least acknowledge you might be attacking a straw man here? One post on a message board does not a philosophy of life make, after all. Especially in a sub-forum designed for, well, positive messages?
     
  5. Anastasia, that's an interesting quote from Psalms - I hadn't read that one before. However, I'm wondering if you're claiming (it seems) that he, Jesus, had the presence of mind during his suffering to quote aloud the *entire* passage while he was hanging on the cross? And who or what are the "bulls of Bashan"?

    "15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
    you lay me in the dust of death."

    Isn't this admitting defeat?

    I'd also be interested in your views re: my initial question...

    "If we are never abandonned, how do you explain child molestation, lifelong debilitating mental illness, suicide, horrible inhumane (inhuman) torture, slavery, women forced into prostitution, crippling poverty, people that starve to death daily, thousands of orphans whose parents died of AIDS, rape, spousal abuse... or do you believe that only "certain people" are deserving of such suffering that exists now as it always has??"
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2007
  6. White Dove, thanks for your reply...

    When you write this -
    "when Christ was on the cross he had taken on sin, everyones sin.. therefore God could not look at him because he had sin on him.. he took on our sin..

    does God abandon us?? very good question as i feel he has abandoned me because of everything that has happened to me and that is continuing to happen to me.

    am i in sin?? of course.. people sin every day we are not perfect.."

    ...are you saying that God cannot look on any of us because we all have sin? Is that your view of God? Aren't you saying in effect that God has abandonned all of us? (And doesn't contradict The Sermon on The Mount...?) I'd be interested in reading your reply...
     
  7. Last, but not least - gmork (sigh) - it makes me smile secretly that I apparently p*ss you off so much.

    I rather enjoy reading your sarcastic rants, which you put SO much effort into.

    I think it's a shame however that you perceive an observer who asks questions as arrogant, and a threat to you (you said I scare you). My "self-esteem", as you put it, is based on not accepting the status quo - whereas others may not challenge it. And I am not the only one and never have been. If that is my "mission" (or part of it), then so be it.

    ...Also, I in fact, started this NEW thread to invite others who were interested to do the same and/or to get their views on the initial question I put forth (which you have not bothered to address. But you accuse me of being off-topic)...

    Furthermore, Jesus does not particularly "set me off", if you'd actually bothered to read the context I used his example in.

    As for the scientists you make reference to (who will never, of course, know all there is to know about the universe - but have for the most part been inspired by perpetual curiosity), they have also long questioned the status quo, and have formerly been shunned if not persecuted for their endeavours, continual questions, studies, and explorations. Likewise, those who thoughtfully have and do continually observe and study The Human Condition (which includes, yes, THE ULTIMATE REALITY of the existence and nature of suffering). The work of observing The Human Condition does NOT include your examples of genocide as a *rationalization* for these attrocites - but acknowledges them and asks the far deeper question - WHY they occur...

    Lastly, whatever was it that made you presume that I am a Man??

    You're precious - you really are!
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2007
  8. Crue-K

    Crue-K Well-Known Member

    God does not exist, period.
     
  9. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member


    i dont really know what your looking for in a reply from me but...

    when you say God can not look on any of us because we all have sinned my answer is : all have fallen short of the glory of God.. we all have fallen short of his glory as we all have sinned.. we come back to God by coming into contact with Jesus blood ( baptized ) into Christ.. when we sin after being in contact with Christ blood we can then ask God for forgiveness of that sin.. back in the old days before Christ the blood of lambs and goats could not take away the sin, it could only prolong ( put it off ) for one year.. Christ on the other hand takes away our sin. he was perfect sacrafice for us.. the perfect lamb.. when you come into contact with his blood then all your sin is gone.. if you sin after coming into contact with his blood then you go to him in prayer and beg and ask for his forgiveness and help to keep you from doing that sin again..

    is that my view of God?? My view of God is that he is a forgiving and loving God.. he will accept all who come home to him.. He wants all to come to him.. He does not wish for any to suffer or hurt but he also does not go against a persons free will.. so how come so much pain, suffering, etc???? well God does not cause these things.. men do.. it is their free will to do these things.. God does not have someone rob a bank, kill, steal.. they chose to do it. could God stop it? yes perhaps but to do so he would interfer with mens free will..

    what puzzels me the most is what happened to JOB, God allowed it to happen, but Satan had to ask God for permission to do it.. Satan had to get Gods permission to hurt JOB.. He could not touch JOB without God giving him the say so to do it. Job was a righteouse man so satan had to ask Gods permission before hurting him because JOB belonged to God.. now those men who did 911 perhaps they were not of God and in that case then satan would not need permission from God to do it.. because if they belong to satan then he dont need to ask...

    i dont know.. what more do you want me to say?? i cant think straight as it is because i wanna die in a few days...
     
  10. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member

    i happen to know he does exsist and you will too on the day you die...

    i died once but was allowed to come back for a little while... you will know what i am talking about when you die.. trust me he exsists and you dont just die and thats it, you body dies but you, your spirit goes elsewhere..

    wanna try it, without dying??/

    do a search on out of body experience or astral travel... you can leave your body and be like a ghost but dont stay away from your body too long or you cant return.. i left my body doing this exercise the other day.. want the link to do it, just pm me for it.. theres no pain when you leave your body.. when i go the next time i come out of my body. i wont return to it and any atopsy will not prove that i did a suicide because it wont be suicide it will simply be me leaving my body through astra travel and not returning to it... want the link. ?? pm me but you better pm before the first cause i leave then..
     
  11. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member

    hey, almost forgot..

    best thing about that astra travel is if they put you in a nut house , lock you up or whatever, it wont stop you from doing it, cause you do it with the power of your mind...

    i have been practicing that lately and it works.. they cant stop you that way unless they can use their own mind and go into your mind somehow and stop which is imposiable cause they would never know how to do it.. cause their not that smart....

    nor do they have the power to do it..

    its like dealing with the supernatural.... you know?????
     
  12. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    The "bulls of Bashan" refers to wild bulls. Jesus is comparing His accusers/executioners to angry, dangerous wild animals.

    You are right in that it does sound like Jesus is in dispair, but the Psalm progresses into joy. Jesus here (His human side) is showing us how even in our darkest times, we can all be assured of God's love and salvation and care at the end. Even though we may be in misery (just like Jesus was here), God has a plan and we will make it through. The end of the Psalm tells of God's ultimate triumph over despair. Yes, Jesus was hurting and in pain, but it all ended in the victory over this despair and pain.

    So, to your original question, we all have challenges in our lives. But those who experience the most challenges reap the most spiritual benefits. Look at people like Paris Hilton. She leads a relatively shallow life with little hardship, and as such, she doesn't develop spiritually as much as those who have more challenges. It is a trade-off. The more difficult your life, the more your soul develops and the more blessed you will eventually be. People with easy lives will have a more difficult time in the after-life, because they will be less spiritually prepared.

    Think of it in terms of sports. If you train less and do very little, you MAY be the quarterback in high-school, but you will never be a pro. However, if you put yourself through rigorous training, you just may be one of the few who actually excel.

    The "lucky", those who are born with everything life has to offer, must work much harder to actually be decent people, to develop emotionally and spiritually.

    If you REALLY want answers, and an amazing perspective on human suffering, please read "Embraced by the Light". It's a fast, easy read and you will NOT regret it. Really cool book and a true story.
     
  13. ybt

    ybt Guest

    "It's a fast, easy read and you will NOT regret it."

    Please, don't do that. Compressing Christianity or any religion into a "fast, easy read" is doomed to disaster.
     
  14. worlds edge

    worlds edge Well-Known Member

    No, no. Your attitude doesn't piss me off, it scares me.

    I assure you, when it comes to this forum, I'm putting more effort into trying to beat h2osmack's high score in Asteroids than in any response I might direct your way. Thus far unsuccessfully, as to the Asteroids. The little flying saucers are friggin' impossible to kill, especially above 20,000 points. :dry: Fortunately what you're presenting is far easier to take apart. And is without a doubt far less intellectual.

    I never said your questions were arrogant; indeed I never said anything about them one way or the other, other to answer them as best I could from my perspective. It was your attitude about ULTIMATE REALITY (your allcaps, not mine) and your arrogance displayed vis a vis ULTIMATE REALITY that I was commenting on, ULTIMATE REALITY MAN.

    Yep, the idea of you having any sort of power over another human being is scary as hell. There's apparently the foundandlost way, and no other.

    And anybody who goes about claiming to have insights into ULTIMATE REALITY is in the back away slowly without turning around category in my book.

    No, you come to a forum where just about everybody feels like shit and start knocking things that might make some people feel better. Very well, then. I retract the "self-esteem" comments and replace them with "intellectual bully." Feel better? Doubtless that term is far more accurate.

    Please define this ULTIMATE REALITY of yours. You were sure throwing the term around in your first post on this thread.

    I said I'm not a Christian, I don't accept Christianity and should a Christian attempt to evangelize me, I'd criticize them freely. However, in this thread we have foundandlost the Evanaglist evangelizing away, and on that basis I'm criticizing you in exactly the same way I'd criticize a Christian.

    I never accused you of going off-topic, I said I thought you'd created a straw man and were attacking it. It sounds like you now agree with me, but lack the intellectual honesty to admit it.

    The way I read your OP on this thread, it sure does. You were doing your patented ALLCAP thingy to beat the band in that part of the thread.

    Sure I did.

    Agreed. Which makes your ULTIMATE REALITY statements all the more silly, doesn't it?

    And they've concluded we can't know ULTIMATE REALITY, at least given current knowledge.

    Is it possible for those who disagree with you to be "thoughtful?" Well, actually it isn't, I would imagine. Since you've that whole ULTIMATE REALITY business nailed down so tight.

    Well, well, o great swami, please inform us great unwashed of this ULTIMATE REALITY then! We wait with bated breath!

    Is this plugged into your ULTIMATE REALITY dealie?

    Anyway, I didn't say it did. I simply noted that people with the mindset that they know ULTIMATE REALITY are the ones who run about committing genocide. And when they get into conflict with another tribe that has another vision of ULTIMATE REALITY, genocide stops and war starts.

    I acknowledge that genocide occurs.

    I've also asked this question myself many times.

    Does this mean I'm also plugged into ULTIMATE REALITY?


    I'll be, if I'm wrong. And I apologize for the unwarranted assumption, assuming you're not a man. My experience has been that only men are as arrogant as you're presenting yourself. I say that as one.

    Not that women can't be every bit as absurd as men. Just that pie in the sky visions of ULTIMATE REALITY seem to be pretty much the province of men.

    Why, thank you. As long as it is not in a gollum-like way that I'm precious.
     
  15. Just_a_guy

    Just_a_guy Well-Known Member

    :laugh:
     
  16. Well said...(tha is, I agree)
    and BTW, I have in fact read that book in the past and took it as one person's experience, not dismissing it, but as one individual's interpretation/point of view within the vast tapestry of 'religious' experiences.
     
  17. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    I'm certainly NOT compressing Christianity in to a fast, easy read (although the 4 gospels are quite brief in comparison to the rest of the Bible). I was merely pointing out a text that has a pretty unique and possibly enlightening perspective on the condition of human suffering, only ONE of MANY aspects of Christianity and humanity in general.

    By the way, something does not have to be long-winded and complicated to carry simple truths. In fact, a convoluted diatribe can obscure and taint what is an otherwise relatively simple message, Christianity being one.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2007
  18. Anastasia, thanks for you reply. I appreciated your ideas about the soul's "evolution" so to speak, through suffering. I realize very much that there is indeed opportunity to learn and grow through life's challenges (spiritually or otherwise) - but they can and have also inevitably shattered the psyche and belief systems of countless, withering the supposed 'progress' a soul might make in but one lifetime ("one lifetime" according to Christianity). Many religions have sought meaning and an explanation for suffering - I subscribe to none of them in their entirety, though I'm somewhat more partial to the Buddhist Philosophy - though even the Dalai Lama, recently asked about overcoming suffering, said that compassion and forgiveness (the lack of which add to our suffering) were paramount, but admitted that he would not know what he himself would be able to do when confronted with the same pain a man had described in having watched his brother be tortured and put to death)

    And as you stated in your first reply, the passage you refer to is confusing "to Christians and non-Christians alike." Psalm 22 is but one of many such prophecies in the old testament and all of them have been used as proof - or disputed - as well as interpretted from varying points of view, countless times. Personally, I see it as a process and not definitive by any means (also, it is only once source for me). I have read the Bible twice and I'm afraid that for the life of me, I do not recall (nor in anything else I have come across) any reference that Jesus recited the entire psalm (which you inferred when you wrote -"Jesus is comparing His accusers/executioners to angry, dangerous wild animals."). Even the four gospels vary in their references to quoting prophecies as I found on this provocative site:

    www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html

    (specifically and especially "Crucification Prophecies")

    Any thoughts?
     
  19. Also well said... though I suppose the ongoing exploration of the doctrines of any faith are, again, a process...
     
  20. White Dove,

    Thanks for your reply

    - Job puzzles me as well - and we're not the only ones. Many times in my life, I feel like I have walked in his shoes (and again, I'm not the only one...)

    - Those suicidal men who perpetrated the acts of 9/11 ALSO believed that they were doing God's work. Here, I'm only saying that horrendous acts have been been executed and justified by many religions (including Christianity...)

    - [when you say God can not look on any of us because we all have sinned] "my answer is : all have fallen short of the glory of God.. we all have fallen short of his glory as we all have sinned.. we come back to God by coming into contact with Jesus blood ( baptized ) into Christ"
    ...what then of all those who were not born into Christianity (which includes the majority of the world's people). Is their perception of their brand of 'salvation'/enlightenment warped and/or wrong? Are they all damned? Don't they cherish what they too believe in their interpretation of their feelings of being connected to God (having many different names and concepts) - all being just as utterly sacred to them...

    - Also, when you wrote:
    "My view of God is that he is a forgiving and loving God.. he will accept all who come home to him.. He wants all to come to him.. He does not wish for any to suffer or hurt but he also does not go against a persons free will.. so how come so much pain, suffering, etc???? well God does not cause these things.. men do.. it is their free will to do these things..."
    ...While infinite suffering is indeed caused over and again by the actions of Man, it is not the only cause for it. There is disease (mental and physical), people born into abject poverty, countless terrible afflictions of the body - famine, drought, floods, earthquakes (which are all natural manifestations and/or cycles of the Earth).

    -- I'm not knocking your particular faith, but asking how you find ways to explain these things. Reply as you wish - I'm not looking for THE answer...
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2007
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.